Putin Bashes WWII Allies

[visionary]

Putin criticizes Allies for Dresden bombing

West ‘didn’t abound with any special humanity,’ Russian says

MSNBC News Services

Updated: 2:59 p.m. ET May 5, 2005

BERLIN - Russian President Vladimir Putin told a German newspaper that Allied forces can’t be absolved of blame for horrors during World War II, and he noted in particular the massive bombing of Dresden in the final months.

Ahead of this weekend’s 60-year commemoration of Victory in Europe Day, Putin, in a joint interview with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, told Bild that the Western forces deserved to be criticized for attacking civilians.

“The Western allies didn’t abound with any special humanity,” the Russian leader said. “It’s incomprehensible to me to this day why Dresden was destroyed. There was no military reason for it.”

The wave of attacks over the city on the banks of the Elbe in mid-February, 1945, killed thousands of Germans in a deadly firestorm. Within weeks, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill distanced himself from the tactic of blanket-bombing German cities, and right-wing groups in Germany have argued the bombing was a war crime.

Putin, who was a KGB spy in East Germany and speaks fluent German, said the civilian population in Germany had suffered greatly during the war but said it was not the Soviets’ fault.

“The Soviet Union or the Red Army can’t be blamed for that,” Putin said in what a Bild editor said was one of the longest interviews Germany’s top-selling daily has ever published. “It wasn’t the Soviet Union that started the war.”

Denying that Moscow was to blame for Germany’s post-war division, Putin said Soviet leaders had worked hard “to preserve the integrity and unity of Germany” after the war. “But some of our allies unfortunately took the opposite position.”

Good neighbors

In an interview to appear in Bild’s Friday newspaper, Putin said that his and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder’s war experiences made Russians and Germans more appreciative of life, freedom and the importance of good relations with their neighbors.

Schroeder, who will go to Moscow next week for ceremonies marking the 60th anniversary of the end of the war in Europe, said it was a “miracle” that the former enemies had become such close allies. President Bush will also be attending the ceremony in Moscow on Monday.

More than 21 million Soviet citizens and 7 million Germans were killed in World War II.

“It’s a miracle in my eyes that such bitter enemies and war opponents are such close friends and partners living together as good neighbors today,” Schroeder said.

“The generation of my parents and grandparents would never be able to imagine that,” added Schroeder, who was born in 1944. “When you consider the horrors of the war, the German-Russian reconciliation is a political miracle.”

Liberation for both nations

Both Putin and Schroeder said the end of the war on May 8-9, 1945 was a day of liberation for Germany.

“My parents suffered very much and never forgot it,” said Putin of the 900-day Nazi blockade of Leningrad. His brother died during it and his father was wounded in combat nearby.

“But as strange as it may sound, there was never any hatred of Germans in my family,” added Putin, who was born in 1952. “My parents said it wasn’t the people or ordinary soldiers who were to blame but the regime that sent them into war.”

Exhausted by hunger and cold during the blockade of what is now St. Petersburg, Putin’s mother fainted and was thought to be dead. His father, wounded and in hospital, rescued her.

“A burial commando put her with a pile of corpses and was taking her to a cemetery,” Putin said. “She was still alive and my father had to pull her out of the pile of corpses. My mother only survived because he then gave her his place in hospital.”

Putin and Schroeder have become close friends in recent years, a bond intensified by their opposition to the Iraq war.

“I was deeply moved when I heard the chancellor’s father was killed on the Eastern front,” said Putin, a regular visitor to Schroeder’s home in Hanover. “That very much touched me emotionally. It dawned on me that this tragedy wasn’t far away.”

Schroeder said that although his generation bore no guilt for the war, all Germans carry a lasting responsibility for it.

© 2005 MSNBC Interactive

© 2005 MSNBC.com

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7749312/

[redman]

I'll have what he's having.

How conveniently he ignores:

1) the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that divided Poland and truly was the "beginning of the war" given that it enabled the September 1, 1939 invasion of Poland (he says the USSR had no part in the beginning of the war;

2) Soviet atrocities against the Germans in the path of the advancing Red Army, including gang rapes of women by soldiers;

3) the destruction of Berlin by three armies who were all competing with each other to reach the Reichstag first, with no other considerations;

Also, if the USSR was so damn keen on a unified Germany, why was East Germany a puppet state for so long? Why blockade Berlin in 1948? Why set up the Berlin Wall? Why not let free travel between the two? The Western Allies allowed free travel between all of their zones, why not yours?

[Kilmer17]

Yes Alex, I'll take "Irrelevant World Leaders desperate for attention so his people dont realize what a ****ty situation they're in" for 1000 please.

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by Kilmer17

Yes Alex, I'll take "Irrelevant World Leaders desperate for attention so his people dont realize what a ****ty situation they're in" for 1000 please.

Who is Vladimir Putin?

That's correct Mr. Punani...

[Riggo-toni]

Good one, K!

[herrmag]

Originally posted by Kilmer17

Yes Alex, I'll take "Irrelevant World Leaders desperate for attention so his people dont realize what a ****ty situation they're in" for 1000 please.

You've hit the DAILY DOUBLE!

[redman]

You know what just occurred to me? The tremendous irony of a Russian President talking about how the Soviets wanted a unified post-war Germany and he's doing the interview speaking fluent German because of his East German KGB that helped to maintain East Germany as a puppet state!

[Funkyalligator]

I believe you're talking about the stasi....Putin was an advisor that worked with stasi from what I remember.....

I also wouldn't call Putin an irrelevant leader.....you might not like him but he needs to be dealt with and in this day and age we will find that we have more in common with him than we think....

[visionary]

I think Poland might have few things to say about Putin's claims in his speech

[Larry]

Originally posted by visionary

Denying that Moscow was to blame for Germany’s post-war division, Putin said Soviet leaders had worked hard “to preserve the integrity and unity of Germany” after the war. “But some of our allies unfortunately took the opposite position.”

[Larry]

I've also read that the soviets had a policy during WWII. Whenever they "liberated" a town from the evil Nazis, the liberators would assemble all the members of the resistance, who had helped defeat the (Nazi) invaders.

Then they'd kill them, because they didn't want anybody in town who had the guts to stand up to an invading army.

(I've also read that the Soviets occasionally had difficulty telling the difference between freed American POWs and fleeing Nazis.)

[Larry]

(However, I will point out, that part of his statement is correct. The concept that a city was a military target because it's part of the enemy's economy was created by Winston Churchill, over the objections of many in the Brittish government.)

[redman]

Originally posted by visionary

I think Poland might have few things to say about Putin's claims in his speech

You mean like the Katyn massacre?

[visionary]

I don't exactly fault Putin for his coments about Dresdin, after all it is nothing too original, people have been complaining about that attack for a long time now (including Kurt Vonnegut and others)...

But the ridiculous irony of the fact that he is the one making this statement and as a way to justify or even sweep under the rug what the Soviet Union did in WWII and afterwards to Germany and their satellites is just outrageous.

That and the fact that pretty much everything he said and replied not relating to Dresdin (and possibly even that bit as well) was a bunch of crap.

[redman]

Precisely - there are ample grounds for criticism of the Dresden bombing. But that pales in comparison to the atrocities committed by the Soviets - all intentionally, and part of their retribution against Nazi Germany - repeatedly throughout the war.

[flyingtiger1013]

:doh:

Pooty-Poot has lost his mind. While Dresden was a tragic event, it was also a total war. I don't think the German's gave a damn about all the civilians being killed in London by bombing and the V1 and V2 weapons.

[Darth Tater]

Well, the west did ally itself with the Soviet Union.

[redman]

Originally posted by flyingtiger1013

Pooty-Poot has lost his mind. While Dresden was a tragic event, it was also a total war. I don't think the German's gave a damn about all the civilians being killed in London by bombing and the V1 and V2 weapons.

Actually, they not only gave a damn, they intended for civilian deaths to break the British will to fight. It of course accomplished the opposite.

[flyingtiger1013]

Originally posted by redman

Actually, they not only gave a damn, they intended for civilian deaths to break the British will to fight. It of course accomplished the opposite.

Sorry if I gave the impression that they were complacent. I meant exactly what you stated.

[Funkyalligator]

The dresden bombing was an accident....a tragic confluence of events led to the firestorm that resulted.......there were legitamate military targets because of ther contribution to the war effort.....the fact that Dreden turned into a huge pile of ash was an accident....

[redman]

Originally posted by Darth Tater

Well, the west did ally itself with the Soviet Union.

Yes, and . . . ?

Remember that that alliance only came about after Germany invaded the USSR in June 1941. Up to that time the Soviets were formally allied with Nazi Germany per the Molotov-Ribbentrip pact, and had even collaborated on invading and dividing up Poland.

Even more humorous (in a dark way) was the fact that the Soviets secretly allowed the Germans to use their land to test their tanks and train their tank crews . . . which of course ended up being like teaching your executioner how to sharpen his axe. One more example of Stalin's incompetance as a leader.

[Darth Tater]

Originally posted by redman

Yes, and . . . ?

That the west allied with Stalin is better evidence of allied attrocities than Dresden. Stalin lead Hitler in DBG by a country mile although Stalin was more into equal opportunity DBG.

[Sarge]

I guess it didn't matter that Dresden had the largest ball bearing plant that remained in Nazi hands at the time?

Fortunately for Pooty, dead men (and women) tell no tales. I refer of course to;

The dead that tried to climb or go under the Berlin Wall for years

The dead the Stasi killed over the years

The dead German women who killed themselves rather than be gang raped by the advancing Red Army

The list goes on

[redman]

Originally posted by Darth Tater

That the west allied with Stalin is better evidence of allied attrocities than Dresden. Stalin lead Hitler in DBG by a country mile although Stalin was more into equal opportunity DBG.

OK, so what's the alternative if we can't ally ourselves with Stalin's Russia to fight Hitler's Germany?

Is the alternative viable if we are to assume that either 1) the USSR would have ceased to exist but for our alliance with them, or 2) that the Soviets would have made a separate peace with Germany (on Germany's terms of course) that would empower Germany to take the fight to us?

Sorry but I don't buy the idea that this marriage of necessity constitutes the West's endorsement of the Soviet system in general or Stalin's regime in particular.

[redman]

And on a related note, more Soviet, er- Russian revisionist history:

Kremlin denies Soviet 'occupation' of Baltics Thu May 5, 7:08 AM ET

The Soviet Union never occupied the Baltic republics at the end of World War II, but took over in a mutual agreement, the Kremlin said in an angry response to EU demands for a historical apology.

"There was no occupation. There were agreements at the time with the legitimately elected authorities in the Baltic countries," the Kremlin's European affairs chief Sergei Yastrzhembsky told reporters.

Yastrzhembsky denounced European Commission vice president Guenter Verheugen for saying earlier this week that Moscow's relations with Brussels would depend on Russia admitting the illegality of Soviet rule in the three tiny Baltic republics -- Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

"I advise those who want to develop constructive relations with Russia to leave the analysis to historians and to experts, and not to bring too many phobias and historical prejudice into current relations between Russia and the European Union," Yastrzhembsky said Thursday.

Verheugen "does not properly rememember the historical situation on which he is commenting."

Soviet authority was first established in the Baltics in 1940, following a secret pact between Stalin and Nazi Germany.

The three republics were then held by German forces between June 1941 and 1945, when the victorious Red Army returned, placing the region under Moscow's control until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. All three republics entered the European Union last year and are members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO).

Demands by the Baltics that Moscow recognise their annexation as illegal have sparked a major diplomatic row as Russia prepares to host world leaders next Monday for the May 9 commemorations of the end to World War II.

The presidents of Lithuania and Estonia, Valdas Adamkus and Arnold Ruutel, turned down an invitation from Russian President Vladimir Putin to attend.

Denmark's Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen also turned up the heat earlier this week by calling on Russia to apologise for the Soviet Union's actions in the Baltics.

US President George W. Bush will enter the fray on Saturday when he meets all three Baltic leaders in the Latvian capital Riga, before flying on to Moscow.