Gay marriage question

[HeavyHitta31]

Listen, I know you flaming northern liberals are pissed that Bush won the election and the Republican party controls every aspect of our government, but that doesnt mean its fixed. :doh:

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Predicto

I return, AGAIN, to my question that you have deftly not answered in the least.

If a person was born in, say, China in the fifteenth century, and lived and died there, while living a good life as best they could, but never having had any contact with the Christian faith or the Bible, nor any other opportunity to reject the word of God...

is that virtuous, humble, honest individual now burning in damnation for all eternity?

Ok, I'll try again... Look at my sig pic. Ever seen a guy like that at a football game behind the goalposts? Ever wonder what John 3:16 says?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

May I drop down a few verses in that same chapter to another verse that may clarify it for you?

Verse 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Now, for the record, these are not my words. I'm only quoting what the Bible says. If you have a problem with it then your problem is with the author. But from reading the two verses at face value, I think we can conclude a few things:

1. God loves the sinful world. (v. 16)

2. God gave His Son to die for that sinful world. (How many of us would give our only child to die for every human in this world?) (v. 16)

3. If you believe in God's gift, His Son, then you will have everlasting life. If you don't, you won't. (v. 16)

4. Any part of the human race ("the world") that doesn't believe in the Son (i.e. Jesus), "shall not see life," but instead shall be under the wrath of God (i.e. present condemnation and a future abode in Hell). (v. 36)

Does that answer your question? Seems pretty clear from what I read. Based upon these two verses where is the figurative person you described today? You tell me.

[Akhhorus]

Originally posted by HeavyHitta31

Listen, I know you flaming northern liberals are pissed that Bush won the election and the Republican party controls every aspect of our government, but that doesnt mean its fixed. :doh:

Northern Liberal? I'm a Southern Conservative, and both parties are infected with money. You cannot deny that.

[Ancalagon the Black]

2. God gave His Son to die for that sinful world. (How many of us would give our only child to die for every human in this world?) (v. 16)

Are you telling me that this is so extraordinary? Heck, I've heard tales of people giving their children for the sake of only a few individuals. If you could save the entire world from perishing (say by nuclear war), and the price was your only child's death, wouldn't you pay that price?

Also (and this is a serious question), since God is omniscient, wouldn't he know that Jesus would be resurrected and be back on Earth in a couple of days? So wouldn't the sacrifice be only temporary?

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by HeavyHitta31

Listen, I know you flaming northern liberals are pissed that Bush won the election and the Republican party controls every aspect of our government, but that doesnt mean its fixed. :doh:

???

Are you in the right thread with this one? John Kerry is richer and more elitist than Bush, if anything.

[luckydevil]

John Kerry is richer and more elitist than Bush, if anything.

debatable( not in terms of wealth...rather elitism), but Kerry does indeed belong to an elite class of people.*

*In fact, it wouldn't surprise may if the families run into the same people. For god sakes, George the elder is a classic Rockefeller republican from the northeast.

[HeavyHitta31]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Are you telling me that this is so extraordinary? Heck, I've heard tales of people giving their children for the sake of only a few individuals. If you could save the entire world from perishing (say by nuclear war), and the price was your only child's death, wouldn't you pay that price?

Also (and this is a serious question), since God is omniscient, wouldn't he know that Jesus would be resurrected and be back on Earth in a couple of days? So wouldn't the sacrifice be only temporary?

Trust me, you dont have the balls to let your child die for the sake of anything, almost no one does. Its easy to say you would, fact is, you wouldnt.

And its even more than that, its the fact that by him dying, he took the wieght of all mankinds sins upon him, a pain that none of us can possibly imagine.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Trust me, you dont have the balls to let your child die for the sake of anything, almost no one does. Its easy to say you would, fact is, you wouldnt.

I said nothing about myself; I asked a question. How about the Aztecs who sacrificed their sons and daughters to appease the gods and prevent divine wrath from falling on their cities? How about men and women who send their sons to war knowing that they could well die, but believing in freedom and honor and duty?

And you never responded to the latter half of my post.

[Akhhorus]

Originally posted by luckydevil

debatable( not in terms of wealth...rather elitism), but Kerry does indeed belong to an elite class of people.*

*In fact, it wouldn't surprise may if the families run into the same people. For god sakes, George the elder is a classic Rockefeller republican from the northeast.

You just have to look at the Presidents of the last 100 years. The only non-elites were: Coolridge, Truman, LBJ, Nixon, Carter and Clinton.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Are you telling me that this is so extraordinary? Heck, I've heard tales of people giving their children for the sake of only a few individuals. If you could save the entire world from perishing (say by nuclear war), and the price was your only child's death, wouldn't you pay that price?

God saw Christ's sacrifice as the payment for the sins of all mankind. The Bible teaches that he actually became sin for us. Consider the magnitude of that. The sins of every human that has ever lived or will ever live. No human that you know or have ever heard of has paid that price.

Also (and this is a serious question), since God is omniscient, wouldn't he know that Jesus would be resurrected and be back on Earth in a couple of days? So wouldn't the sacrifice be only temporary?

It's a valid question. The Bible teaches that "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23; That is eternal death in hell.) If One was to take on the sins of all men, then He would have to pay that same price--eternal death. Acts 2:27 tells us that Jesus actually went to hell after He died on the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. That was accomplished in three days. The price was paid. Man could now be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

I said nothing about myself; I asked a question. How about the Aztecs who sacrificed their sons and daughters to appease the gods and prevent divine wrath from falling on their cities? How about men and women who send their sons to war knowing that they could well die, but believing in freedom and honor and duty?

And you never responded to the latter half of my post.

You bring up good points, every religion/mythology has stories of sacrafice, virgin births, gods mixing with humans etc...

The bible stories are nothing new, just a different spin on similar stuff.

The Book of the Dead, from Egypt, written thousands of years before the old testament, contains what is strangely similar to the 10 commandments...

Did the christian God read their book and decide that it was pretty good?

[twa]

Originally posted by codeorama

You bring up good points, every religion/mythology has stories of sacrafice, virgin births, gods mixing with humans etc...

The bible stories are nothing new, just a different spin on similar stuff.

The Book of the Dead, from Egypt, written thousands of years before the old testament, contains what is strangely similar to the 10 commandments...

Did the christian God read their book and decide that it was pretty good?

You think it might be the same God instead? People choose to worship God in thier own manner ,right or wrong? I do not belive the book of the dead predates the writings of Moses.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by twa

You think it might be the same God instead? People choose to worship God in thier own manner ,right or wrong? I do not belive the book of the dead predates the writings of Moses.

I've read that they predated Moses, but it's a moot point anyway because the egyptians were clearly not christian.

"1. Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947 the oldest

complete copy of the Hebrew OT was dated around 1000 A.D. We also

had large portions of the OT that were written around 900 A.D."

http://www.trustbible.com/testament.htm

It also gives dates for the Dead Sea Scrolls which still do not go back as far as the Dead Sea Scrolls which date to 1600 BC.

[twa]

God is God to the christans ,Jews and the Muslims. Same God , Egypt also worshiped the same God at times .My point is... Imo there is only ONE..,The God that people have worshiped in many different ways thru out time. What that way is we have to choose. ....Of course my way is the RIGHT way:D

[COLES80GURL]

:helmet: I don't think children seeing gays in public will make them chose a homosexual lifestyle..that is the lamest excuse I have ever heard.

Who are we to say two people can't be married or in love, or datE, or have a sexual relationship......answer these questions..

#1. Does it in any way hurt you physically?

#2 Do you loose sleep over it?

#3 Has it effected your life at all?

If you answered yes to any of the questions you need help. What people do in the privacy of their own home, and if it is what they want to do then what does it matter? I personally would never be with a woman, it is against what I believe in, but I will not hold it against someone if that is what they chose to do. I have many homosexual friends and what they do is their business.

I don't think that it is our job as a society to judge people and tell them what they can and can't do with their life. :helmet:

[codeorama]

Originally posted by twa

God is God to the christans ,Jews and the Muslims. Same God , Egypt also worshiped the same God at times .My point is... Imo there is only ONE..,The God that people have worshiped in many different ways thru out time. What that way is we have to choose. ....Of course my way is the RIGHT way:D

:laugh:

I agree with you, my interepretation of "god" is probably different, but I think there is only one.

But Egypt had many gods for the most part and many people feel that the god of the old testament is different than the god of the new etc...

I pretty much believe that it's all the same, regardless of religion, it's just that different people have different interpretations, which is ok IMO.

[Predicto]

Originally posted by skinsfan51

Now, for the record, these are not my words. I'm only quoting what the Bible says. If you have a problem with it then your problem is with the author. But from reading the two verses at face value, I think we can conclude a few things:

1. God loves the sinful world. (v. 16)

2. God gave His Son to die for that sinful world. (How many of us would give our only child to die for every human in this world?) (v. 16)

3. If you believe in God's gift, His Son, then you will have everlasting life. If you don't, you won't. (v. 16)

4. Any part of the human race ("the world") that doesn't believe in the Son (i.e. Jesus), "shall not see life," but instead shall be under the wrath of God (i.e. present condemnation and a future abode in Hell). (v. 36)

Does that answer your question? Seems pretty clear from what I read. Based upon these two verses where is the figurative person you described today? You tell me.

Ok. Just wanted to confirm it. The hypothetical good moral honest sixteenth century Chinese person is burning in hell for all eternity because he was too unlucky to have ever had a single solitary chance to learn about, much less believe in, Jesus as his saviour.

That's just Bull. No loving omnicient and omnipotent God would be so cruel and unfair as to screw someone over like that. The whole house of cards has collapsed.

[twa]

316 posts and I can only recall 1 that attempted to provide a reason that gay marriage should be granted. Marriage thru the ages has been to preserve and promote the future generations and provide a base for society[a basic building block] What NEED is there for marriage other than that?:2cents:

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Predicto

Ok. Just wanted to confirm it. The hypothetical good moral honest sixteenth century Chinese person is burning in hell for all eternity because he was too unlucky to have ever had a single solitary chance to learn about, much less believe in, Jesus as his saviour.

That's just Bull. No loving omnicient and omnipotent God would be so cruel and unfair as to screw someone over like that. The whole house of cards has collapsed.

So the Owner of the universe has no say over how his universe is run? He can't make the rules and expect His living creation to abide by them? Do you have children? Are they allowed to live under your roof any way they want to without consequence?

Let's say that I'm your landlord. You're a nice guy. You don't mess up my house, you don't let animals or unruly kids ruin it, and you basically abide by all the rules--except one. You never pay your rent. When I question you about it you say, "Well, I'd love to pay my rent, but I've not been lucky enough to make that much money."

What should I do the you, the outstandingly nice guy who can't pay his rent?

[SkinsNumberOne]

Originally posted by Stu

I appreciate the discussion as well and prefer the rational discourse vice senseless namecalling which is never productive. To paraphrase an earlier post but in a different context "I hope we, as a society, do the same" in all our differences.

In my book, you are still Catholic and hope you find your way back home. I did and the door is always open.

I appreciate the sentiment, and I know it's something my family fervently hopes will happen. Who knows?

In Catholic school in 8th grade, when the priest was in our class during our preparation for Confirmation, he asked the class, "who is most likely to become a priest when he grows up?" Everyone said me. I guess time will tell, but hopes of their prophecy being realized seem to be getting dimmer (just because I am getting older).

Originally posted by Stu

Take another look at what Jesus is saying. Divorce itself was regulated in the Old Testament yet Jesus tells us that it was not the original intent of God. Furthermore, it talks of how God intended one man for one woman and how they would become one flesh. From a Biblical standpoint, I would say that counters both polygamy and homosexuality.

That's fine, but again, I think it's a little confusing that God would regulate something which he doesn't condone.

Originally posted by Stu

Then their certainly can be other absolute morals. Now we just have to determine what they are as we both agree.

Well, I have to add the caveat that we will never know that we've correctly found the absolute morals. It's the danger of "knowing" or thinking that you know. Something that history teaches us over, and over again, and somehow it still hasn't quite taken. More's the pity.

My point is, again, while they may exist, the one thing we do know is that we're capable of making mistakes. So we must always be ready to change and adapt as we learn.

[dchogs]

Originally posted by skinsfan51

So the Owner of the universe has no say over how his universe is run? He can't make the rules and expect His living creation to abide by them? Do you have children? Are they allowed to live under your roof any way they want to without consequence?

Let's say that I'm your landlord. You're a nice guy. You don't mess up my house, you don't let animals or unruly kids ruin it, and you basically abide by all the rules--except one. You never pay your rent. When I question you about it you say, "Well, I'd love to pay my rent, but I've not been lucky enough to make that much money."

What should I do the you, the outstandingly nice guy who can't pay his rent?

problem is that kids know their parents rules. if a parent punishes a kid for a rule that was never established, it is an unfair practice. similarly, any tenet knows that he/she must pay rent. if you try to evict me for something not established in the lease agreement, I'd see you in court.

so it follows that predicto's protagonist should need to know the rules before he is punished. if he has never been exposed to god or christianity in any way shape or form, how can god punish him for not believing?

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by SkinsNumberOne

Originally posted by Stu

Take another look at what Jesus is saying. Divorce itself was regulated in the Old Testament yet Jesus tells us that it was not the original intent of God.

That's fine, but again, I think it's a little confusing that God would regulate something which he doesn't condone.

Sorry to jump in this somewhat private discussion, but just to clarify what Stu said about divorce not being the original intent of God's creation, I think he is referencing what Jesus said in Matthew 19:8: "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so."

God hates divorce. Look at Malachi 2:15b-16a: "Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away." "Putting away" is another term for divorce. So why did He regulate it? As Jesus said, "because of the hardness of [our] hearts." He knows that man will often choose his own will over the will of God, and mess up his life. But God gave him the free will to make those choices. So he regulates it even though it was never meant to be that way. I hope that helps.

[Henry]

Originally posted by skinsfan51

So the Owner of the universe has no say over how his universe is run? He can't make the rules and expect His living creation to abide by them? Do you have children? Are they allowed to live under your roof any way they want to without consequence?

Let's say that I'm your landlord. You're a nice guy. You don't mess up my house, you don't let animals or unruly kids ruin it, and you basically abide by all the rules--except one. You never pay your rent. When I question you about it you say, "Well, I'd love to pay my rent, but I've not been lucky enough to make that much money."

What should I do the you, the outstandingly nice guy who can't pay his rent?

I think a more appropriate example would be if the guy said "Rent? You never told me you charged rent. In fact, I didn't even know what rent was, and I've already spent my money this month because noone told me. If I had only known I would have payed"

Would you give him a chance to pay the rent the next month or kick him out?

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by dchogs

problem is that kids know their parents rules. if a parent punishes a kid for a rule that was never established, it is an unfair practice. similarly, any tenet knows that he/she must pay rent. if you try to evict me for something not established in the lease agreement, I'd see you in court.

so it follows that predicto's protagonist should need to know the rules before he is punished. if he has never been exposed to god or christianity in any way shape or form, how can god punish him for not believing?

Your question is good and I expected someone to bring that up. But I submit unto you that the rules were written in the "agreement" for all mankind, and still are.

God put in every man a conscience and reason to know how to find the true God. When a man seeks God, as he perceives God to be, God will honor that man and show him the right path. Look at what the Apostle Paul said in Romans chapter 2: " [God] will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath."

The King James verbiage may seem a little difficult to understand, but he's basically saying that those that seek glory and honor and immortality, they will find eternal life. God will make sure of it. Those who don't seek it will find the wrath of God at the end, and they will no one to blame but themselves.

How will God get that man the true way to follow Him? I don't know. Maybe through a missionary. Maybe through his ancestry (his forefathers are all from Noah, just like we are, and therefore followed the true God at one time. Is it God's fault that his forefathers didn't relay the truth to him?).

Another means that God uses to reach the "unreached" is through His creation. I know this is long, but follow me here:

Paul again states, "...that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1)

What Paul is saying is that God put in every man the ability to know who He is (if He didn't then your points would be completely valid). Furthermore, Paul tells us that the "invisible things" (i.e. the spirit world) are "seen" by looking at the things which are made (i.e. the natural world). So, "they are without excuse" when it comes to finding the true God.

God is not unjust, nor is He a bad accountant. He keeps good records and no one has ever gone to hell because they did everything right and slipped through the cracks. If an man or woman goes to hell they deserved to go there. We all deserve to go there, BTW. Because we have broken God's rules we will be "evicted" (to continue my rental illustration above) when we die. But Jesus paid our "rent," if you will; our debt. All we have to do is acknowledge that, repent of our sins in not paying the "rent," and follow Him. His bank account never runs out, and everyone is welcome.

We live in God's "house" (universe). We breath His air, live on his soil and use His resources. He can make the rules and hold us to them. That's His right.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Henry

I think a more appropriate example would be if the guy said "Rent? You never told me you charged rent. In fact, I didn't even know what rent was, and I've already spent my money this month because noone told me. If I had only known I would have payed"

Would you give him a chance to pay the rent the next month or kick him out?

To answer your question, Henry, I would give him a chance to pay, and that is called mercy. But what if he has no means to pay it? Then what would you do as the landlord?

When a man seeks the true way to God, he finds out pretty quick that he has an enormous sin debt. As a matter of fact, it's so large that he can't pay it back. It's totally impossible. His only option is to cast himself at the feet of the Heavenly Landlord and beg for mercy. About that time a guy named "Mr. Law" steps up to the Landlord and says, "Do not show mercy. He owes it and he MUST pay it. If he cannot then he must die." The man trembles, and rightly so, for Mr. Law is correct, even though he is very, very harsh. The debt is real and it is owed.

Just when all hope seems to be lost, in steps a Prince who's fortune is inestimable. He looks at the Landlord and asks if He may have a word with Him. Mr. Law joins in, too, so he can throw in his two cents. He MUST have his way, you know. The Prince then asks if the man has to pay the debt or if it can be paid FOR him? The Landlord says that all he cares about is getting the debt paid. It doesn't matter WHO pays it.

So the Prince turns to the man and says, "How much money do you have?" The man replies, "Just two pennies." The Prince looks at him with great love and pity and says, "Give them to me and I'll pay your debt completely and give you access to all the riches in my kingdom."

Question: What should the man do? What would you do if you were the man? Wanna guess how most people in this world answer that Prince?