If Irvin Beats Monk In

[[[ghost]]]

Originally posted by Cskin

Remember... today's voters for the HOF factor in how much self promotion the player engaged in throughout his career in to the overall decision. No longer is about the performance on the field and the comparison of statistics. Now it's about.... "he really drew attention to himself and simply wouldn't be ignored".

So... pricks like Deion and Irvin may get in before Monk.

Hell... I'm suprised Barry Sanders was elected... considering how he just did his job and handed the ball to the referee when scoring touchdowns. Art Monk is the Barry Sanders of receivers. Quiet... high work ethic.... do whatever the coaches tells him.... sacrifice individual statistics for team wins. Sadly, the HOF voters ignore those core values in today's balloting.

i would refuse to call it the hall of fame, more like the hall of ****

[barefoot]

If Irvin gets in first, I think Monk should pull his name out, I wouldn't want Monk to be associated with a list of recievers that includes Michael "No Speaka Da Inglesh" Irvin.

[Montilar]

Aditionally, Irvin had 2 more 1,000 yard seasons plus Monk only had 800 more career yards and 3 more TDs, despite an additional 65 games in his career.

Oh, when factoring in STATS, let's also not forget Monk had season shortened due to strikes.

So when you look at his season and say he didn't have but X number of catches, or less than 1000 yrds, remember the strikes.... but of course NO ONE would even think of that as a factor....

[Commander PK]

It burns me up everytime I think about the fact that Monk isn't in the Hall. He deserves to be there. Irvin getting in before Monk would be a friggin greek tragedy!

[bubba9497]

the probowl argument is pointless. It is a popularity contest and no real inticator of how well player prefomed each year.

there are always deserving players left off and over hyped players going like Trotter this season.

[Ken]

While I understand the interest in getting Monk into the hall, I am not understanding the complete lack of respect for Irvin.

Monk was a great WR. Very consistent and professional.

Irvin was dominant. Had to change rules for the way he played. You guys say pushing off like it was illegal then. There was legal hand checking back then. Irvin was a master.

He was a key cog in helping the Cowboys to 3 titles and being the team of the 90's.

You could be beat out by a worse player than Irvin.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by Ken

Had to change rules for the way he played. You guys say pushing off like it was illegal then. There was legal hand checking back then. Irvin was a master.

:doh: it was as it is now, NO changes in the rules for offensive PI.

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.

( Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.

© Driving through a defender who has established a position on the field.

[Ken]

Originally posted by bubba9497

:doh: it was as it is now, NO changes in the rules for offensive PI.

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:

(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.

( Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.

© Driving through a defender who has established a position on the field.

The rule was not enforced.

Were seeing the same thing with contact after 5 yards this year. Deion was the best defensive hand checker to ever play the game. We aren't going to hold that against him, are we?

Wr/CB intereraction was much more physical when Irivin played. i would take that any day over what we have now.

CBs also had the same ability to be physical with Irvin, they just couldn't.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by Ken

The rule was not enforced.

Were seeing the same thing with contact after 5 yards this year. Deion was the best defensive hand checker to ever play the game. We aren't going to hold that against him, are we?

Wr/CB intereraction was much more physical when Irivin played. i would take that any day over what we have now.

CBs also had the same ability to be physical with Irvin, they just couldn't.

yes it was except for Irvin. many players, coaches, broadcasters complained regularly about his star treatment in leeway of the rule.

[HeHateMe]

Originally posted by bubba9497

yes it was except for Irvin. many players, coaches, broadcasters complained regularly about his star treatment in leeway of the rule.

Like Jerry Rice?

Irvin would benefit greatly from the new rules.

The physicality he brought would be very beneficial to his success.

[scruffylookin]

I think it's great Irvin is a finalist. The hypocrisy of the HOF voters will be exposed for all to see.

Let's see, Monk shouldn't get in because the league went "pass happy" in the 80's. I guess that excludes Irvin....right? Since the league has been far more "pass happy" in the 90's.

Irvin has a better YPC and total TD number than Monk. Plus he went to more Pro Bowls? Really? So Gary Clark, who SHOULD be in the Hall too IMHO, who matches Irvin stat for stat should get in too and yet nobody is putting his name up for consideration?

Irvin, despite his "off field issues":bong: belongs in the HOF. But so does Gary Clark and both guys should get in only AFTER Art Monk goes in.

I'd love to hear King's or Dr. Z defend putting Irvin in and not putting in Clark when they're career numbers a virtually identical.

Gary and Art, never had a HOF QB throwing them passes and they had eachother plus Ricky Sanders taking receptions away.

Last point. One criteria cited was "best at his position" Michael Irvin NEVER EVER was considered the best WR in the game.

This will be very interesting to see what happens.

[pr11fan]

Before I get jumped on, what I mean by that is he only went to 3 pro bowls in 16 seasons.

And we all know how probowls are the last word in the greatness of a player I mean just look at the stellar players that made it this year :cough: Trotter :cough:

[HeHateMe]

Gary and Art, never had a HOF QB throwing them passes and they had eachother plus Ricky Sanders taking receptions away.

Last point. One criteria cited was "best at his position" Michael Irvin NEVER EVER was considered the best WR in the game.

This will be very interesting to see what happens. [/b]

While Aikman will end up in the HOF, he was never one to put up big numbers and Dallas hardly had what was considered a passing offense.

As you all know, Norv was there doing his thing.

And the O was centered around Emmitt.

I know the same can be said about the Skins pound it out style as well, but Irvin was never in an O that passed too much.

[pr11fan]

Originally posted by HeHateMe

While Aikman will end up in the HOF, he was never one to put up big numbers and Dallas hardly had what was considered a passing offense.

As you all know, Norv was there doing his thing.

And the O was centered around Emmitt.

I know the same can be said about the Skins pound it out style as well, but Irvin was never in an O that passed too much.

The points still remain, Irvin played with Aikman his whole career, you don't think if Monk had a future hof qb he wouldn't have put up big #'s. Also he had a top 5 rb of all time, Irvin was dangerous but who were defenses keying to stop if they had to choose one guy, my guess is emmitt. I'm not saying Irvin isn't a hof'er but if Monk isn't in then neither should Irvin be.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by HeHateMe

While Aikman will end up in the HOF, he was never one to put up big numbers and Dallas hardly had what was considered a passing offense.

As you all know, Norv was there doing his thing.

And the O was centered around Emmitt.

I know the same can be said about the Skins pound it out style as well, but Irvin was never in an O that passed too much.

[HeHateMe]

Originally posted by pr11fan

The points still remain, Irvin played with Aikman his whole career, you don't think if Monk had a future hof qb he wouldn't have put up big #'s. Also he had a top 5 rb of all time, Irvin was dangerous but who were defenses keying to stop if they had to choose one guy, my guess is emmitt. I'm not saying Irvin isn't a hof'er but if Monk isn't in then neither should Irvin be.

I think they should both be in the HOF.

Period.

They are both deserving and were incredible game breaking/changing WRs.

It will be an injustice if either is left out. :2cents:

[Oldskool]

Originally posted by HeHateMe

I think they should both be in the HOF.

Period.

They are both deserving and were incredible game breaking/changing WRs.

It will be an injustice if either is left out. :2cents:

agreed but lets put this in perspective.

If Monk cant get in, no way that Irvin should get in.

and for justice to be served, Monk would go in before Irvin.

[HeHateMe]

Originally posted by bubba9497

In 96 he was suspended for 5 games.:doh:

And in 89, he tore his knee in the 6th game.

And then in his last season, in the 4th game, his last game,:cry: he suffered the neck injury.

http://www.hickoksports.com/biograph/irvinmichael.shtml

He was chosen in the first round of the 1988 NFL draft by the Dallas Cowboys. As a rookie, he caught 32 passes for 654 yards, a 20.4 average, and 5 touchdowns.

Irvin suffered a knee injury in the sixth game of 1989 and missed the rest of that season and the first month of the 1990 season, when he was a backup. However, he became a starter in 1991 and led the NFL in reception yardage with 1,523 yards on 93 catches, a 16.4 average, scoring 8 touchdowns. He caught 78 passes for 1,396 yards in 1992 and 88 for 1,330 yards in 1993.

He was one of the "Big Three," with running back Emmitt Smith and quarterback Troy Aikman, on the Dallas teams that won three Super Bowls in a four-year stretch. Irvin often functioned as a possession receiver, willing to catch the ball over the middle to pick up the first down, but he also had exceptional running ability that often allowed him to turn a short reception into a long gain.

He was named an All-Pro wide receiver three consecutive years, 1991 through 1993, and went to the Pro Bowl five years in a row, 1991 through 1995. In 1995, he set an NFL single season record with 11 games in which he had more than 100 yards receiving.

After making his 750th career catch on Oct. 10, 1999, Irvin suffered a spinal injury when his head slammed into the turf at Veterans' Stadium in Philadelphia. The injury forced him to announce his retirement after the season ended.

[HeHateMe]

Originally posted by Oldskool

agreed but lets put this in perspective.

If Monk cant get in, no way that Irvin should get in.

and for justice to be served, Monk would go in before Irvin.

Yes, I am still wondering why Monk isnt in.

But stranger things have happened.

His day will come.

As will Irvins.

[MeNoRevs]

I believe overall Irvin has better numbers?

[SkinsFTW]

Originally posted by MeNoRevs

I believe overall Irvin has better numbers?

If the only number that counts is yards per catch.

Monk 940 12721 13.5 68

Irvin 750 11904 15.9 65

Close? Not really but when you put Irvins numbers up against people like Sterling Sharpe and Herman Moore/Cris Carter in the same years his numbers dont look so great.

Here are Sterling Sharpes 92/93 numbers, those were the first 2 Dallas SB years.

Sharpe 1992 108 1461 13.5 13

1993 112 1274 11.4 11

1994 94 1119 11.9 18

Sharpe retired after that season

Irvin 1992 78 1396 17.9 7

1993 88 1330 15.1 7

1994 79 1241 15.7 6

Sharpe made Irvins numbers look average.

1995 was that freak year when a bunch of receivers had unbelievable numbers.

Moore 1995 123 1686 13.7 14

Rice 1995 122 1848 15.1 15

Bruce 1995 119 1781 15.0 13

Carter 1994 122 1256 10.3 7

1995 122 1371 11.2 17

Irvin 1995 111 1603 14.4 10

Now Irvin made the Pro bowl in 91-95 when Dallas was at its peak but look at those numbers in 92-94, are those really Pro Bowl numbers? Monk missed the pro bowl on the Redskins first 2 SB wins because he was injured part of both seasons and had bad numbers but Irvin makes it with average receiver numbers during those seasons because they were the SB champs. In Irvins best season which was 1995 here is how he stacks up and this is the year after Sharpe was forced to retire or he would have made it even worse:

1995

Receptions

H Moore 123

C Carter 122

J Rice 122

I Bruce 119

M Irvin 111

B Perriman 108

E Metcalf 104

R Brooks 102

L Centers 101

C Pickens 99

Receiving yards

J Rice 1848

I Bruce 1781

H Moore 1686

M Irvin 1603

R Brooks 1497

B Perriman 1488

C Carter 1371

T Brown 1342

Y Thigpen 1307

J Graham 1301

Receiving TDs

C Carter 17

C Pickens 17

J Rice 15

A Miller 14

H Moore 14

R Brooks 13

I Bruce 13

C Conway 12

B Brooks 11

T Brown 10

M Irvin 10

So basically Irvin in by far his best season was no better than the 5th best WR that year and its true that he probably loses some TDs (he was 10th) because of Emmitt no doubt but still look at those other guys numbers and Monk gets no credit from the voters for losing TDs to Riggins who had 24 one year or Clark/Sanders who were there for the later part of his career.

Monk should have at least made the Pro Bowl in 1989 as the 3rd best receiver in the NFL that year but I wouldnt really give him any other pro bowls than that but consider Lofton making the pro bowl with these numbers and maybe Monk should have made it 6 times:

Lofton 1978 46 818 17.8 6

1980 71 1226 17.3 4

1983 58 1300 22.4 8

1984 62 1361 22.0 7

1985 69 1153 16.7 4

1991 57 1072 18.8 8

Monks 3 Pro Bowl years:

106 1372 12.9 7

91 1226 13.5 2

73 1068 14.6 4

How does Lofton make it in 1984 with about 1/2 the receptions of Monk?

Sure Monks best touchdown totals were 8 in 1989 and 1991 but the Redskins offense wasnt pure passing and they spread the ball around when they did pass so yeah Monk wasnt dominant but he got more first downs than any receiver in the 1980s and now only Rice and Carter beat him because they played through the 90s. when 100 catches was not exceptional

Heres 1984s receptions total from the year when Monk broke the record and no one was close like when his record was eventually broken in one season by 5 or 6 receivers.

1984 Receptions

A Monk 106

O Newsome 89

J Wilder 85

J Stallworth 80

T Christensen 80

R Green 78

J Jones 77

K House 76

S Largent 74

M Clayton 73

No WR within 26 receptions.

1985 was the season that Theisman went down midseason and Riggins retired yet Monk still had these numbers:

1985 Receptions

R Craig 92

A Monk 91

L James 86

T Christensen 82

B Woolfolk 80

S Largent 79

M Shuler 76

J Stallworth 75

T Hill 74

M Quick 73

Do you think Irvin would do as well as he did if Walsh was throwing to him?

[DCMONEY]

Originally posted by steveskins

Except that Sanders>Monk. So ofcourse he's a first ballot. It's indisputable that Sanders is arguably the greatest RB of all time. Smith may hold the record, but he didn't amass yards in the fashion that Sanders did, and Sanders quit in his prime. This will always help your legacy. Monk was a great WR, but you can't really call him the best ever, and with Gibbs teams, the sum was always greater than the parts. However, I do agree he should be in, although I'm not sure if he's better than Irvin or not.

There's a thing called respect. Some people deserve to be in on the 1st Ballot. Its not about who is better. Monk bottom line was #1 All-time when he retired period. I for one don't use Championships as a criteria when judging individuals in team sports but since the powers that be do use that criteria Monk has 3 rings also. #1 All-time and three Championships is criteria enough to be voted in on the 1st ballot. I feel Monk should say something about it when he's finally voted in but I know he won't because he's class act. He'll handle this just like his on field and off field demeanor. Quiet like. Monk didn't bring attention to himself, that why he didn't get in 1st time around.

[SkinsFTW]

I just wish they would get him in now instead of embarassing themselves and waiting 10 more years because he will get in.

John Stallworth got in with these numbers:

14 years 537 8723 16.2 63

Monks numbers again:

15 years 940 12721 13.5 68

Just for reference though, here is John Stallworths numbers during the 70s when the Steelers were winning.

1974 16 269 16.8 1

1975 20 423 21.1 4

1976 9 111 12.3 2

1977 44 784 17.8 7

1978 41 798 19.5 9

1979 70 1183 16.9 8

1980 9 197 21.9 1

His best season was the season after Bradshaw retired; 1984 80 1395 17.4 11.

So saying he was an intregal part of their 4 Super Bowls is BS. Only in 1979 did he even put up respectable numbers. He really is only a guy who has 537 receptions who happened to be on those great teams that produced a pile of HOFers.

If Stallworth or even Swann (dont laugh) 336 5462 16.3 51 gets in then Monk should have been in a long time ago.

Want to see Swann's best season numbers?

61 880 14.4 11

Those are his best in receptions and yards and touchdowns from 1978 and he is in the HOF. The guy never had a 1000 yard season. In Swanns best season he wasnt in the Top 10 in receptions but he is in the HOF because he played on those SB winning teams. If the Redskins were treated similarly we would have Monk/Clark in the HOF as receivers. We would also have Butts/Manley/Mann as DLmen, Grimm/Jacoby as OLmen and Mosley (what other kicker was league MVP) Don Warren at the very least. Of course Darrell Green will get in though.

[Dan T.]

Originally posted by lolhahaha

I just wish they would get him in now instead of embarassing themselves and waiting 10 more years because he will get in.

John Stallworth got in with these numbers:

14 years 537 8723 16.2 63

Monks numbers again:

15 years 940 12721 13.5 68

Just for reference though, here is John Stallworths numbers during the 70s when the Steelers were winning.

1974 16 269 16.8 1

1975 20 423 21.1 4

1976 9 111 12.3 2

1977 44 784 17.8 7

1978 41 798 19.5 9

1979 70 1183 16.9 8

1980 9 197 21.9 1

His best season was the season after Bradshaw retired; 1984 80 1395 17.4 11.

So saying he was an intregal part of their 4 Super Bowls is BS. Only in 1979 did he even put up respectable numbers. He really is only a guy who has 537 receptions who happened to be on those great teams that produced a pile of HOFers.

If Stallworth or even Swann (dont laugh) 336 5462 16.3 51 gets in then Monk should have been in a long time ago.

Want to see Swann's best season numbers?

61 880 14.4 11

Those are his best in receptions and yards and touchdowns from 1978 and he is in the HOF. The guy never had a 1000 yard season. In Swanns best season he wasnt in the Top 10 in receptions but he is in the HOF because he played on those SB winning teams. If the Redskins were treated similarly we would have Monk/Clark in the HOF as receivers. We would also have Butts/Manley/Mann as DLmen, Grimm/Jacoby as OLmen and Mosley (what other kicker was league MVP) Don Warren at the very least. Of course Darrell Green will get in though.

I was with ya right up until the Donnie Warren part.

[shippy1973]

Something that would be enough for me to put Art in instead of Irvin right now is the fact that Art was the ALL TIME LEADER IN RECEPTIONS a one point in his career and held the MOST RECEPTIONS IN A SEASON record for 8 years. What else do you need to make it? Steve Largent got in. Now, it is Monk's turn.