OT : White House remarks doesnt jibe with me

[Terry]

fansince62,

Thanks for the response.

But I have no idea what you are talking about, especially in that first paragraph. I think you are saying that there are no easy answers, and I agree.

I am not among those that believe that Bush had enough info to be able to aniticpate the events of 9/11. There was no comunal mindset that could accept that such a tragedy could occur, and any warnings that something might happen were lost in the standard political, economic, and security cost/benefit equations that would have prevailed in the climate prior to that event.

HOWEVER, when BUsh is sainted and Clinton pilloried, I have to respoind, and rtemind people that:

the CIA chief DID feel that something big was about to happen, yet his warnings were not heeded.

The administration DID threaten to veto an increase in counter terrorism funds 7 days prior to 9/11.

Since 9/11, there is still little communications between the FBI and CIA on counter-terrorism efforts.

Clinton DID order the capture or assassination of Bin Laden in 1998.

Clinton wasn't the devil incarnate, Bush isn't a saint. So there's no need to dredge up the old carricatures, and ignore the impule to divide ourselves into simple, highly politically carricatured political camps - spineless liberals, fascist conservatives, left wing kooks, right wing nuts - and just put country unity first.

[Mad Mike]

Terry

I guess you are a die hard Clinton supporter huh? Oh well, at least you are a Skins fan:D

I realised I missed a point you made..

" And nobody has said anything about Rumsfeld threating an administration veto last September 9th, of a congressional bill that would earmark $600M for counter-terrorism funds."

Please provide a link to this story, I've been searching and I did not find it.

I did find this interview with Rumsfeld on 9/9/2001 however.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2001/t09132001_t909wolf.html

To qoute Rumsfeld: "We spend a $11 billion trying to deal with terrorism and force protection."

[Terry]

Sure Mike,

this is the quote:

As late as Sept. 9, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld threatened a presidential veto when the Senate proposed to divert $600 million to counterterrorism from ballistic missile defense.

From this article.

As for being a Clinton supporter, no. But I prefer fairness and accuracy rather than demonizing and blind worship just because somebody's label is either different from or matches your own.

[The Evil Genius]

Oh God - Terry MUST be die hard Clinton supporter because he said Clinton wasnt the devil incarnate and Bush wasn't/isn't a Saint :doh:

Gawd Terry - you evil evil man. You liberal. You Clinton supporter you.

The funny thing is, is that the parties have switched sides now that the Presidency has changed hands.

The Republicans cry foul when Dubya is pillored. Except, they were the party of the smear campaign for 8 years.

The Dems cried foul for 8 years when the Republicans were smearing Clinton. Now, they use the smear tactic themselves.

Ah, politics, its great to be an American no?

[Mad Mike]

tommy-the-greek

1) all future efforts should be bi partizan - agreed. This is us vs them.

2) the fact that Arab hatred for the US is an issue that goes back to the creation of Israel - agreed

Now we diverge.

A long standing hatred of the US by arabs is NOT a concrete threat that can be acted upon. The mounting attacks during the Clinton administration were.

The rest of your post about occupying Saudi Arabia is simply absurd. Too stupid to be worth a lenthy reply.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the emotion that drives you. I have simply evolved past the point of animal, knee jerk reactions.

[Mad Mike]

Terry

Besides the fact that throwing money at a thing does not guarentee results (somthing we skins fans should know by now:doh: ). I think this quote from the story is far more important.

" In the 10 weeks before Sept. 11, most of the thousands of intelligence leads pointed to an attack on Americans or their properties overseas.

"Most of the al Qaeda network is anticipating an attack," said a highly classified analysis at the end of June. "Al Qaeda's overt publicity has also raised expectations among its rank and file, and its donors. We have increased security at U.S. facilities, warned Americans, threatened the Taliban, stretched intelligence collection efforts, caused the arrest of some of those al Qaeda members we have located, and placed consequence management teams on alert."

or this one...

"I'm fit to be tied," said one top official from another agency. "People are saying we didn't connect the dots. It's awfully hard to connect the dots if people don't give you the dots."

Hardly sounds to me like nothing was beeing done.

Just so you know. I am not a "Bush supporter" or a republican or democrat. I make up my own mind on each issue and speak or vote according to the best objective opinion I can form given the information available.

Funny thing, I chose NOT to vote in the last presidential election as a personal protest because I disliked both candidates. I also live in FL. :shootinth

[Mad Mike]

Cskin

- Bush's brother Jeb signed what amounted to a martial law declaration in FL. the day before the attack.

Huh? I live in FL and that is absolute BULL.

Me thinks you need to lay off the consperecy theorys.

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by The Evil Genius

I dont know whats funnier here...the fact that you guys are blaming the Executive office for lack of action, whoever the party affiliation..or the fact that you actually believe that the Executive Branch has any power in our current form of government.

True power lies in the administrative state - it has for 30 years or so.

And it will continue to be there due to the lack of time that "elected" officials have to deal with the issues confronting them.

Really? That's funny considering there is NO administrative branch of government:thumbsup:

[The Evil Genius]

Reread what I said - you even quoted it.

I said the Administrative State. Not the administrative branch.

If you think that your elected officials have the time to make every decision that is important...then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

[88Comrade2000]

If Bush knew concrete things, he would've done something to prevent it. Any president, even Mr. Clinton would've done something. This is just like people saying FDR knew the Japanese were bombing Pearl Harbor.

What is being revealed is the fact we have an intelligence failure. The FBI,CIA,INS, etc... aren't cooridinated with each other. They each have their own turfs and don't want to share info. That's what should be investigated. How these various agencies had bits and pieces but noone put thing together.

The briefings were more general. Hell even the highjackers didn't know that they were on suicide missions until they were on the plan.

[mardi gras skin]

What is being revealed is the fact we have an intelligence failure. The FBI,CIA,INS, etc... aren't cooridinated with each other.

What is being revealed is that if you have enought money and hate your own life enough, no one can stop you. They tried to blow up the WTC with a truck bomb and failed. They tried it with planes and succeeded. If they had failed they would have tried a dirty bomb. Or chemical or biologial something or other. Or Pea shooters if they thought it might work, but they were not going to stop until they made their statement.

We will never be able to create a level of intellegence that will stop the cell group model of suicide terrorism.

[Skins57]

I agree with everyone who said Bush was at fault, I agree that Clinton was at fault, Americans as a whole were at fault. One year ago did anyone think this would have happened? I doubt it. I am sure there is some people who would say I knew it but I doubt that. We as a country had never thought this could happen. We should not be surprised, this crap happens all the time all over the world, just not at this level of destruction.We all suffered though this as Americans, We all will get though this as Americans, We will fight these ba$tards as Americans and we will beat these ba$tards as Americans. I get so sick of this Rep/Dem fight. This cowardly act has happened and there is nothing we can do about it, the people are dead the Towers are down, the Pentagon was damaged. American blood was spilled.

Now we need to act as a country of Americans and try to prevent this from happening again, and removing these a$$holes from the earth.

One thing that has bothered me is this. We have pretty much made it known that Iraq is likely to be next but we have said that months ago and to me we are giving this jerk Saddam way to much time to get his terror weapons ready for the fight. I believe we need to quit stalling and go after him now.

My main goal in this post was to say we need to quit trying toblame everyone and join togehter to prevent this from ever happening again

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Mad mike, It is much more then emotion that drives me. Look at the equation this way. We are screwed if we do nothing. We are screwed if we use limited force ie: what we are doing now. And we will be screwed if we act with overwhelming force, what I suggest. So what is the difference between all 3 options?

My suggestion will put them on the defensive. It is much harder to plan and carry out and attack on us when they are hiding in caves and under rocks. We must round them up in every country they seek refuge. This also sends a strong message in the language they speak well. They are savage animals, the ONLY way to defeat a savage is to become one.

And why not pump the oil out while we are there? We could create a national reserve in the Arizona or New Mexico desert which would secure our way of life for the next 100 years. The natural resources of this planet are dwindling and it is time for us to act. We must secure these resources or perish. And if we take out some of the enemies to our way of life along the way all the better.

[Cskin]

Atlanta Skin Fan & Mad Mike,

Below is just one of the links I found about our discussion:

http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/apocalypse/26_reasons.html

Included:

"2) On Friday, September 7, Florida Governor, Jeb Bush, brother to the President, issued an Executive Order in which members of the Florida National Guard were activated, "for the purpose of training to support law-enforcement personnel and emergency-management personnel in the event of civil disturbances or natural disaster." Perhaps the president and his brother received Dr. Nicolson's warnings or were the source of the warnings?"

"3) Numerous reports have surfaced alleging that Bush administration, military, and intelligence officials’ close associates had suddenly, and inexplicably, sold all their airline stock just days before the terrorist attacks. The F.B.I. is reportedly investigating these reports and such “inside traders.” "

"4) FEMA sent the Urban Search and Rescue Team to New York City THE NIGHT BEFORE the attacks occurred! One FEMA official, Mr. Tom Kennedy told Dan Rather on Sept 11, "We're currently one of the first teams that was deployed to support the City of New York in this disaster. We arrived on late Monday night [that is, on September 10, the NIGHT BEFORE] and went right into action on Tuesday morning." "

Hey, all this is just food for thought. I think all of us agree, it's best to seek all the information available and then form our own opinions, instead of blindly believing everything we hear spouted on national news channels.

[redman]

tetrahedron.org's Mission Statement:

Our Mission

Tetrahedron's Mission is "to provide people with opportunities to enhance their own abilities to experience health in body, mind, emotions, and spirit. To aid and help people educate others to create harmonious social relationships within safe and supportive environments and thereby help develop a world that functions more for the benefit of all humanity."

Incorporated initially in the State of Massachusetts, U.S.A., in 1978 as a nonprofit 501©(4) social welfare agency, the company has evolved into one of the premier educational publishers of "health science and government cover-up" literature. Throughout our history, we have alone, or in cooperation with other persons and organizations, sponsored educational programs for people of all ages and backgrounds. Initially we focused special attention in the areas of continuing health professional and employee education. But as our work became more politically sensitive and "incorrect" we were invited to transition to public health education programs supported by grassroots organizations. In 1998, our company moved to the Idaho panhandle from Boston and relinquished our 501©(4) status in protest to regulatory agencies.

Our work, and long list of highly acclaimed publications available through our ever growing catalog, speaks volumes about our integrity, spiritual orientation, and history-making contributions to world health and public safety.

We are proud of having made a significant difference to health science, consumer awareness, and patient care in the twentieth century, and we look forward to a most exciting and challenging new millennium.

What's funny is that they fail to mention that one of their avowed missions is to also expose "government cover-up's. Sounds a lot like this is run by a bunch of leftist do-gooder geeks who've watched (and taken seriously) far too many X-files episodes. They obviously relish being contrarian outsiders. Check out their site and you tell me.

[All In]

It's funny how there is such separtism (is that a word?) between Left wing and right wing. It's like the Cowboys and Redskins :laugh:

I never understood choosing sides in politics. How could you believe fully in one side and not the other? I'm probably just un-informed.

Well please continue posting, I've read this far I might as well enjoy the ride, and become a little more edumacated.

[Mad Mike]

Cskin

If you believe half of the crap in that "article" I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet?

As one example of the distortion of truth passed off as support for the wild, morronic theorys found there...

"4) FEMA sent the Urban Search and Rescue Team to New York City THE NIGHT BEFORE the attacks occurred! One FEMA official, Mr. Tom Kennedy told Dan Rather on Sept 11, "We're currently one of the first teams that was deployed to support the City of New York in this disaster. We arrived on late Monday night [that is, on September 10, the NIGHT BEFORE] and went right into action on Tuesday morning." "

DUH.... THEY WERE THERE FOR A TRAINING CONFERENCE.

Or how about PURE LIES.

"6) On October 31, 2001, the French daily Le Figaro reported that Osama bin Laden had met with a high-level CIA official in July 2000. At that time, bin Laden was already being sought for trial for his involvement in two U.S. embassy bombings and the U.S.S. Cole attack. The meeting was held in bin Laden's private suite in a Dubai hospital. Though he was eligible for extermination, according to President Bill Clinton's intelligence findings, on July 14th he was let go and left Dubai on his private jet"

The French daily Le Figaro? That is a trustworthy source? Probably writen by the same french guy who wrote the book claiming that no plane hit the Pentagon.

STUPID HARMFUL LIES.

Sorry, I'm not out to make enemys here but if you take pure bull**** like this as gospel, you are a fool.:dunce: :hammer:

[redman]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

2) the fact that Arab hatred for the US is an issue that goes back to the creation of Israel - agreed

Not picking on you, MM - I've seen this in other posts - but this is misguided on a couple of different points. And the problem is that it confuses two separate issues.

First, our dispute in the War on Terrorism is not with Arabs, although they are of course somewhat tied to the issue. Our dispute is with Muslims, many of whom are not Arabs (e.g. Persians, Afghans, Chechens, Paki's, Malaysians, Indonesians, Phillipinos, etc.) who have an Apocalyptic view of Islam. That is, they believe that their religious mandate is to impose Islam upon the world in the name of purifying the world and creating a better place. Because it's in the name of religion, it gives them the right to use, quite literally, any means necessary. They are absolutely fanatic, and ethnic/racial lines mean nothing to them. The only laws they want to prevail are those based upon (supposedly) the laws of Islam, and the consideration for the borders of their nation are those relating to believers and unbelievers. Frankly, pan-Arab nationalism like we saw 40 years ago with Nasser in Egypt is outdated, and works against these people. They'd rather ignore political boundaries and simply spread their religion and their way of life everywhere. This radical and militant form of Islam came about in the 1950's and 1960's, notably with the writings of Sayyid Gutb, who is the father of militant Islam.

Secondly, the U.S. has not been hated in the Middle East since the 1940's because of Israel. Rather, that has come about since the 1960's and 1970's, when we began to back Israel seemingly unconditionally, and often have been quite alone in doing it. Notably, at the same time, the Israeli's have occupied and settled (since around 1979) the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, which hasn't encouraged the Arabs to like anyone supporting the Israeli's. We've sold during and since that time the best military equipment to Israel, and have ensured by doing so that they would be militarily superior. We've made them the most-subsidized nation in the world by U.S. coffers, and they've had the most prosperous economy in the region during that time. And the strength of the Jewish lobby in Washington during that time has ensured that the Israeli's have been first in line for our ear on Middle East foreign policy issues, something that the Arab nations have been slow to counter with a lobby of their own.

Never forget that there are nations out there who are more frightened than we are of Muslim radicalism, and they are the moderate Arab (and other) nations where those movements fester. Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan are examples of those nations. Heck, do you really think that even Saddam Hussein would be welcoming to the kind of revolution that the Shah of Iran faced 20 years ago? Those countries and their leaders are sitting on the powder keg of Muslim radicalism and terrorism.

Anyway, you have to realize that confusion of these two issues works to the advantage of our enemies, as it will continue to conceal their true motives: domination of the world by Islam, not by Arab nationalism.

[Cskin]

Well,

I thought that would get you riled up. Due in large part to the fact that the article has no formal documentation, including the actual executive order signed by Jeb Bush, is an indication of sheer speculation and moronic 1+1 must equal two reasoning.

What I was trying to articulate is that it could very well be possible that the administation was aware of "some attack" being imminent to United States interests either at home or abroad. I contend that it was our arrogance, that being that our intelligence agencies and national security agency would be able to sniff out an attack and prevent it, is what utltimately allowed the attack to be successful. We simply thought it was impossible for Al-Queda to actually accomplish such an attack, and hence we were caught with our pants down.

Finally, I'm not going to dismiss the fact that there were others sources which warned us of the attack beforehand. This includes heads of state and allied intelligence agencies. We simply did not believe them, or took their warning with a grain of salt and proceeded blindly. We relied to heavily on our own intelligence agencies, albeit weakened by a previous administation and devoid of very helpful human intelligence, to determine that such an attack was impossible or better yet undetectable.

[Mad Mike]

tommy

Mad mike, It is much more then emotion that drives me. Look at the equation this way. We are screwed if we do nothing. We are screwed if we use limited force ie: what we are doing now. And we will be screwed if we act with overwhelming force, what I suggest. So what is the difference between all 3 options?

Doing nothing is clearly not a viable option, I'll give you that one. But what you fail to grasp is that using overwhelming force on the entire Arab world would be worse. What would you do? Kill every Arab and Muslem in the world? Because you would have to. BTW there is a word for that, its called Genocide, and it would make us worse than them and make us no better than the Nazis.

That leaves limited force, yet this is not quite a truthfull representation of the option. We can use overwhelming force in specific, well thought out circumstances. We can work to change the mindset of the arab world in both overt and covert ways. Granted, this takes time but it beats world war III.

In short, there are far more than 3 choices.

My suggestion will put them on the defensive. It is much harder to plan and carry out and attack on us when they are hiding in caves and under rocks. We must round them up in every country they seek refuge. This also sends a strong message in the language they speak well. They are savage animals, the ONLY way to defeat a savage is to become one.

We ARE putting them on the defensive! Sorry it is not working fast enough for those of you used to seing problems solved in one hour TV shows but this is reality. And just who are you calling animals? All Arabs? All Muslims? I suggest you read about this man...

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9496

And why not pump the oil out while we are there? We could create a national reserve in the Arizona or New Mexico desert which would secure our way of life for the next 100 years. The natural resources of this planet are dwindling and it is time for us to act. We must secure these resources or perish. And if we take out some of the enemies to our way of life along the way all the better.

Why? Are we now a nation of theives? Should we as a nation abandon our morals?

I say it again. Yours is a knee jerk reaction devoid of thought.

For further reading I strongly suggest you read the Dune series, especially the last book. Yes it is science fiction, but it contains a great deal of wisdom and the Fremen of Dune were modeled after Arab and Muslim culture. The prevailing theme is that of the Jihad as a force that must be tempered from within.

[Mad Mike]

redman

Very good post. I did not mean to discount the radicals who want an Islamic world order. My point is that the creation of Israel gave them more credibility, stirred the flames, and drove more followers into there arms.

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Who said all arabs or muslims. I am referring to the terrorist groups that are in atleast 12 different middle eastern and North african countries. These countries have harboured terrorist groups for decades. They cannot clean up the mess, we must.

Who should pay for this? My tax dollars? Hell no. Make them pay with oil.

[DIESEL TROLL]

KUDOS to Fansince62!!! The desperation is very apparent on behalf of the leftists.

I will say that I like Bush better as a conservative leader , rather than a conservative politician , as evidenced by his views on immigration, culture, and border control. I think he panders way too much to the leftwing media.

It absolutely drives me nuts to see him do this when he has such high approval ratings. To me, he is blowing the opportunity of a lifetime to drive the political "stake" into the heart of the leftists once and for all.......:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

[Art]

This thread is nice and hot and I'm moving it to the Tailgate to give Park City something to talk about in next month's Extreme Monthly

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

tommy

We ARE putting them on the defensive! Sorry it is not working fast enough for those of you used to seing problems solved in one hour TV shows but this is reality. And just who are you calling animals? All Arabs? All Muslims? I suggest you read about this man...

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9496

Why? Are we now a nation of theives? Should we as a nation abandon our morals?

I say it again. Yours is a knee jerk reaction devoid of thought.

For further reading I strongly suggest you read the Dune series, especially the last book. Yes it is science fiction, but it contains a great deal of wisdom and the Fremen of Dune were modeled after Arab and Muslim culture. The prevailing theme is that of the Jihad as a force that must be tempered from within.

You are a fool. We attack in afghanastan and the terrorists slip thru our fingers into pakistan into iran and thru the waterways of the arabian sea. We do not have enough forces in theater to wipe out the terrorists. We have to go there with massive force. And in case you havent realized the obvious War is morally bankrupt. There can be no morality in war if you plan on winning. It is quite simply us vs. them. You keep reading your sci-fi books and keep your head in the sand while some terrorist butt Slams your back side. This is reality in the post 9/11 world.

We must achieve victory for our childrens sake. It is our duty to assure the roots of democracy are healthy and viable in the world garden. The only way to assure this is to pull and kill all the weeds. What you suggest only kills at the surface giving you an aesthetically clean garden but it leaves the roots to grow right back. I want to pull the roots out and kill the infestation. The only way this happens is if we put aside our petty political loyalties to party. And unite as Americans to vanquish all forms of terrorists who endeavor harm against us.