gridironmike Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 This information was obtained at the Pro Football Researchers Association message board.... "Cliff Christl Weblog re: Irvin, Monk TUESDAY, Feb. 8, 2005, 6:14 p.m. Hall of Fame meeting As many of you know, I sit on the Hall of Fame selection committee. We had our meeting Saturday in Jacksonville and elected four new members. I thought Dan Marino and Steve Young were locks; and I thought Benny Friedman and Fritz Pollard deserved to be honored for being pioneers of the game as much as for being great players. We discussed 15 finalists over about four hours, although we spent little time on Marino and Young, the obvious choices. It was the same last year with John Elway and Barry Sanders. Nobody needs to sell anybody on the greatest of the great. But the others often stir lengthy debate after the hometown writer makes his initial presentation. Obviously, anybody that reaches the final 15 has some Hall of Fame credentials. But do they meet all or most standards? That's usually the debate. What is said in that room is supposed to stay in that room. Therefore, I'm not going to reveal the details of what anybody said or what positions anyone took. Maybe I'm being naive, but I also believe in the integrity of the process. I don't think the members of the committee are biased in any way or have any axes to grind. They simply have a difference of opinion on players. And that's to be expected. Except for the rare superstars, there are pros and cons to just about every debate. As usual, following the vote, the committee took its share of potshots and that, too, is to be expected. But my guess is that most of the talk radio hosts and fans who take those shots are simply shooting from the hip and haven't really researched the subject or bothered to talk to a wide range of coaches, scouts, etc. If they did, they'd realize those people also have mixed opinions about who deserves to get in and who doesn't. This year, we've been criticized mainly for not selecting Michael Irvin and Derrick Thomas. I believe both players belong in the Hall of Fame, but also realize that this was a strong group of finalists and it forced me and maybe some others to make some tough decisions in narrowing the field from 15 to 10 to six. That said, when Irvin reached the final six, it was simply a yes or no vote. I voted yes, but all it took was eight no votes out of 39 to deprive him of induction. The other criticism I've heard is that Art Monk belongs in the Hall. Again, I understand where his supporters are coming from. He left the game as the all-time leading receiver, with three Super Bowl rings and having stood the test of time. I also believe he was as good as or better than some receivers already in the Hall: Charlie Joiner, Lynn Swann and Steve Largent, among them. But Joiner, Swann and Largent were all voted in before I got on the committee and I doubt if I would have voted for any of them. On the flip side, Monk averaged only 13.5 yards per catch. He was tough across the middle, a superb blocker and and a selfless player, but he was never a big playmaker. That bothers me. He also was named to only three Pro Bowls in 16 years. I looked back at some old player rankings that reflected a consensus of scouts' opinions from when Monk played. I didn't have every year, but the highest Monk was ever rated was fourth. One year he was sixth. But there were years when he wasn't rated in the top 12. There also were years when one of his fellow wide receivers on the Redskins was rated ahead of him, including Gary Clark. In essence, Monk was never really regarded as one of the top three, four receivers in the game. More often than not, he was ranked about 10th. Is that good enough to get in the Hall, when you consider that he was a very good player for 15 years? Or should the Hall be open only to the very best: The players who rank among the top three, four at their positions over an extended period? That's why Monk has been a tough call for me. But they're almost all tough. I've had several personnel people tell me that Roger Wehrli was one of the great cornerbacks of all time. Among the scouts that I've talked to, Wehrli draws more praise than Monk. Ron Wolf told me that if we studied game film, Wehrli would be a cinch to make it. Yet Wehrli didn't get past the first vote. How many talk radio hosts took up his cause? Probably very few, if any, because they don't know anything about him. And that's my point. How many of our critics know that most scouts never rated Monk among the top eight to 10 receivers in the game, except for maybe after two or three of his biggest seasons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 blah blah only 13.5 yards per catch? ONLY? :doh: Who is this jackass.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gridironmike Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 Another note...Peter King says Bud Grant's CFL experience helped him get in. Will Hershel Walker stand a chance with his USFL experience? ""Peter King claims CFL career helped Bud Grant into HOF" GOOD QUESTION ABOUT WARREN MOON. From Gary of Thousand Oaks, Calif.: "Since it is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL Hall of Fame, will Warren Moon's tremendous CFL success have any significance in determining whether he gets in?'' It should, Gary. I know in the case of Bud Grant it did. So it'll be interesting to see if the voters take the CFL numbers and wins into the argument for Moon. My guess is we will, though they'll be downplayed because the CFL, obviously, is seen as a Double-A league compared to the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gridironmike Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally posted by illone Who is this jackass.... A sports writer that has covered the Packers for 40 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. S Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 add another to our houseburning list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDane Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 He looks like the love child of Jon Voight and Gregg Williams. Very scary. Oh, I'm sorry, did he write something too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsNut73 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I get the feeling Art may never make it into the Hall because of these buffoons. I know it took Swann 14 years to break through, but I have a bad feeling about Art. Every one of these clowns sounds like a parrot...just repeating whatever one of their fellow cronies spewed out. I bet if we compared this guy and King and Dr Z we'd see almost word-for-word phrases/stats/comments duplicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Only 13.5 per catch???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan12 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally posted by SkinsNut73 I get the feeling Art may never make it into the Hall because of these buffoons. I was just about to post the same sentiment. These "inside" revelations really hurt my confidence in this HOF system. Too bad there wasn't a way to include the fans in the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally posted by TheDane He looks like the love child of Jon Voight and Gregg Williams. Very scary. Oh, I'm sorry, did he write something too? haha, nahhh more like Morpheus and Jon Voight. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsNut73 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally posted by skinsfan12 I was just about to post the same sentiment. These "inside" revelations really hurt my confidence in this HOF system. Too bad there wasn't a way to include the fans in the decision. ....or at the very least rotate the journalists every 4 or 5 years. Give someone else a chance to have a say instead of leaving it to these meatheads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denverdan Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 "He was tough across the middle, a superb blocker and and a selfless player, but he was never a big playmaker. That bothers me." I guess Monk's mistake was not trying to catch 60 yd TDs every down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddyShoo Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally posted by TheDane He looks like the love child of Jon Voight and Gregg Williams. Very scary. Oh, I'm sorry, did he write something too? holy crap! you're absolutely right! :thud: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjinhan Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 well at least i can see where he is coming from... its not just Art... he also said he wouldnt have voted for some of the other WRs in the HOF right now... at least he isnt like King that thinks Swann deserves it cause he has the "play" in his career.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Showstopper Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 yea it seems like these "experts" are mindless robots, just saying the same crap over and over. i think the committee should be changed up and others should get to vote...perhaps some ppl with COMMON SENSE, enough to realize that Art should definetly be in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB44 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Hey Cliff, I got something for ya... :toilet: :pooh: I feel better now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconBlue Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 GD@MN these guys make me so mad I can hardly see straight! Why doesn't it ever occur to any of these buffoons that if they were so absolutely correct about whether or not Monk should get into the Hall that they wouldn't feel the need to write so may frickin idiotic diatribes trying to convince us and probably themselves that they're right? Get it straight people! MONK BELONGS in the Hall and that is all there is to it. Jesus on a pogostick these people are stupid:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconBlue Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Well I decided to whip off an email to this guy. I hope you all approve. It went like this: I have a quote that I believe is among the stupidest that have ever heard of from anyone affiliated with professional sports or it's coverage.I though perhaps you could tell me who uttered this nonsense. The qoute is as follows "He was tough across the middle, a superb blocker and and a selfless player, but he was never a big playmaker. That bothers me." What a buffoon huh? Well anyways I'll be looking forward to your response. Thanks in andvance, Bob Probably won't accomplish anything but I feel a little bit better:whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddogCT Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Not a big play maker? My work in progress list: Playoffs: 1983 Playoffs Monk has 2 TD's in a crushing victory over the Rams. 51-7. 1986 Playoffs Monks two TD catches propel the Redskins over the heavely favored SB champs. Wash vs Chicago: 5catches 81yards 2TD W 27-13 1991 Super Bowl Monk starts the game off with three catches and a TD that was called OB, but was in facked pushed out. Should have counted. 7 catches 113 yards 1TD (unoffical, but should have counted.) Reg Season: 1980 Giants 12/13: Joe Theismann’s third and seven pass to Art Monk gained 14 yards to the Giant 19. W16-13 Cards 12/21 Joe Theismann took full advantage with a beautiful 54-yard scoring pass to Art Monk. 2TD's W 31-7 1981 Cards 9/20 TD Monk 79 pass from Theismann L 40-39 Cards 11/1 Art Monk shook defender Carl Allen and Joe Theismann hit his wide receiver in stride with a 38-yard touchdown pass. Monk had another TD of 10 yards in the fourth quarter W 42-21 Lions 11/8 Monk 1 TD pass of 8 yards w 33-31 Bills 11/29 Monk 1 TD pass L 21-14 Colts 12/13 Monk 1 13 yard TD pass W 38-14 1982 Eagles 9/12 Joe Theismann fired two touchdown passes one to Art Monk and the other to Charlie Brown to give the Redskins the lead. Monk’s catch was a beauty, a leaping grab in the end zone. A 10-yard completion to Monk got the Skins into Eagles territory. With six seconds left, Theismann scrambled down to the 31. Moseley’s kick as time expired would have been good from 60 yards. In overtime, Monk caught one pass for 27 yards to set the Redskins up at the Philly 42. Three plays later, it was Theismann to Monk again, and Herman Edwards failed in a desperate attempt to knock it down. Monk spun around and rolled down to the nine. Gibbs immediately called for Moseley and his 26-yarder ended it with 4:47 gone in the extra period. To be continued..... :logo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fpickering Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Here is the jokers' email addr: cchristl@journalsentinel.com I am definitely going to destroy his "justification" of keepin Art out. I encourage others to do the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fpickering Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Here is the jokers' email addr: cchristl@journalsentinel.com I am definitely going to destroy his "justification" of keepin Art out. I encourage others to do the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Originally by Cliff Christl Maybe I'm being naive, but I also believe in the integrity of the process. I don't think the members of the committee are biased in any way or have any axes to grind. [/b] You're waaaaaaaaaaay past being naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 again someone looking for excusing to defend his actions. I love how he wants to ignore numbers, then later uses numbers against Monk. jack ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwo40 Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 "I looked back at some old player rankings that reflected a consensus of scouts' opinions from when Monk played. I didn't have every year, but the highest Monk was ever rated was fourth. One year he was sixth." So f*cking what?!! This man has pissed me off more than anything I have heard out of fatass King...B/c of his demented logic. Scouts? We're gonna determine Hall of Fame voting by what Scouts thought in an individual year?!! Instead of what the player meant to his team, or heaven forbid his production on the field, we're gonna take the opinons of scouts, some of whom no doubt thought Todd Blackledge would be a 1st Ballot hall of famer (and numerous other errors) when drafted. And then we are going to make it even more absurd by saying.... "Is that good enough to get in the Hall, when you consider that he was a very good player for 15 years? Or should the Hall be open only to the very best: The players who rank among the top three, four at their positions over an extended period" So let me get this straight....let's pick an abitrary number like 4 (over the much more common 5), to fit an opinion poll, so we can exclude a guy who played for 15 years somewhere in this range. That is some ****ing nerve believing that every year Art Monk was "exactly" the 5th best reciever in the league-and to exclude him b/c of that. And even playing the absurdity of this logic out to the end...How many other players were top 5 in the league for 15 years?!! My guess is what? One. Rice maybe. So he's got the consistency, the production, the qualities of being a well rounder player (see blocking)...but he misses out b/c a bunch of scouts didn't plan their entire gameplan around stopping him?!! You know Monk is a lot like Emmit Smith. He produced killing teams with dependable catches, and living a quiet respectable attitude. Yet he didn't have a ton of highlight circus catches.....Smith often was compared unfavorably to Sanders for the same reasons- no dazzling circus runs-just production over several several years. Then when Emmit breaks the rushing record suddenly his durablity and stability-is something to be honored and respected. Yet Emmit will get into the hall w/o thought. Why is Monk held out? He did the same thing...he lasted long enough to break an all time record with class, wasn't thought of as a spectacular threat, but at the end of the day helped his team to win. The Hall voters need to think about things like this, but I am too pissed to focus this into a real arguement. We have to get these morons to open their eyes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rook Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Originally posted by MaddogCT Not a big play maker? My work in progress list: Playoffs: 1983 Playoffs Monk has 2 TD's in a crushing victory over the Rams. 51-7. 1986 Playoffs Monks two TD catches propel the Redskins over the heavely favored SB champs. Wash vs Chicago: 5catches 81yards 2TD W 27-13 1991 Super Bowl Monk starts the game off with three catches and a TD that was called OB, but was in facked pushed out. Should have counted. 7 catches 113 yards 1TD (unoffical, but should have counted.) Reg Season: 1980 Giants 12/13: Joe Theismann’s third and seven pass to Art Monk gained 14 yards to the Giant 19. W16-13 Cards 12/21 Joe Theismann took full advantage with a beautiful 54-yard scoring pass to Art Monk. 2TD's W 31-7 1981 Cards 9/20 TD Monk 79 pass from Theismann L 40-39 Cards 11/1 Art Monk shook defender Carl Allen and Joe Theismann hit his wide receiver in stride with a 38-yard touchdown pass. Monk had another TD of 10 yards in the fourth quarter W 42-21 Lions 11/8 Monk 1 TD pass of 8 yards w 33-31 Bills 11/29 Monk 1 TD pass L 21-14 Colts 12/13 Monk 1 13 yard TD pass W 38-14 1982 Eagles 9/12 Joe Theismann fired two touchdown passes one to Art Monk and the other to Charlie Brown to give the Redskins the lead. Monk’s catch was a beauty, a leaping grab in the end zone. A 10-yard completion to Monk got the Skins into Eagles territory. With six seconds left, Theismann scrambled down to the 31. Moseley’s kick as time expired would have been good from 60 yards. In overtime, Monk caught one pass for 27 yards to set the Redskins up at the Philly 42. Three plays later, it was Theismann to Monk again, and Herman Edwards failed in a desperate attempt to knock it down. Monk spun around and rolled down to the nine. Gibbs immediately called for Moseley and his 26-yarder ended it with 4:47 gone in the extra period. To be continued..... :logo: Sweet work Maddog. Keep up the good work and keep us posted. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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