Early debate: Might the unthinkable happen.

[Art]

For the most part all of us have recognized the general lack of attention paid the defensive line by the Redskins in the NFL draft. A couple of years ago I so stubbornly pined for a defensive lineman, I would have avoided the trade for Coles simply to assure we got one. Last year, though the need was there despite the obvious personnel improvements all but the most foolish saw, I was willing to bypass the spot for a legitimate playmaking force like Winslow or Taylor.

I understood another offseason of not drafting a young player on the defensive line because of the potential greatness you got out of Winslow (my pick) or Taylor. Here we are, now, nearing the end of the season and something stands out pretty clearly.

Scheme matters. Coaching matters. And the defensive line we all had some level of concern over actually appears to be among the better lines in football based on overall production. Still, you can see a clear lack of a true edge rusher. Most of us kind of thought not going defensive line last year meant we had to go defensive line this year.

That edge rusher is still a requirement.

However, given the weakness on offense and apparent needs at center and tight end and perhaps No. 2 receiver, if not QB and left guard (jury is still out), might we not now be forced to consider another offseason where we bypass the defensive line need to improve somewhere on offense?

Jansen's return will make us better, obviously, as an entire unit next year. We have some depth and hope on the line, but, Raymer's play has hurt us, and the type of offense we run would fit nicely with a mildly dangerous tight end (Cooley is a good H-Back).

I have long said I don't even start to pay attention to the draft until after the Super Bowl, but, at this point, I'm really wondering what direction is best. Where last offseason I thought adding Winslow to the offense would complete the unit, you can now see areas you either MUST upgrade or may require an upgrade.

Meanwhile, on defense, OTHER than a pass rushing end, you really don't have any weakness. You have what is probably the best secondary in the league. You have among the best backers in football when Arrington is in there. You have, currently, the best performing defensive tackle in football, with a good, deep rotation of solid players along the whole of the line.

Is the weakness we've had on offense enough to force us to focus on going offense in the draft in your view?

[Akhhorus]

simple: Play Clemons at OLB, and Move Lavar to LE. lavar is effective there and his discipline problems would be lessened by his position. I would like to see him bulk up for that, maybe to 265-270. He would still be as fast as 95% of the des in the league and still disruptive.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I can see us drafting o-line in the first round this year.

Depending on where our pick is in the 1st I hope to see us move down and be in position to draft Elton Brown G, from UVA. He would be an improvement over Dockery in my opinion.

Sign a center in the offseason. Having picked up a 2nd rounder with my proposed trade we could then get a speed rusher type.

There are no dominant D-lineman in this draft. However Elton Brown can become a dominant guard.

[Akhhorus]

Originally posted by SkinsHokieFan

I can see us drafting o-line in the first round this year.

Depending on where our pick is in the 1st I hope to see us move down and be in position to draft Elton Brown G, from UVA. He would be an improvement over Dockery in my opinion.

Sign a center in the offseason. Having picked up a 2nd rounder with my proposed trade we could then get a speed rusher type.

There are no dominant D-lineman in this draft. However Elton Brown can become a dominant guard.

I really like Elton Brown too, but Dockery and Thomas are fine as the starting guards. We need a new LT and Center. The first left tackles worth the pick are:

Jammal Brown, 6-5, 310, Oklahoma

Michael Munoz, 6-5, 315, Tennessee

Andrew Whitworth, 6-6, 325, LSU

Alex Barron, 6-6, 315, Florida State

Rob Petitti, 6-6, 330, Pittsburgh

Adam Snyder, 6-6, 320, Oregon

all of these guys will be available in the mid first round. So if LT is where we're going, we're also trading down.

[ntotoro]

I still think we'll go with a DE with our first round pick, then get a Center with a (much) later round pick, unless a truly sick center comes out. I don't know if we'll go with a Center in the first round, though. If we finish poorly, we'll have another top first round pick that will probably be traded down for a DE and Center.

That is, unless, we pick high where we are and just get a FA Center or a late round Center. Other words, I have no idea..

Nick

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by Akhhorus

I really like Elton Brown too, but Dockery and Thomas are fine as the starting guards. We need a new LT and Center. The first left tackles worth the pick are:

Jammal Brown, 6-5, 310, Oklahoma

Michael Munoz, 6-5, 315, Tennessee

Andrew Whitworth, 6-6, 325, LSU

Alex Barron, 6-6, 315, Florida State

Rob Petitti, 6-6, 330, Pittsburgh

Adam Snyder, 6-6, 320, Oregon

I just do not see us drafting a LT. I think one of the guys (Wilson or Molinara) would be plugged in if we were to trade or release Samuels.

If our pick ends up being a top 10 pick (which it still can) we must trade down. Last season we had 2 potentially great players to pick from in Winslow and Taylor that filled needs.

I do not see that this year in the draft. Arguably our biggest need on defense is the pass rushing D-end. There is no great D-end in this draft.

Next it would be on the o-line. Need a center and a LG, because quite honestly Dockery is just not that good. He falls down too much and just gets in Portis' way.

Elton Brown is big, quick, athletic, and has expeirence playing in a solid system that ran the ball a lot this year. He would be a great fit.

If we were to trade down to the 20s from a top 10 pick we could pick up a 2nd rounder. If we trade Samuels we could get a high 2nd low first. If we trade Gardner we could get a 2nd or a 3rd and 5th.

I just do not think we should draft in the top 10, and I do not think we should draft a defensive end in the first round. Brown would have a much more immediate impact

[pr11fan]

Originally posted by Akhhorus

I really like Elton Brown too, but Dockery and Thomas are fine as the starting guards. We need a new LT and Center. The first left tackles worth the pick are:

Jammal Brown, 6-5, 310, Oklahoma

Michael Munoz, 6-5, 315, Tennessee

Andrew Whitworth, 6-6, 325, LSU

Alex Barron, 6-6, 315, Florida State

Rob Petitti, 6-6, 330, Pittsburgh

Adam Snyder, 6-6, 320, Oregon

all of these guys will be available in the mid first round. So if LT is where we're going, we're also trading down.

I disagree on LT, Samuels has ankle problems right now and is still playing solid, and you don't trade solid lt's for rookies. Dockery next to him has been subpar most of the year imo, to be honest I don't have a clue how to go in the first round, we need a center, but I don't see us doing that in the first. We could use Elton Brown or David Baas if we trade down, we could go for Erasmus James or Kiwanuka if we decide on DE, or we could use a receiver to replace Gardner. Honestly, I think I'll have to wait to see what Juniors declare for the drat to make a decision.

[KDawg]

I'm not sure, Art.

I honestly feel we can get a good player at any of the positions you named later in the draft, the exception being Guard, where Elton Brown seems to be our best bet.

Examples?

QB: Timmy Chang (UH) [This debate is going on in another thread at the moment, but I'm still holding firm to my belief that this kid can be a playmaker. Do I want a QB? No. If we had to take one however, he would in fact be my choice.]

TE: Kevin Everett (UM) [big TE with speed and good enough hands to make him a mild threat, could be had in later rounds (2-4) if he declares himself eligible.]

WR: Geoff McArthur (Cal) [6 foot, 200 pounds. Looks to have room to get bigger. Doesn't have bad hands and in my opinion he makes Rodgers look better than he's cracked up to be.]

C: Jed Paulsen (NCState) [Good blocker, good athletic ability, essential in a Joe Gibbs system. Is a bit undersized, however.]

DE: Justin Tuck (ND) [DEFINITELY reminds me of a guy in the mold of a few current DE's. Namely one's out of Syracuse and North Carolina. Quick, but not a huge DE. But it's been proven you don't need a monster back there in order to get tot he QB. Athletic ability seems to be trumping size, as of late.]

Which makes the question: Which position is most in need of a revamp?

Guard.

Randy Thomas is incredible, but I don't like what I've seen from Dockery.

Do we really need to draft anything in the first round other than OLine? Granted, there are prospects in every position that is a question mark for this team that would produce better than any that I have named, however, do we have a need to spend a large sum of money on any of them? (Guys like Pollack, Kiwi, Wilkerson, Edwards, Williams, Miller)

[Dirk Diggler]

It is too early to talk draft, but it's probably my favorite topic on this board during the year and causes without question the best debates.

I think our course of action in the draft will be determined almost certainly by where we are picking. When you look at the way things will probably fall - you see a few QBs (Leinart, Rodgers), then a few WRs (Edwards, Williams), a CB (Rolle) here, and a DT (Travis Johnson) there.

If we are picking in the 8-12 range, I think we will be best served by taking a defensive end. A pass rushing end would complete the defense and you just can't pass up the chance to do that in today's NFL. There are some nice units but it seems like even the very good ones like KC's offense and Pitt's defense are missing a player somewhere. I mean, how many teams have a truly COMPLETE SIDE of the ball? Indy on offense? Baltimore on defense? Is that it? Vikings maybe?

The end who can do this is Wisconsin's Erasmus James. This kid has the potential to come in and make an impact the way Terrell Suggs and Dwight Freeney did. If that's the case, you could possibly be talking about an all-time great defense in DC which we've never had. :notworthy

Not even Gibbs can't justify an interior offensive lineman at that spot. There is no Leonard Davis this year. Only further down at 18-20 could we reasonably take a guard or center like Ben Wilkerson or an OG Elton Brown. We'd have to run the table to make drop that far and I don't see it.

If Gibbs MUST GO wide receiver and scratch that itch, I think Mark Clayton from Oklahoma is the choice. He is silky smooth, has great hands, and reminds me of Chris Chambers - a 5'11" guy who plays 6'2" because he has long arms and can jump through the rafters. The only reason his numbers are down this year is b/c they are running the ball every play with the best freshman back since Herschel Walker.

Still, I'd prefer to stay away from WRs in the first round because of the strike out/bust ratio. Most of these guys are real tempermental and not ready to act like a pro.

[GrimReefa]

Sorry, Art, but I think you should stick by your personal rule on this one.

Waaaaaaay too many variables to be talking about what we're going to do with our pick, especially given what we saw yesterday.

What position are we going to be picking in? Who will be drafting ahead of us and what are their needs? What underclassmen are coming out? What will our FA options be?

Not to mention how well does our offense perform in the last part of the season.

We could concieveably have a record anywhere between 8-8 and 4-12 (although we better beat the damn 'Niners).

If you asked me right now, I'd say our biggest weakness is at Center. But if our receivers get the dropsies again, then that could emerge as the #1 priority. Pass rushing DE is still a concern, although I think a healthy LaVar (as an OLB, double-dog definately NOT a DE) could provide all the pass rush, in this system, that a good DE would normally give.

So to answer your question, if the draft were tommorow I'd want to go after a center - depending on the available talent - but the draft is not tommorow and it's way to early to start talking about it, and have an accurate assessment of our needs for next season, IMO.

[Dirk Diggler]

Again, fellas - it's not always about need, need, need.

Free Safety could hardly have been considered a dire need last season. We had far bigger needs on the defensive line and at tight end. But you just couldn't pass up the chance to take a game changer when Taylor was available. He represneted the best value at the time.

While Center may be our biggest need, it is doubtful that one will represent the best value in Round 1.

Ideally, we wouldn't go into the draft with any particularly crying need and just grab the BPA.

[BayouBrave86]

Whitworth is huge but he is over-rated. He hasn't lived up to expectations this year, I hope he doesn't think he is 1st round talent, because he isn't.

[Akhhorus]

Originally posted by KDawg

I'm not sure, Art.

I honestly feel we can get a good player at any of the positions you named later in the draft, the exception being Guard, where Elton Brown seems to be our best bet.

Examples?

QB: Timmy Chang (UH) [This debate is going on in another thread at the moment, but I'm still holding firm to my belief that this kid can be a playmaker. Do I want a QB? No. If we had to take one however, he would in fact be my choice.]

TE: Kevin Everett (UM) [big TE with speed and good enough hands to make him a mild threat, could be had in later rounds (2-4) if he declares himself eligible.]

WR: Geoff McArthur (Cal) [6 foot, 200 pounds. Looks to have room to get bigger. Doesn't have bad hands and in my opinion he makes Rodgers look better than he's cracked up to be.]

C: Jed Paulsen (NCState) [Good blocker, good athletic ability, essential in a Joe Gibbs system. Is a bit undersized, however.]

DE: Justin Tuck (ND) [DEFINITELY reminds me of a guy in the mold of a few current DE's. Namely one's out of Syracuse and North Carolina. Quick, but not a huge DE. But it's been proven you don't need a monster back there in order to get tot he QB. Athletic ability seems to be trumping size, as of late.]

Which makes the question: Which position is most in need of a revamp?

Guard.

Randy Thomas is incredible, but I don't like what I've seen from Dockery.

Do we really need to draft anything in the first round other than OLine? Granted, there are prospects in every position that is a question mark for this team that would produce better than any that I have named, however, do we have a need to spend a large sum of money on any of them? (Guys like Pollack, Kiwi, Wilkerson, Edwards, Williams, Miller)

im with you on the picks except Chang(not starting that debate again). But Geoff MacArthur just broke his leg, I would make sure he's healthy. But he's going to drop.

I think Dockery has been solid. He's isnt great, but not a f-up. Elton brown might be great, but replacing Samuels should be the priority. If that means Wilson/Molinario replaces him, fine, then we draft DE or WR. If not, then we look at the prospects.

QB: Derek Anderson QB Oregon St. Productive in a pro style system. Big, tall with good legs and a strong arm.

TE: Kevin Everett TE Miami. Another UM TE, but no-one is talking about him at all.

WR: JR Russell WR lousiville. Big(6-3) with speed. Good hands too. Watch Louisville's bowl game if ye doubt me

and

WR: Vincent Jackson and Matt Jones. Jones will probably move to WR in the NFL. Both are huge with good hands and decent speed.

C: Matt Tarullo Syracuse. Huge Center(6-5) with good skills.

DE: Thomas Smith Pittsburgh.

[codeorama]

You don't want to draft Elton Brown, I know him, he's got problems. Family problems, friend problems and self control problems.... Forget about him.

[Ghost of]

Code, if that's true you should make that known to the Skins before draft comes up.

Seriously.

[Akhhorus]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

Code, if that's true you should make that known to the Skins before draft comes up.

Seriously.

I wouldnt worry about that, a friend of mine at South Carolina was drafted once and before the draft everybody associated with him was interviewed about him by the NFL.

[riggins44]

I'm from the school that games are won in the trenches and you need to build solid OL and DL's. In the draft we need to build

depth on the line for both sides.

We need a strong edge rusher.

I like Elton Brown, but trust Code's words.

[pr11fan]

Originally posted by codeorama

You don't want to draft Elton Brown, I know him, he's got problems. Family problems, friend problems and self control problems.... Forget about him.

If true I'd be shocked the guy doesn't strike me as that type and has been a good player for UVA and has stayed out of trouble (publicly) But assuming it is, I say trade down further and take David Baas out of Michigan, maybe would could pick up a couple of second rounders if we move back far enough and fill needs at DE and WR in the second.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

Code, if that's true you should make that known to the Skins before draft comes up.

Seriously.

I can't believe that they don't already know.

He used to play HS football in Newport News, but was forced to Hampton High school because he and some "friends" nearly killed a kid by beating him to a pulp. Of course, there were other incidents leading up to this, but I met him because of school issues, and while I liked him as a person, no way would I invest millions in him. I don't want to say anything more specific because I don't know if that's appropriate, however, the reasons for his transfer were public record, via the newspaper.

What is odd, though, is how you haven't really heard much about it, where as in Iverson's case (also a local badboy) it was everywhere and continues to get brought up. I know, Iverson went to prison, but Brown probably should have. How he didn't is what I'm questioning.

Besides, I'm positive the teams do background checks on players.

[Akhhorus]

Originally posted by codeorama

.

Besides, I'm positive the teams do background checks on players.

There is a whole office that NFL has for this. NFL Security investigates every player eligible to be drafted and, reportedly, keeps tabs on trouble playersin the league.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by codeorama

I can't believe that they don't already know.

He used to play HS football in Newport News, but was forced to Hampton High school because he and some "friends" nearly killed a kid by beating him to a pulp. Of course, there were other incidents leading up to this, but I met him because of school issues, and while I liked him as a person, no way would I invest millions in him. I don't want to say anything more specific because I don't know if that's appropriate, however, the reasons for his transfer were public record, via the newspaper.

What is odd, though, is how you haven't really heard much about it, where as in Iverson's case (also a local badboy) it was everywhere and continues to get brought up. I know, Iverson went to prison, but Brown probably should have. How he didn't is what I'm questioning.

Besides, I'm positive the teams do background checks on players.

Wow I never did realize this. From all I have heard from the media and UVA fans he is a fine individual.

If he has these problems then yeah stay away. But then again maybe he has matured since being at UVA and playing for a task master in Al Groh.

[Beaudry]

We can get by using our current group with a mix of Lavar at DE. For the future, though, we really do need to start addressing this problem. We can't go forever without making an investment here.

I say best available player in a need position, be it DE, OL, TE or QB.

[BD]

Either way, I think we're seeing a line pick, either DE or Center. I think they seem to like Dockery, and I think that with the cap going up, they might actually be able to get a deal done with Chris Samuels.

Forget about silly stuff. I seriously doubt they'll pick a skill position player high unless Ramsey absolutely tanks it over the next four games (very, very doubtful).

BD

[Akhhorus]

Originally posted by BD

Either way, I think we're seeing a line pick, either DE or Center. I think they seem to like Dockery, and I think that with the cap going up, they might actually be able to get a deal done with Chris Samuels.

Forget about silly stuff. I seriously doubt they'll pick a skill position player high unless Ramsey absolutely tanks it over the next four games (very, very doubtful).

BD

I dont we'd draft a center high. We'd trade down. I doubt Samuels will be back next year, he's has the option to invoke that would make his cap charge 11 million next year, if we cut him, we would save 9 million. If he doesnt invoke this, then his cap number is still over 9 million. Not worth it. Trade him and replace him.

[Neophyte]

I am more inclined to wait on these discussions but since it was brought up...

If we are in the top 10 I say trade down if possible. I don't see a talent at a position we are that weak that to warrant that type of pick. Trade down and pick up a 2nd or another 1st the year after.

The first round is traditionally too high to go with a center unless he is all world right out of college which I don't see any of these guys being.

Take a DE in the lower first round. At TE or G in the 2nd (assuming we can pick up a 2nd by trading down in the 1st) and get our C in the 3rd or later.