For those who think our Front Office sucks, I got news for you. They didn't in 2004

[inmate running the asylum]

For those of you who thought our front office SUCKS and that we overpay for free agents, well I got news for you. We didn’t in 2004. In fact the FO criticism inspired me to do some research and write this literary treatise on the subject. :paranoid: [before posting, checks first to see if Om the bard is lurking on the board]. In fact it might even inspire me to write an Omian trilogy on the subject, depending on the acceptance of course. :paranoid:

Keep in mind the decision not to sign Jevon Kearse to a $20 Mil signing bonus was the right decision, allowing us to sign more players. So lets take a look at who was available last year and who we signed and what we paid them, before making up our minds.

Defensive Tackle:

These were the high profile free agent players available last spring. Who got the best player at the best price? We did. Griffin had an all pro year, whereas Sapp is now 32 and disappeared. Coleman has had a good year, but Atlanta’s SB was $ 2 million higher then what we paid for Griffin.

Rod Coleman - $ 10.0 SB - 6 yrs @ $ 28.5 million

Robaire Smith - $ 8.0 SB - 6 yrs @ $ 26.3 million

Cornelius Griffin - $ 8.3 SB - 6 yrs @ $ 31 million

Warren Sapp - $ 7.0 SB - 7 yrs @ $ 36.6 million

P.S. The Lions just signed Shaun Rogers for 6 yrs @ $46 million and gave him a $15 million SB. Compare that to Griffin's contract, who had a better season then Rogers and it appears we stole Griffin.

Cornerback:

Denver overpaid for Champ if you ask me by a long shot. They guaranteed him $27 million over the first three years, which is almost 3 times what we gave Springs. Champ is not the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders and is not a shut down corner! Plummer and Winfield got $1-2 million more then Springs, but it was Springs who had the all pro season.

Champ Bailey - $ 18.0 SB + $ 5M RB - 7 yrs @ $ 63 million -

$ 27 M guaranteed in first 3 years

Ahmed Plummer - $ 11.0 SB - 5 yrs @ ?

Antione Winfield - $ 10.8 SB - 6 yrs @ $ 34.8 million

Shawn Springs - $ 10.0 SB - 6 yrs @ $ 30 million

Outside Linebacker:

I’m not sure what kind of season Bullock had, but Tennessee paid him almost double what we paid Washington. Wilson had an all pro season, but Denver paid $4 million more then we paid Washington, who also had an all pro season.

Keith Bullock - $ 12.5 SB - ext. 6 yrs @ $ 36 million

Al Wilson - $ 11.0 SB - 7 yrs @ $ 42 million

Marcus Washington - $ 7.0 SB - 6 yrs @ $ 24 million

Ian Gold - $ 5.0 SB - 7 yrs @ $ 30 million

Running back:

We paid a lot for Portis, but still lower then what the Chargers gave Tomlinson. Plus we got him with two cheap years still remaining on his Denver contract. So how can we complain?

LaDainian Tomlinson - $ 20.0 GB - 8 yrs @ $ 60 million; $12.4 SB+ 3.1 RB(04)+ 4.46 RB05

Clinton Portis - $ 12.9 GB (11.5 SB + $1.4M RB)

8 yrs @ $ 50.5 million

Quarterback:

Here is where Gibbs screwed up, but we really can’t blame this on the front office can we? This was Gibbs personal decision. Gibbs jumped the gun here, when he should have waited to see how things were going to fall out, and what other quarterbacks were going to be available. But instead he had Brunell signed, sealed and delivered before free agency even opened.

Garcia didn’t become available until much later in free agency, after Brunell was already signed. Griese has had a good year for Tampa Bay, once he got to start. Collins started off terrible, but the last 5-6 games he has played well. And he didn’t cost much either.

Mark Brunell - $ 8.6 SB - 7 yrs @ $ 43.36 million

Jeff Garcia - $ -5.0 SB - 4 yrs @ $ 25 million

Kerry Collins - $ .500k SB - 2 yrs @ $ 2.2 million

Brian Griese - $ .400k SB - 3 yrs @ $ 18 million

Comments: Yeah we paid Phillip Daniels a $ 3 million SB and Mike Barrow $ 2.5 million, but you can’t blame unforseeable injuries on Greg Williams. What about the real bargains he found in Joe Salave’a, Demetric Evans, Ron Warner, Ryan Clark, Chris Clemons, etc., who we signed for peanuts?

So I think things are looking up, compared to past years. And don't forget, all our draft picks made the team this year. So I'm not going to complain if the Skins FO doesn't sign Smoot or Samuels to big contracts, if they try to hold us up financially.

Hmm. I wish someone else would do this research. Sh!t I got better things to do, then hang out with you turkeys.

I think I'm going to have to ask DieHard for a raise, when he gets back from his hunting trip in the Canadian outback. Woodpecker season opened on September 1st and I know he wants to bag his limit. Last year I think he said he bagged 3 woodpeckers; a titmouse and a yellow-bellied sapsucker, who got confused and flew north instead of south for the winter. :paranoid:

[BG]

I sure as hell hope Portis works out, and I think he will. We'll have to re-think the offensive runniong scheme and I have no doubt that Joe is going to be working on that throughout the off-season.

Yes, Brunell was a huge blunder and that does fall on coach. But I seriously wonder how many of these guys were handpicked by Greg Williams as opposed to Vinny putting them in his lap.

When bashing Vinny, which is always easy to do :laugh:, you have to bring up his tenure here and it has been shakey to say the least.

It just seems that the pieces don't fit and we aren't getting many of our players from the draft. I think that is what we all wish for now in hindsight that we built cheaper and younger through the draft.

[inmate running the asylum]

Originally posted by BG

It just seems that the pieces don't fit and we aren't getting many of our players from the draft. I think that is what we all wish for now in hindsight that we built cheaper and younger through the draft.

You mention the pieces don't fit. But I think that with the exception of Brunell, most of the players brought in during 2004, did very well. Portis even with a subpar O-line, still got 1300 yards rushing and might have had more if he hadn't got hurt in the Dallas game.

The pieces that don't fit, seem to be players that were already here from previous regimes, which I think Gibbs is weeding out.

But you have to admit, the Skins FO did a very good job of signing free agents last year.

[BG]

Well like you, I am not going to compile a huge list here...

Better yet, I won't compile one at all. :laugh:

If we are assuming that both coaches excercise veto power or have the final say, than Gibbs/Snyderatto did not do well on offense. Portis being the exception.

Some of the retreads brought in, short of Thrash, were not good.

We got a gem in Cooley and perhaps the young tackles can prove to be worth more than their draft position.

Lets hope that we get something for Gardner and start building the offense back up with some more young, DRAFTED talent.

[Westbrook36]

It seems to me that your "front office" made the offensive choices while Williams hand picked who he wanted on defense.

So, that being said, I'd say your "front office" was disappointing in regards to talent evaluation and the deals they signed as every one of your offensive acquisitions were overpaid.

[inmate running the asylum]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

It seems to me that your "front office" made the offensive choices while Williams hand picked who he wanted on defense.

So, that being said, I'd say your "front office" was disappointing in regards to talent evaluation and the deals they signed as every one of your offensive acquisitions were overpaid.

With the exception of Brunell, who did the Skins overpay on offense in 2004? Walter Rasby and Cory Raymer were not great acquisitions, but at least we didn't overpay them. The average salary now is $1.1 million.

It must be admitted, however, that Greg Williams acquisitions were brilliant -- at least he got them to play that way -- whereas Gibbs and Bugel's acquisitions came up short. But with the exception of Brunell, I don't think anyone was overpaid this year.

[jakehunter]

Why did you compare Portis to LT? LT got more money, but he's a better player. Portis is very overpaid, and the Skins have proven over and over they can't hang with the big boys. You've got a neglect at some spots, and no matter what you paid Brunell compared to what other over the hill QB's made... he's still overpaid.

[BG]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

It seems to me that your "front office" made the offensive choices while Williams hand picked who he wanted on defense.

So, that being said, I'd say your "front office" was disappointing in regards to talent evaluation and the deals they signed as every one of your offensive acquisitions were overpaid.

But see, there is no evience as to who is really in charge of player acquisition.

I'd like to assume that is the case- that GW picked the defense, because Snderatto haven't done a bang up job on defense up until this point.

It's funny how when Gibbs tried to explain the ease of the FA signings and scouting, he would always speak of himself, "Dan, Vinny and the scouting dept." Never a mention of Greg, so we can assume from there....

[CrazyZeb]

Originally posted by BG

But see, there is no evience as to who is really in charge of player acquisition.

I'd like to assume that is the case- that GW picked the defense, because Snderatto haven't done a bang up job on defense up until this point.

It's funny how when Gibbs tried to explain the ease of the FA signings and scouting, he would always speak of himself, "Dan, Vinny and the scouting dept." Never a mention of Greg, so we can assume from there....

I'm pretty sure he always said everyone was involved, every coach, etc.

[BG]

Originally posted by jakehunter

Why did you compare Portis to LT? LT got more money, but he's a better player. Portis is very overpaid, and the Skins have proven over and over they can't hang with the big boys. You've got a neglect at some spots, and no matter what you paid Brunell compared to what other over the hill QB's made... he's still overpaid.

Are you friggin kidding me?

They have identical statistics.

Tomlinson is now (can't believe I'd ever say this) on a better offense with more threats.

Come on dude, if you are gonna hate, at least hate with points you can back up.

[inmate running the asylum]

Originally posted by jakehunter

1. Why did you compare Portis to LT? LT got more money, but he's a better player. Portis is very overpaid,

2. and the Skins have proven over and over they can't hang with the big boys.

3. You've got a neglect at some spots, and no matter what you paid Brunell compared to what other over the hill QB's made... he's still overpaid.

1. Why did I compare Portis to LT? Because we are talking about 2004 here, and Portis and LT are the only name backs I recall getting new contracts in 2004. :doh: This thread is not even about who is the best back. Portis is overpaid? Bullfeathers! How can you say he is overpaid when he gained 1500; 1500 and 1300 yards in three seasons!

2. Whats that comment got to do with the price of tea in China? So whats new? Neither can any of the other sub .500 teams, such as Dallas, Tennessee, etc., etc.

3. You need to learn to read more closely. I said Brunell was overpaid. :doh:

[BG]

Originally posted by CrazyZeb

I'm pretty sure he always said everyone was involved, every coach, etc.

I don't remember him ever mentioning GW, which is why I am kind of eluding to the fact that maybe Greg did his own thing on defensive pickups.....

By the way that is Lavar at my old high school in your sig...

[inmate running the asylum]

Originally posted by BG

But see, there is no evience as to who is really in charge of player acquisition.

According to newspaper reports, its a committee approach. Gibbs and Williams tell Vinny and the scouting department what they are looking for and then free agents are brought in for tryouts. Everyone has some input, but Williams has pretty much final say on defense. Gibbs however decides which players make the final roster.

In fact, Gibbs said after the draft, THAT IT WAS GREG WILLIAMS who finally talked him into drafting Sean Taylor. I think Gibbs had been leaning toward Kellen Winslow.

Snyder decides any tie votes and handles contract negoitations.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

It seems to me that your "front office" made the offensive choices while Williams hand picked who he wanted on defense.

So, that being said, I'd say your "front office" was disappointing in regards to talent evaluation and the deals they signed as every one of your offensive acquisitions were overpaid.

nope wrong again

[SkinsFTW]

Before the season I was wondering what they expected from Brunell to pay him that kind of money. He was coming off an injury that cost him almost a full season and never had great numbers to begin with and he was always sacked a lot in the past. Now I'm still wondering what Gibbs expected from him. Also I heard they didnt even get a workout from him before the signing.

For him to earn that paycheck he would have had to come in here playing at his 97-99 level or better. That may have been the only major mistake they made but that is one HUGE mistake comfusing a 34 year old Brunell for Rich Gannon.

[pr11fan]

Snyder decides any tie votes and handles contract negoitations.

And there is a huge part of the problem along with Bug Eyes. 43 million for Brunell, no problem, Portis had 2 years left on his deal, could've said do it for us for a season and we'll take care of you, but Snyder says, oh he did it in Denver so here's 50 million.

[inmate running the asylum]

Originally posted by pr11fan

And there is a huge part of the problem along with Bug Eyes. 43 million for Brunell, no problem, Portis had 2 years left on his deal, could've said do it for us for a season and we'll take care of you, but Snyder says, oh he did it in Denver so here's 50 million.

I'm not saying Bug Eyes and Snyder haven't made mistakes in the past, but in the two examples you use, you're blaming the wrong person. Signing and paying Brunell $43 million was Gibbs move entirely and his fault.

As for Portis, we actually got two cheap years in the bargain which were still on his Denver contract (2004-2005). The $50 million was an extension after that. But anyway you cut it, there was no way Portis was going to come to the Redskins, unless he got his SB, which by the way is far less then Tomlinson got.

So actually you will see that we get Portis for 3 cheap seasons, before his salary jumps to $3.5 million in 2007, which even then is far below his market value.

Portis, Clinton

Salary History

2004 380000.00

2005 455000.00

2006 545000.00

2007 3500000.00

2008 5048500.00

2009 6627000.00

2010 7690500.00

2011 8754000.00

Back to Results

[pr11fan]

I'm not saying Bug Eyes and Snyder haven't made mistakes in the past, but in the two examples you use, you're blaming the wrong person. Signing and paying Brunell $43 million was Gibbs move entirely and his fault.

I agree, bringing in Brunell was Gibbs fault, after all why hire a real GM to give input and help him......but I'm assuming the contract #'s were Snyder's doing, if Gibbs is negotiating contracts this organization is even more screwed up than I initially thought.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

inmate~

You are not looking long term. Our Cap is a mess while other teams are in the playoffs millions of dollars under the cap and have mulitple picks in rounds 1-4.

Face it you can fill the cup half way but the other half is still empty and the kool aid is getting lower every season. When the freidnly contracts become unfriendly;) If there is such thing as Cap hell we do expeirience it wether you want to believe it or not.

[inmate running the asylum]

Originally posted by RDSKNfaithfull

inmate~

You are not looking long term. Our Cap is a mess while other teams are in the playoffs millions of dollars under the cap and have mulitple picks in rounds 1-4.

Face it you can fill the cup half way but the other half is still empty and the kool aid is getting lower every season. When the freidnly contracts become unfriendly;) If there is such thing as Cap hell we do expeirience it wether you want to believe it or not.

Actually I am looking long term, but I wanted to show you guys that since Gibbs took over in 2004, the FO seems to be making a lot better decisions as far as signing free agents -- exception being Brunell.

Admittedly we aren't doing as well as the Buzzards from a cap standpoint, but then neither are most of the other teams.

I wouldn't say our cap is a mess quite yet and we may yet squeeze out of a problem with the big TV contracts ballooning the cap up in 2006. A lot depends on how we handle Samuels contract. If we lose Smoot I don't think it will be a disaster. I think someone like Walt Harris could hold the fort down or maybe we can sign Ken Lucas.

As for draft picks, Gibbs didn't come back for the long haul. He came back to turn this franchise around quickly, and you don't do that by building through the draft too much. When Gibbs was here last time, Beathard usually traded away our high draft picks, so you can expect the same from Gibbs.

This team really doesn't have that many holes to plug to turn this team into a playoff contender. Its not an old team. I mean if we can do to the offense this year, what Williams did with the defense, we're on our way.

If the worse team in football last year -- 2-14 San Diego -- can turn it around in one season and make the playoffs, why can't we this coming year? Look at our defense. We've got more going for us right now, then the Chargers had at the end of last season.

[Mr. S]

one thing though, on the defensive side we made some awesome acquisitions, and on the offensive side only Portis. However, as alluded to, we made too many FA acquisitions. Now I think the point of this thread was that our FO did well in evaluating talent, so the thread is pretty accurate.

People are bringing cap implications in, and in this case, we have a slight problem. You compared FA's we signed and how we got deals on them compared to other teams, however, for teams, that was their large FA acquistion, we have a bunch of them. I dont know if we will ride out these cap hits, though I have faith we will.

But, if other teams can do well with their own players and whatnot, why cant we as well? New England, San Diego, Philly are prime examples. I hope from this offseason onwards we get low profile players to do well. We already started this trend on defense.

[ojuice00]

Originally posted by inmate running the asylum

Actually I am looking long term, but I wanted to show you guys that since Gibbs took over in 2004, the FO seems to be making a lot better decisions as far as signing free agents -- exception being Brunell.

Admittedly we aren't doing as well as the Buzzards from a cap standpoint, but then neither are most of the other teams.

I wouldn't say our cap is a mess quite yet and we may yet squeeze out of a problem with the big TV contracts ballooning the cap up in 2006. A lot depends on how we handle Samuels contract. If we lose Smoot I don't think it will be a disaster. I think someone like Walt Harris could hold the fort down or maybe we can sign Ken Lucas.

As for draft picks, Gibbs didn't come back for the long haul. He came back to turn this franchise around quickly, and you don't do that by building through the draft too much. When Gibbs was here last time, Beathard usually traded away our high draft picks, so you can expect the same from Gibbs.

This team really doesn't have that many holes to plug to turn this team into a playoff contender. Its not an old team. I mean if we can do to the offense this year, what Williams did with the defense, we're on our way.

If the worse team in football last year -- 2-14 San Diego -- can turn it around in one season and make the playoffs, why can't we this coming year? Look at our defense. We've got more going for us right now, then the Chargers had at the end of last season.

My views exactly

[Walking Deadman]

Overall, many pickups (especially D) were better than last year (2003) let's just see how 2005 goes, if Barrow comes back, if we resign Smoot and if our record improves.

[tex]

Pretty much agree with inmate’s assessments.

No doubt that Brunell played much worse then some expected. The payoff may be whatever mentoring he has afforded to PR. Still, it's better to have Brunell coming off bench than a Mathews or a Waurfal.

Hoping here for more linemen from this years draft.

OT: don’t know if Jansen will come back strong or if Samuels will even be on the roster.

OC: Ramer’s gas tank has to be getting low.

DE: Haven’t had a threat here for so long.

DT: A player with Daryl Gardener type ability would make this defense almost unbeatable

[Art]

It's impossible to be a fan of this team and feel Cerrato and Snyder haven't done a very nice job helping out the coaching staff with the acquisition of capable players not only this year but in recent years. Sadly, people look for a simple rationale as to why things don't work even as the players brought in largely do work and the answer is as simple as it is difficult to understand.

Time.

Do NOTHING this offseason and we'll win 4 more games next year. More if Ramsey works out. Let this team grow together. For the most part, the pieces are there to be a highly competitive team. There aren't any obvious gaping holes on the roster. Yes, you would like a legitimate defensive end capable of generating pressure, but you don't HAVE to have that to be a great defense.

Yes, you'd like to solidify the center on the offensive line, but that's not quite as critical with Jansen returning and strengthening the edges. What this team needs is TIME and clarity within the direction the staff wishes.

Give this team that and everything will be fine.