Second thoughts on Terri Schiavo

[Kilmer17]

Or me.

wait a minute.........

[jbooma]

Any parent willing to let their children suffer like that needs help. Would anyone on this tread want to hooked up to a machine like that to live, even though you have no clue what is going on.

Parents need to realize, we are not talking about little kids anymore, these are grownups, let them make the decisions. Don't let a feud with the husband keep you from doing what is right, and that is letting go.

You can't compare someone in a coma to this, we are talking about brain damage here.

[jenmdixon]

Seeing this story online brought this old thread to mind...

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=584124&page=1

Transcript: Michael Schiavo on 'Nightline'

Husband at the Heart of the 'Right to Die' Case Speaks to Chris Bury

Mar. 16, 2005 - Michael Schiavo won a series of lengthy court battles for the right to take his severely disabled wife, Terri, off life support, but now faces a new challenge from Florida lawmakers who are seeking to pass a bill that would stop him from doing so.

Terri Schiavo collapsed in 1990 and suffered severe brain damage. She has been kept alive by a feeding tube ever since and has been unable to speak or care for herself. Her parents have insisted she is not in a persistent vegetative state, as doctors appointed by the court have concluded. They also believe she would not have wanted to be allowed to die.

While Michael Schiavo has only rarely spoken to the press, he gave an interview to ABC News' Chris Bury as the bill moves through the state legislature and the day for removing his wife's feeding tube approaches.

The following is a transcript of their conversation.

-------------------------------------------------------

BURY: Joining us now from Dunedin, Fla., Michael Schiavo and his lawyer George Felos.

Michael, you've had very little to say outside of what's been filed in the legal briefs over the last year or so. Why have you decided to come out tonight and have something to say?

SCHIAVO: The reason why I've been keeping private for the longest time ever here, I've always wanted to protect my wife's privacy. I don't like -- I didn't want to put her picture all over the news. I just wanted to keep her private.

And today, and what's going on in the legislation, is really the reason why I'm starting to speak out, because it's outrageous.

BURY: When you say the legislation, I assume what you're talking about is the bill back now in the Florida legislature, which actually passed a committee in the legislature today and could be on Governor Bush's desk by Friday, which is the same day that Terri's feeding tubes are to be removed. Is that right?

SCHIAVO: That's correct.

You know, it's really uncomprehensible to think that a private family matter that has gone through the judiciary system for the past seven years -- I mean, we're talking all the way up to the United States Supreme Court -- and for a governor to come into this without any education on the subject and push his personal views into this and have his Republican legislation pass laws so that this doesn't happen.

He's basically jumping right over the state court's decision. We might as well not have any state courts.

BURY: Just, Michael, so we can all understand the legislation -- as I understand it, this would require that before the feeding tubes could be removed from someone in a vegetative state, they would have had to have left written instructions to the effect that that was OK with that. Is that correct?

SCHIAVO: That's what they're trying to pass now, yes.

BURY: And let me ask your lawyer, George Felos: How problematic is this legislation for you?

FELOS: Chris, this is the second time this has happened.

As everyone knows, in October 2003 the governor sent armed men to Terri's death bed, took her to a hospital and had surgery performed on her against her will.

The Florida Supreme Court said that was unconstitutional, and it also said there is absolutely nothing the Florida legislature can pass that can undo the result in Terri Schiavo's case. Yet, in response to political pressure, the legislature is poised to pass another unconstitutional bill.

And not only that, it's not just Floridians' rights that are at stake, but everyone in the country. There is a bill in the United States Congress, and this bill in the United States Congress would virtually let any family member bring a federal court habeas corpus proceeding, which would tie up a case like that for years in federal court, which would make it virtually impossible for anyone to remove artificial life support.

And I want to mention, too, for everyone listening out there, this bill, filed in federal court, does not pertain just to vegetative patients. It doesn't pertain just to removal of feeding tubes. It pertains to removal or refusal of any type of medical treatment.

BURY: Just for the sake of argument, if this Florida bill moves through the legislature and Governor Bush signs it as early as Friday, does that move the whole thing back into the courts?

SCHIAVO: Well, we'll have to see what, in fact, passes on Friday.

It may very well delay implementation of Terri's rights. We certainly hope that it will not. But it is beyond any doubt that the Florida Supreme Court will once again declare such a law unconstitutional.

BURY: Michael, did Terri, your wife, leave any kind of written instructions about her wishes?

SCHIAVO: She didn't leave any written instructions. She has verbally expressed her wishes to me and other people.

BURY: She had verbally expressed them in what context exactly?

SCHIAVO: Through watching some TV program, a conversation that happened regarding her uncle that was very ill.

BURY: And how long ago was that?

SCHIAVO: Oh, we're talking -- it's now been 15 years. We're talking a couple of year, three years before this happened to Terri.

BURY: So there's no kind of written record at all. It's basically your recollection and those of other family members.

SCHIAVO: Yes, it is.

FELOS: But, Chris …

BURY: Go ahead, George.

FELOS: You have to remember that statistics show that something around 20 [percent] to 30 percent of adult Americans have written living wills. And if you're going to try to restrict families and patients from making decisions to stop artificial life support because patient declarations were oral, then the vast majority of Americans are going to be prevented from making these types of decisions.

SCHIAVO: People make these comments all the time. They talk about this with their loved ones every day. People's feedings -- tube feedings -- are stopped across this country every day.

If my wife wasn't the celeb, as everybody is calling her now, there would be no discussion in the legislation right now.

My other -- are they going to start pushing legislation for removing ventilators? Are they going to start forcing people to take chemo against their wishes?

What they're doing is, they're making the decisions for us. That's what this country is coming down to. They're going to make the decisions for us.

BURY: In this …

SCHIAVO: Big Brother is going to do that.

BURY: Michael, in the heated rhetoric that's swirling around this case and has been for a number of years now -- all kinds of charges have been flying back and forth.

First of all, do you stand to benefit financially in any way from your wife's death?

SCHIAVO: There is no money. I will receive not a penny.

BURY: You did receive something of a malpractice settlement north of $1 million at one point, is that correct?

SCHIAVO: Yes.

FELOS: Well, no.

BURY: And what happened to that?

FELOS: Michael didn't receive those funds. Those were received in Terri's guardianship and it was a bank who was her guardian of the property that administered those funds.

BURY: But the question remains: What happened to those funds?

FELOS: Well, those funds have been used for Terri's medical care and guardianship expenses and costs and fees over many, many years.

Those funds are virtually gone, and Mr. Schiavo is not going to inherit or gain one penny by the result of Terri's death.

BURY: And so, Michael, who is now -- and let's get the camera over to Michael if we can -- Michael, who is now paying for Terri's case?

SCHIAVO: Actually, right now, she's listed on the indigent list for hospice. They were taking care of her. They take very good care of her.

BURY: It's got to be very expensive.

SCHIAVO: She had -- I haven't received any bills from it, so I couldn't tell you how much it would cost.

BURY: Your wife's family and their supporters have been arguing in the most graphic terms that what you are going to allow happen on Friday, in their words, is in effect condemning your wife to a cruel death by starvation.

I'd like you to address that charge from them.

SCHIAVO: That's one of their soapboxes they've been on for a long time.

Terry will not be starved to death. Her nutrition and hydration will be taken away. This happens across this country every day.

Death through removing somebody's nutrition is very painless. That has been brought to the courts many of times. Doctors have come in and testified. It is a very painless procedure.

Terry can't -- she has no cortex left. She doesn't feel pain. She doesn't feel hunger.

So what's going to happen is slowly -- her potassium and her electrolytes will slowly diminish and she will drift off to a nice little sleep and eventually pass on to be with God.

BURY: Michael, as you know, her parents have said they are willing to take on the burden of caring for her. And we want to tackle that question when we come back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BURY: Back now with Michael Schiavo with his lawyer, George Felos.

Michael, you're very well aware of Terri's parents' contention that, to some very limited degree, she is responsive and aware of her surroundings.

So now, I want to play, for just a second, what her father, Bob Schindler, said on this program to Ted Koppel in October of 2003.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHINDLER: We have yea votes that would outnumber the nay votes by at least three to one.

Essentially we have close to 15 doctors that are on record with the courts stating Terry is not in a consistent vegetative state.

So we're not just out there on a lark.

We have bona fide information from a professional neurologist that Terry can recover.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURY: Michael, you heard from her father that they believe she can recover. We've also heard that she responds to her mother and responds to objects with her eyes.

What have you seen in the last 15 years?

SCHIAVO: Terry does not respond to anybody. She makes noises. She moans. She's been doing the same things for the past 15 years.

And they talk about their bona fide doctors. They have a list of doctors that signed affidavits from looking at a picture of Terry. That's where they get their information from, by looking at a picture.

And then they sign an affidavit swearing that she's not in a vegetative stage.

I'll tell you. That's a doctor you really want; they can look at a picture and make a diagnosis.

BURY: The parents also argue that you have moved on with your life, that you now have children that you're with, another woman, and that you could, essentially, divorce Terri and relinquish guardianship to them. Why don't you do that?

SCHIAVO: If I moved on with my life -- and I moved on with a portion of it -- but I still have a big commitment to Terri. I made her a promise.

And another reason why I won't give Terri back is that Mr. Schindler testified in court, at the 2000 trial, that he would -- to keep Terri alive he would cut her arms and legs off and put her on a ventilator just to keep her alive.

So why would I give her to a man that would do that to you?

BURY: As I understand it, some people have actually offered rewards. In fact, just in the last week or so, I read that someone was willing to pay you $1 million to give up your guardianship to the parents.

SCHIAVO: Yes, there was an offer. And there was an offer two weeks before that by an attorney in Boca Raton that offered me $10 million.

It's not about the money. This is about Terri. It's not about the Schindlers, it's not about the legislators, it's not about me, it's about what Terri Schiavo wanted.

BURY: I understand that that's your feeling about what your wife wanted, but knowing that you believe she is in a vegetative state and knowing that her mother and father have said they're willing to pick up the burden and carry on the cost, what is the harm to you if you agree to their wishes and relinquish guardianship to them?

SCHIAVO: Basically what I just said. Her father stated in court he would cut her arms and legs off. I'm not going to turn over Terri to a person that would do that to you.

FELOS: Chris, the fact is that Terri Schiavo is not a piece of property, not a suitcase that one person can give to another. She's an individual that has constitutional rights that have been adjudicated.

It's a constitutional right to say, "I don't want medical treatment" and the state can't force you to have it.

She may be in a vegetative state, but her dignity requires that we honor her rights and that's what this case is about now. Everyone's constitutional rights are at stake.

Jeb Bush in Florida is determined to become the George Wallace of his generation, standing on the courthouse steps saying, "We're not going to obey a court order that carries out a patient's constitutional rights."

And the thing is is that, if Mrs. Schiavo's rights are frustrated here, if the court order giving her the right to refuse medical treatment is frustrated and overturned by the governor or the legislature or the Congress, it could happen to you. It could happen in any case.

If any judicial decision is unpopular, it can be subject to being overturned by popular clamor. That's not what this country is about. That's not what individual liberty is about.

BURY: I understand fully the legal question here, Michael.

But let ask you in simply human terms. Can you understand the parents' contention, the bond that they have with their daughter, and their reluctance to let her go? Do you understand that?

SCHIAVO: You know, I have children and, you know, I couldn't even fathom what it would be like to lose a child. But you know, it's been 15 years.

They know the condition Terri is in. They were there in the beginning. They heard the doctors. They know that Terri's in a persistent vegetative state. They testified to that at the original trial.

Fifteen years -- you've got to come to grips with it sometime.

BURY: In that 15 years, what has been the most difficult aspect for you, personally?

SCHIAVO: In the 15 years? This happening to my wife.

Just because it's happened to Terri doesn't mean I don't still love her. She was a part of my life. She'll always be a part of my life.

And to sit here and be called a murderer and an adulterer by people that don't know me, and a governor stepping into my personal, private life, who doesn't know me either? And using his personal gain to win votes, just like the legislators are doing right now, pandering to the religious right, to the people up there, the anti-abortion people, standing outside of Tallahassee.

What kind of government is this? This is a human being. This is not right, and I'm telling everybody you better call your congressman, because they're going to run your life.

And I just want to say one more thing: Out of all these lawmakers, be it the Florida Senate, Florida House, the U.S. Congress, Governor Bush, President Bush -- I want to know who will come down and take Terri's place. Who wants to do that?

BURY: Michael, I can imagine many people watching this tonight and looking at you and struggling with your dilemma and wondering, if they were in a similar position, what they might do.

Based on your own experience over this past 15 years, what advice do you give to families who might have to cope with this situation one day?

SCHIAVO: Make a living will. Talk about it. Death is going to happen to everybody. Write it down.

Even if you write it on a piece of paper at home and have your family witness it, you need to write it down.

BURY: Michael Schiavo, George Felos, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

[NoCalMike]

Wow, thanks for posting that Jen.

[jenmdixon]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html

Last-ditch bid in right-to-die case

House committee to subpoena brain-damaged Florida woman

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Members of Congress on Friday stepped up their efforts to keep a severely brain-damaged Florida woman alive, as a deadline neared to have the woman's feeding tube removed.

Schiavo is scheduled to have her feeding tube removed at 1 p.m. ET today, under court order.

A House committee was planning to subpoena Terri Schiavo to appear before Congress next week, and Schiavo's family is "hopeful" the brain-damaged woman will make that appearance in Washington, an attorney for her parents said Friday.

Meanwhile, a Senate committee issued an invitation for Terri Schiavo and her husband to testify on Capitol Hill.

U.S. marshals are expected to serve the House Committee on Government Reform subpoenas on Woodside Hospice before noon Friday, attorney David Gibbs said. The subpoenas include doctors, hospital administrators and Schiavo, he said.

The congressional action is a last-ditch attempt to block the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube. The severely brain-damaged woman has been at the heart of a legal tug-of-war since 1998 when her husband, Michael, petitioned courts to remove her feeding tube.

Her feeding tube has been removed twice before, most recently in 2003. That year, Gov. Jeb Bush pushed a law through the Florida Legislature that authorized him to resume the woman's feedings six days after a court stopped them. The law was later ruled unconstitutional by the Florida Supreme Court.

Supreme Court appeal

The U.S. Supreme Court late Thursday rejected an emergency appeal by Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, to stop the tube's removal. Meanwhile, legislation that would keep her alive has appeared to stall in Florida's Legislature and in Congress.

A Senate committee has issued an invitation for Terri and Michael Schiavo to testify.

"What the U.S. Congress is saying is, 'We want to see Terri Schiavo,' " Gibbs said. "The family applauds these actions taken by Congress. We are very hopeful that indeed, Terri will get to make a trip to Washington, D.C."

Asked whether that would be feasible, he said, "Absolutely. She would need a wheelchair."

In addition, Gibbs said he filed a petition in federal court in the Middle District of Florida. The petition asks the court to review the state court process, he said.

"Terri is not terminal," he said. "If we feed Terri ... she will live another 30 to 40 years."

He described Schiavo as "responsive" although he acknowledged she functions at the level of a 6- to 11-month-old child. She recognizes her family, he said. "She teases. She plays. She smiles. She tries to talk." Schiavo also can breathe and swallow on her own, he said.

Asked why, if she can swallow, a feeding tube is necessary, Gibbs said he has inquired whether Schiavo could receive food by mouth, and "courts in Florida have said no. The order is to stop all food and water."

But the subpoena and the invitation from Congress, he said, "should serve as a significant deterrent to doing anything that would put Terri's life in jeopardy."

In 1990, when she was 26, Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home and suffered severe brain damage when oxygen to her brain was interrupted for five minutes. Lower courts have ruled that she is in a "persistent vegetative" state.

Congressional intervention

"Later this morning, we will issue a subpoena, which will require hospice administrators and attending physicians to preserve nutrition and hydration for Terri Schiavo to allow Congress to fully understand the procedures and practices that are currently keeping her alive," a statement from the House Republican leadership said.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Government Reform Committee Chairman Tom Davis released that statement.

"The Committee on Government Reform has initiated an inquiry into the long-term care of incapacitated adults, an issue of growing importance to the federal government and federal healthcare policy," the statement said.

"This inquiry should give hope to Terri, her parents and friends, and the millions of people throughout the world who are praying for her safety. This fight is not over."

Regarding the subpoena, Ron Bonjean, a spokesman for Hastert, said: "We're on very comfortable ground that we have a federal interest in long-term care."

Five years ago, the same House committee issued a subpoena for 6-year-old Elian Gonzalez with the goal of preventing federal immigration officials from returning the refugee to Cuba.

Rep. Dan Burton, R-Indiana, who was then chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, said the subpoena would "provide a measure of legal protection while the court is considering this case." While the tactic was never tested because court action delayed Elian's deportation for months, it remained a potential delaying device.

On another front, the Florida Supreme Court rejected a request for a stay by the state's Department of Children and Family Services, citing a lack of jurisdiction. The agency had argued that it needed time to investigate allegations of abuse by Schiavo's guardian, her husband Michael.

[NoCalMike]

Umm, why does Congress need to see Terry in court? WTF kind of charade is this becoming? Nice to see personal medical issues are now the business of the federal government. This is such garbage.

[NavyDave]

I was on a feeding tube last year when my heart stopped and it was touch n go.

Personally parents should have a say instead of a spouse I say that because you can always get a new spouse but never parents who are looking out for their daughter this guy who has moved on by bangin some other chick and having two kids shouldn't have any say unless you think he is still the loving husband.

What do you think will happen if she was to come out of her coma as the most recent lady who was in one for 20 years or the NC lady who was in a coma for 17 yrs.

The problem is what I call the convienice factor people on the so called right to die side look at fighting to keep people alive a burden.

Terri is on a feeding tube not life support so you wont be doing her a favor starving her to death for two weeks.

We are as a nation slowly but surely moving towards the Denmark Swedish form of Euthanasia but that will only help speed up turn over of America to minorites who are more often prolife, more religious and pro baby making and I'm doing my part

[NavyDave]

Actually congress is pulling a slick move because the Courts are to interpret law not write it which some people keep forgetting.

It is time for state legislatures to take back their law making power from these activist courts.

[NoCalMike]

Terry Schiavo is not in a "coma" though I thought. She is braindead, and is "alive" as she will ever get.

[gbear]

I guess one of the questions I have for those saying it's inhumane to starve her is has she shown any brain activity to any other stimulus? prick her, bend her, dont feed her for a day...any brain activity, any increase in heart rate or blood preasure? All of these normally accompany discomfort. As I understand it, she is brain dead, not in a coma. Without response to stimulus...what about her is an alive human?

I guess I have a problem saying something that can't be fealt could be painful or in any way inhumane.

edit. In reading the CNN article, it seems she does have some brain function. If this is true, it's a much harder question. I'd think this is an atypical euthanasia case where the husband may or may not be correct. If the family member quoted is correct and she has the brain function of a 10 month old, then she would recognize pain. If it were me, I would still want to die. However without the paperwork, I think my wife would be hard pressed.

To me there is a difference between severe retardation and brain dead. Which is she?

[NavyDave]

He loves his wife soooooooo much that he has two kids with another woman and is covering up his desire to kill her with athe socalled right to die.

He was offered a million dollars and to let her parents attempt to help with the rehab.

Some people are saying her current brain and activities place her in the 11 month old status?

So is it ok to let an 11 month old or younger to starve?

Pulling the feeding tube should clear the way for humane ways to put cats, kangaroo rats, deer, baby seals and Old growth Trees out of their miserable existence

[Thiebear]

I heard she moans during the week of her mentstration so she does feel pain.... She's not completely gone.. yet!

[gbear]

Judge just reinstated removing feeding tube after the other one blocked it. cnn.com has it, but the story is still the oen about it being blocked.

[jenmdixon]

Originally posted by NavyDave

Personally parents should have a say instead of a spouse I say that because you can always get a new spouse but never parents who are looking out for their daughter this guy who has moved on by bangin some other chick and having two kids shouldn't have any say unless you think he is still the loving husband.

Wow. Never thought I would hear a conservative give the impression that marriage in general is disposable.

I think that having parents have the final say instead of a spouse is dangerous. What about the case where the patient has made it clear verbally to one and all, including the parents, that life support (including feeding tubes) should be removed, and the parents ignore those wishes due to whatever reason (different values, belifs, etc.)? Or the reverse, where the child-patient WANTS to remain on life support but the parents decide to take them off because of (for arguments sake) they do not believe in invasive therapies/doctors/whatever?

The real issue is that in order to make your wishes known you MUST have it in writing, legally, and witnessed by BOTH people who know you and people who do not.

[Thiebear]

feeding tube was pulled...

Cowards... at least give her a lethal injection... This is just crazy... now she has to die over the next 14 daysish...

[Doozinbrah]

I don't have a problem if she decided that she wanted to not live if in this condition. My problem is that there is no proof she said she wanted to be put to death. Can you imagine your own son or daughter being "brain dead" and their spouse willing to let them "starve to death"? Any of you who have children and cannot understand what the parents are going through are Heartless. If you say she cannot feel anything cause she is brain dead then how is she being tortured by being kept alive? Its been 20 years already why not keep her alive another 20?

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by jenmdixon

Wow. Never thought I would hear a conservative give the impression that marriage in general is disposable.

I think that having parents have the final say instead of a spouse is dangerous. What about the case where the patient has made it clear verbally to one and all, including the parents, that life support (including feeding tubes) should be removed, and the parents ignore those wishes due to whatever reason (different values, belifs, etc.)? Or the reverse, where the child-patient WANTS to remain on life support but the parents decide to take them off because of (for arguments sake) they do not believe in invasive therapies/doctors/whatever?

The real issue is that in order to make your wishes known you MUST have it in writing, legally, and witnessed by BOTH people who know you and people who do not.

disposable? If anyone thinks marriage is disposable it's her husband who is banging some other woman while his wife who is still alive is in a hospital bed.

In sickness and in health? Anyone remember those vows?

[Ghost of]

This the same husband who didn't go today, but had his new wife speak for him.

Yeah, courage and conviction, Kimer. *cough*

[jenmdixon]

Originally posted by Johnny Punani

disposable? If anyone thinks marriage is disposable it's her husband who is banging some other woman while his wife who is still alive is in a hospital bed.

In sickness and in health? Anyone remember those vows?

Johnny, I was referring to NavyDave's comment where he said that you can always get another spouse. I was not commenting on what Mr. Schiavo feels or doesn't feel for his wife. I guess I did not make that clear enough.

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Johnny Punani

disposable? If anyone thinks marriage is disposable it's her husband who is banging some other woman while his wife who is still alive is in a hospital bed.

In sickness and in health? Anyone remember those vows?

I bet Newt Gingrich doesn't mind his actions...:cool:

[NoCalMike]

I just realized we have two threads on this.......anyone have the power to merge?

[AngusinFlorida]

All I can say is that I do not wish to exist as a "vegatable" if it were to ever happen to me. I would expect my wife to not keep me alive in this situation - my parents should not have a say in this unless I specified it in my living will. I can understand her parents need to feel that there is hope and I can't blame them for doing what they have done. I'm sure most of us, including Terri Schiavoe, would not want to remain in the condition that she has currently been in for over 20 years. Quality of life for the person effected and not the persons affected.

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by jenmdixon

Johnny, I was referring to NavyDave's comment where he said that you can always get another spouse. I was not commenting on what Mr. Schiavo feels or doesn't feel for his wife. I guess I did not make that clear enough.

I'm sorry. My Mistake. I should have read your post more clearly.

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by NoCalMike

I bet Newt Gingrich doesn't mind his actions...:cool:

Newt Gingrich's wife was in the exact same situation?

[NoCalMike]

Originally posted by Johnny Punani

Newt Gingrich's wife was in the exact same situation?

He left his wife on her deathbed and started sleeping with another woman, so actually thanks for correcting me, what Newt did was even worse.