Christians call on Bush Bros. to Save Shaivo

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by chomerics

SHF, because I use the term Bushlevics, I am suited for DU, yet anyone else can use a number of terms to call democrats whatever they feel like?

Seriously, what is the difference between this comment, and someone else calling me a pinko libral commie? Or how about the numberous posters here who have called me an un-American traitor who hates my country and deserves to live in Europe, Or how about the posts which have called her husband pond scum, a murderer, a vile and dispicable man and various other names? Where were you with the PC badge then?

If it offends you I will stop, a simple comment would suffice, but to say this comment is somehow wrong for the tailgate, and to ignore any other comment which promotes your view but is just as vitriolic or derogatory, is well . . . just a bit hypocritical, don't ya think?

Personally I think political name calling pretty pathetic. That is why I try to avoid it.

If I have used any myself, or do, please call me out on it. However I think it just ends up taking away from the topic at hand, and rather then a rational discussion of ideas, it becomes a heated emotional personal issue that just causes friction and allows nothing to get done or discussed. All it ends up being is a he said she said.

We can simply say Congress is wrong in overstepping its Constiutional boundries, or we can say, hey go Congress by trying to save this woman's life. I don't see what is wrong with that.

Look at Congress today. All the bad personal blood that has been spilled the past decade (on both sides, I won't deny Republicans have had a hand in it) has caused this institution to become ineffective and instead of focusing on critical issues, turns the plight of one woman into national news each evening.

If the vitrol that exists in Congress comes down to our level, well quite honestly no consensus will ever be formed and the civil war that DU'ers love to talk about will occur.

I try not to make it personal as best as possible. I try and keep it a battle of ideas, not a personal battle. Terms like Bushlevicks and pinkies and Klinton and fascists makes it personal and then nothing gets done.

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by portisizzle

The legislative branch creates laws that the judicial branch enforces. The judicial branch is not a law creating body. As much as you would like not to admit it.

For example, please find me the "law" that our Congress (read the people)has passed to legalize Abortion..

Sounds like to me we have some pretty activist judges playing the role of the Congress. Including this matter. Remember, we the people do NOT elect federal judges. Agreed?

BTW, my point stands about your rhetoric. If you would spend half the time debating subject matter instead of calling someone out who has "wronged" your manhood, or womanhood, you might have a better reputation on the board.

I don't think you know what this case is about, but I will explain what I know of it in the interest of discussion.

1. Husband has custody of Terri because he is the husband

2. Husband said Terri wanted to die instead of being in a state like she is

3. the Florida ourt agreed with the husband

4. TS's parents get congress to make a law just for Terri so the parents can have a trial at the federal level (this makes no sense since this a state issue, AND because Congress is not supposed to make laws just for one person)

5. Parent's claims are denied at the federal level

6. parent denied at federal appelate level

7. florida legislature refuses to pass law to put feeding tube back

The courts have decided that the husband was right and that there is enough evidence to believe Terri wanted to die, but the fanatics want to go around the entire judicial system and get the executive branch to ignore the laws in existence and to destroy our system of checks and balances. The courts have interpretted the law and made their decision case closed.

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by chomerics

Gee, it lost the election for him, so I guess it did have a difference in the outcome of the race.. What was the hispanic vote for democrats before and after the Gonzalez incident? I'll give you a hint, the difference is much greater then the 1000 or so votes he lost the election by.

Actually the Supreme Court appointed Bush as President in 2000.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

Actually the Supreme Court appointed Bush as President in 2000.

:doh:

We don't have to go through all the re-counts do we NoCal? You are much smarter then that

[DarkLadyRaven]

Originally posted by Cdowwe

I was too lazy to read everyone else's post but Ill post what I believe on the matter. I think it should be up to the parents, dont trust the husband. I mean the guy admits to having children outside his marriage,.

Why trust the parents when they encouraged Micheal to date other women- which in turn makes the whole adultery thing mute and an eliminated point?

They moved in together after Terri's collapse in February 1990, and Michael called the Schindlers ''Mom and Dad.'' A year later, the Schindlers encouraged their son-in-law to get on with his life and date. They even met some of the women he saw.

''I looked at that as maybe he was starting to take a step in the right direction and get his life back together,'' Bob Schindler said in a 1993 deposition. ``He's still a young man. He still has a life ahead of him.''

WORKED TOGETHER

The Schindlers later said that they urged Michael to see other women because they ultimately hoped to gain guardianship of their daughter. But they still worked feverishly with Michael to ensure Terri had the best possible care.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/11215317.htm

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by DarkLadyRaven

Why trust the parents when they encouraged Micheal to date other women- which in turn makes the whole adultery thing mute and an eliminated point?

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/11215317.htm

Yes, Michael himself is such a trustworthy character...isn't he :doh:

*AFFIDAVIT STATE OF FLORIDA ) COUNTY OF PINELLAS )

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA

SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make

this statement of my own personal knowledge.

2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed

continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a

Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.

3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in

Largo, Florida from April 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo

was a patient there.

4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri

Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for

any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial

training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael

Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as

extremely odd.

5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance

whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere

throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation.

Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be

close to Michael, was intimidated by him. Michael Schiavo always

had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as

"This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and

uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you,

getting right in your face and practically shouting.

6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for

Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to

believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens

while I was there. I became concerned because Michael wanted

nothing done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of

motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and

again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no

range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named

Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a

wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together

and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.

7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and

misrepresented by Michael. When I worked with her, she was alert

and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence,

saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in

fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds

of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in

discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n"

sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort

by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal

area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included

pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or

moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a

bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper

and scooted in bed on her bottom.

8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always

recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way

toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a

"hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound

being only a second or two long. When I told her humrous stories

about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle,

sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body,

upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need

to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in

her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but

by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart.

Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's,

someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always

demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in

her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well,

writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would

always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote

so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive

entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job

was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a

patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act,

and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.

9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused

on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?,"

"Has she died yet?" and "When is that ***** gonna die?" These

statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would

make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was

talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I

recall him making include "Can't anything be done to accelerate her

death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would

be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be

given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure

the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word

for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the

end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be

contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that

said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael

immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they

should know about their daughter.

10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her

lungs, colds, or pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled

even, hoping that she would die. He would say something like,

"Hallelujah! You've made my day!" He would call me, as I was the

nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her

temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently

asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!"

and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died,

which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among

other things.

11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the

door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically

be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be

trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold

sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction,

so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low

it was below the range where it would register an actual number

reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This

happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's

blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet

through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected

Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have

any way of knowing for sure.

12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I

became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the

reasons I've said, and other patients, too. There was an LPN named

Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular

concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift,

but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as

"They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact

that it didn't seem to attract any attention. She made many comments

about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it

was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he

complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the

time, too.) Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth

more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to

this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were

cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat."

13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated

by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would

do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at

night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these

phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would

tell me afterward and relay orders from him.

14. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by

and let Terri die without the truth being known.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

<signed>

CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.

The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this 29 day of August,

2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida's driver's license

as identification, and who did take an oath.

<signed Patricia J. Anderson>

Notary Public

My commission expires

<Notary seal of Patricia J. Anderson>

http://www.bluestarbase.org/stanley031805.htm

[DarkLadyRaven]

The Parents encouraged him to date-

What the hells the problem of him having another woman now- if thats what Terris parents wanted for him

- seems to be a damn simple issue -

In short- the other woman does NOT matter

EDIT: This is backed up by Bob Schindler , Terris Father, in his 1993 sworn affadavid

[Henry]

Skinsnut, if that affidavit was strong enough evidence to overrule the husband's custodial rights, they would have been overruled by now. What's your explaination as to why he still retains them? You know something two dozen judges don't?

[portisizzle]

Originally posted by Liberty

I don't think you know what this case is about, but I will explain what I know of it in the interest of discussion.

1. Husband has custody of Terri because he is the husband

2. Husband said Terri wanted to die instead of being in a state like she is

3. the Florida ourt agreed with the husband

4. TS's parents get congress to make a law just for Terri so the parents can have a trial at the federal level (this makes no sense since this a state issue, AND because Congress is not supposed to make laws just for one person)

5. Parent's claims are denied at the federal level

6. parent denied at federal appelate level

7. florida legislature refuses to pass law to put feeding tube back

The courts have decided that the husband was right and that there is enough evidence to believe Terri wanted to die, but the fanatics want to go around the entire judicial system and get the executive branch to ignore the laws in existence and to destroy our system of checks and balances. The courts have interpretted the law and made their decision case closed.

Thank you for the information.

I don't understand point #4, when you say Congress made a law just for Terri? Please elaborate.

And not to make light of the husband here. But if he is more interested in getting on with his life instead of making darn sure that this woman has ever chance possible to recover, how can he possibly be in a position to decide her life or death?

Seems like he would act in a manner that benefits him instead of her. Just my :2cents:

[Henry]

Portis, it's been fifteen years.

Maybe the man needs closure.

Maybe he's trying to honor his wife's wishes.

Maybe he's a jerk.

But really, it doesn't really matter. It's his call.

[flashback]

Originally posted by portisizzle

I don't understand point #4, when you say Congress made a law just for Terri? Please elaborate.

The text of the actual law gives "Any parent of Theresa Marie Shiavo" the right to sue in Federal court.

That's pretty specific, don't you think?

[portisizzle]

Originally posted by Henry

Portis, it's been fifteen years.

It's his call.

What is the doctor's call?

[Henry]

Originally posted by portisizzle

What is the doctor's call?

Not this. Doctors get to recommend treatment, not enforce it. Unless you are willing to let a doctor take you're kids away from you because he doesn't like the way your handling their medical care, I wouldn't go down that road.

[portisizzle]

A doctor can recommend treatment. I understand that. I also understand why free agency is important in our society. But the woman wakes up, has a heartbeat. But she can not communicate. I am not an expert on her medical condition. But our country does not allow euthanasia(sp) Why is this not considered euthanasia? Sounds like for 15 years this issue WAS considered euthanasia. The length of time here is very telling as to what is happening.

If it has been 15 years, what is another 15 weeks to properly sort this out??

[chomerics]

Originally posted by portisizzle

What is the doctor's call?

ALL of the REAL doctors have called it PVS, the only ones who have not are psudo doctors at best.

Take Hammesfahr for example, one of the "doctors" who was called on. You know, the "doctor" who was supposedly "nominated" for a nobile prize, yet the nominated term is to be used very loosely here. In fact, he was "nominated" by a US Congressman, who has absolutely no authority to nominate people for the prize.

http://nobelprize.org/medicine/nomination/nominators.html

And to furthermore add credence this guy is a fraud.

First, the two doctors who said she is not in a PVS state were "doctors" appointed by the parents. One of the "doctors", the one I mentioned previously, has also been backslapped by the Florida Board Of Medicine and restricted to only practicing medicine while under the supervision of another accredited doctor.

You see, this "Noble Prize" nominee, who was nominated by Rep. Bilirikis (R-Fla.), has been ripping off stroke patients for a while. He has been caught red handed bilking people by promoting his false theories which harm patients instead of help them.

Read the case file here. . .

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/FinalOrders/03-17-03/DOH-03-0182.pdf

And to further add insult to injury, a US congressman can not nominate somebody for a Noble Prize, yet I bet Representitive Bilirikis knew this when he wrote this letter.

http://www.hnionline.com/nobel_prize_nomination.htm

But then again, who could expect a US congressman to know the rules of who can submit an entry for a Noble Prize.

Man, what a bunch of crap, pulling the "doctors" out of the woodwork now huh.

:puke:

[Henry]

Portis, because in 15 weeks if the powers that be decide in favor of the husband, this will happen all over again. Unless, of course, you mean "what is another 15 weeks to properly overrule the husband?" It HAS been sorted out. More than it should have been.

We can get into a he said/he said with doctors about her condition, but as whatever evidence presented was not strong enough to compell any one of the numerous courts overseeing this case to at any time to deem this euthanasia, I'm inclined to think that it isn't at this point.

[Larry]

Just some possible info, here, 'Nut,

I've heared references on several sources as to the sworn statements of, I believe, three nurses saying things similar to the part you've highlighted.

OTOH, I also have heard the statements that aparantly, none of the court hearings found the statements credible.

Aparantly one of the nurses who swore she heard Michael make a comment like that, is contradicted by another nurse who was also present at the time.

And, as the previous statement by the Ad Lightem had said, Michael was, for the first several years of his wife's treatment, very demanding about getting care for his wife. (The Guardian pointed out that he was rather shocked, for example, that in 15 years Terri has never had a bedsore).

Aparantly, at least one of the Nursing Veterans for Truth (I just invented that term. Clever, huh?) was fired from this facility, because Michael felt he wasn't taking care of his wife enough.

(I don't know if the nurse you're quoting is the one that I've heard that about.)

[chomerics]

Originally posted by SkinsNut73

Yes, Michael himself is such a trustworthy character...isn't he :doh:

9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused

on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?,"

"Has she died yet?" and "When is that ***** gonna die?" These

statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would

make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was

talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I

recall him making include "Can't anything be done to accelerate her

death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would

be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be

given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure

the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word

for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the

end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be

contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that

said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael

immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they

should know about their daughter.

http://www.bluestarbase.org/stanley031805.htm

Skinsnut, all of the judges and medical professionals have seen her testimony, and it is, well how to put this lightly. . .

:bsflag:

The judge called her testimony incredible, as if it was not at all possible and a complete lie. You've seen the videos, do you honestly think ONLY when this woman was in the room, Terri could sit up and say Mommy and Please help???

Come on now.

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by Henry

Skinsnut, if that affidavit was strong enough evidence to overrule the husband's custodial rights, they would have been overruled by now. What's your explaination as to why he still retains them? You know something two dozen judges don't?

Henry,

Admittedly, I am a "newbie" to this case if I can use that term. Yes, I have been aware of it for the last 12-15 years. But I never really took the time to dive into the details until recently (and I'm still digging). But my understanding is the 20+ judges who have ruled on the case HAVE NOT reviewed the evidence over again. They are "simply" ruling that the first judge to rule on the case was correct. There is nothing to overturn is more the ruling.

Look...I'm the last person who would want the government involved in someone's personal affairs. So from that standpoint I understand the court's decision(s). And this has become a political mess. I'm trying to remove myself from these aspects.

What I see is a human being who is being starved to death in my opinion. And it's killing me Henry. I know I'm thinking with more emotion than I should...but this just really saddens me. Unfortunately, while thinking about this case, I put myself in her parents shoes and wondered what if that were one of my daughters? When I think of her husband I see a man who has carried on affairs, has fathered children...and allegedly the first time he ever mentioned Terry's wishes to not be put on nay life supprt was 7 years after the fact. Quite honestly, I think of him as a scumbag (and that's unfair because I don't know him personally).

But he has apparently moved on with his life...why doesn't he give up guardianship? What is in it for him? Can't he leave her care to her parents? And how does "word of mouth" become gospel - her wishes were not in a living will, so we just accept that dear hubbie heard her say this?

I was reading stories (on MSNBC) of people who wrote in about their experiences with "pulling the plug". Thank God I've never had to make that decision...but it made me wonder if I would selfishly allow myself to keep my child alive for my "pleasure"? So in some sense I'm coming to believe the parents should let go...but starving someone just seems so wrong (and I know some doctors are saying she doesn't feel anything...but I just don't buy it).

I don't know why/what got me so emotionally wrapped up in this story? Usually I'm a cold, callous person;)...but God it just hurts to think of this whole issue.

(Too much emotion...think I'm going to go visit the Daily Babe Thread to get my mind off of it

:cool: )

[portisizzle]

Nut,

you summed up my opinion to a T. This is why I don't understand why we can't wait and make sense of this issue. I think what is happening is wrong. I could understand if she was in a coma. Frankly I could more understand if she was terminally ill and was in great pain.

What I do not understand is why a husband who wants to rid himself of this problems will not take into consideration the parents. If the guy wants to rid himself of the woman, fine. Pass the responsibility to the parents. Then he can go have his life back. It is not like this woman does not have anyone that care about her.

Now, she has a whole country caring about her. That should be enough to stop this madness right now.

The husband is wrong.

[chomerics]

Nut,

You do know that she is not suffering don't you? She is most definately on morphine and other drugs so she feels nothing.

Let me ask you this as well, people have feeding tubes removed hundreds of times daily, what makes this case so special?

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by chomerics

Nut,

You do know that she is not suffering don't you? She is most definately on morphine and other drugs so she feels nothing.

Let me ask you this as well, people have feeding tubes removed hundreds of times daily, what makes this case so special?

Where'd you get the 100's of times a day? The doctor in the article said its not documented?

[chomerics]

Originally posted by portisizzle

What I do not understand is why a husband who wants to rid himself of this problems will not take into consideration the parents. If the guy wants to rid himself of the woman, fine. Pass the responsibility to the parents. Then he can go have his life back. It is not like this woman does not have anyone that care about her.

You just don't get it Portis, he is doing this because he LOVES her!!! yes, he does.

What if, god forbid, it was your wife and she said to you that she never wanted to live life like this. You loveher with all her might, and you fight for seven years to help her back, but she shows absolutely nothing. You finally come to the conclusion that there is nothing she will ever be able to do, just lie there with no communication ability.

Do you then carry out her wishes?

Personally, I would hope to god my wife loved me even half as much as he loves her. The easy thing is to walk away, the hard thing is to fight for her wishes, how do you not see this???

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by chomerics

You just don't get it Portis, he is doing this because he LOVES her!!! yes, he does.

What if, god forbid, it was your wife and she said to you that she never wanted to live life like this. You loveher with all her might, and you fight for seven years to help her back, but she shows absolutely nothing. You finally come to the conclusion that there is nothing she will ever be able to do, just lie there with no communication ability.

Do you then carry out her wishes?

Personally, I would hope to god my wife loved me even half as much as he loves her. The easy thing is to walk away, the hard thing is to fight for her wishes, how do you not see this???

I'd see it a lot easier if he didn't have an affair with another woman within those first 7 years. Honestly I would.

[SkinsNut73]

Originally posted by chomerics

Nut,

You do know that she is not suffering don't you? She is most definately on morphine and other drugs so she feels nothing.

Let me ask you this as well, people have feeding tubes removed hundreds of times daily, what makes this case so special?

I know that morphine is taking away any pain, yes. But morphine is not going to kill her. She will begin to dehydrate (if she has not already), her eyes will grow "sunken", and one by one her major organs will begin to shut down. Kind of reminds me of my dog I had for 13 years...couple of years ago his organs started to shut down...brought him in, held him in my arms as the vet put him to sleep. Did it suck? Hell yes. But it was over in 2 minutes. What we're doing to this woman is barbaric in my opinion.

What makes this so special? (I don't believe we do it hundreds of times daily...not even close...but I think I know what you are getting at)...ask the media why they cover this and not "hundreds of others". For me...it might sound corny...but I made her "my daughter"...even though she's older than me...and it just hurts. Can't explain it any better than that...can't even type it without starting to well up with tears.