OT Poll In The Islamic World Shows....

TennesseeCarl · February 27, 2002

...that a majority of folks over there don't believe that Arabs were involved in the Sept. 11th Attack on America. Curiously, if there's one nation over there I would think that would be somewhat supportive of our credibility, it would be Kuwait. (Seems to me that, but for us, Kuwait would be part of Greater Iraq). But more than 80% of Kuwaitis responding feel that we're off base and that we're picking on Arabs. No matter what we do over in that part of the world, it seems we're not going to accrue much good will. (Of course, other than saving Kuwait's hash, I'm not sure of what we've done over there to earn any good will, either.)

NavyDave · February 27, 2002

Drill for our own oil until we create a new energy source then let those ungrateful b@stards fall under Iraqi rule. I was over there and wondered aloud how people should be grateful we stepped in and told the spineless Brits who had sh!t to say over the dinner table how if we took out Saddam and family it would be greater Iran they would be dealing with to get those oil deals and back in the early 90's they were religious exremist to th nth power that saudi and Iraq looked liberal. (Actually they are considering how hypocritical they are when it comes to things like sex and alcohol)

bulldog · February 27, 2002

In yesterday's WP, there was an article about how Americans perceive our 'closest ally' in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia. More Americans thought the Saudis were responsible for world terrorism and anti-American feeling than Iraq, North Korea and Syria. I think EVERYONE around the world is patterned by the media. The press in the Arab states never covers violence initiated by the PLO or by proxy terrorists operating in Europe, Africa or the US. As such all Arabs see is Israelis kill Palestinians and rumble in tanks to quell what to Arabs seem like legitimate protests on Palestinian land. The real stumbling block in the Middle East is that hardliners on the Israeli right and in the PLO believe vindicating themselves and their positions by a 100% victory on their own terms is more important than the lives of their children. Sad but true. [ February 27, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: bulldog ]

Riggo-toni · February 27, 2002

Most of the dictators in the Arab world have horribly mismanaged their countries economies, educational and other government institutions. Corruption is rampant on a scale that would make even those of us living up here in Sporano country (NJ) cringe. Regimes try to cover for their own failures by blaming things on Zionist or American plots. Rulers in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, who are supposed to be our allies, continually walk a fine line between placating the US behind closed doors, while allowing all sorts of vitriol to spew forth from their state controlled media. It's not just scenes of Palestinian struggles. (The truth is, the second most hated ethnic group among the Arab countries are the Palestinians.) It's lies like blaming the Mossad for Sept 11, claiming that the Israelis are planning to poison the water supply, etc. etc. Rulers don't want to be viewed as cosy with the US by their subjects, because they are afraid it will provide fodder for Fundamentalists who are bent on overthrowing them. This is particularly the case in Saudi Arabia where the greatest concentration of followers of the extremist Wahhabi sect live. I was living in Europe about ten years ago, and had to listen to European teachers talk about things like the Marshall Plan being a plot by the US to establish its economic supremacy over Europeans. Call me an extremist, but personally I'd rather see the US withdraw from its commitments to be the world's policemen. Let the Europeans, Saudis, Kuwaitis and South Koreans pay for their own defense. No country has done more than us to squeeze concessions out of the Israelis, and yet we are blamed for everything that goes on there. We send our Marines to Beirut to stop the slaughter of Shiite muslims by the Maronite Christians, and they repay us with a truck bomb. We try to establish order and feed the Somalis, and they cheer when our boys are dragged around the street. Oil reserves in the Caspian are estimated to be greater than those in the Gulf. Let's do everything we can to help the Russians develop their oil fields. Besides, it's not like the Arabs can afford to stop selling us the stuff. After we finish wiping out those who attacked us, let's withdraw from the region. Let's formally announce we are washing our hands of the Middle East. Let's stop sending the billions of dollars every year to Israel and Egypt. Let them hang themselves. The Swiss never try to protect anyone (other than the pretentious displays w/ Pope). They take no positions on any issues. And nobody hates them (Except me, because I had a Swiss girlfriend for 3 years who drove me nuts, but that's another story...). Nobody bombs their embassies or planes. It'll never happen, but I wish we could become the world's biggest Switzerland. (Yes, I'm a libertarian.)

bulldog · February 27, 2002

I am sure you wouldn't like being in the reserves until you are 66 years old like the Swiss are <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> It is unrealistic to think that with the large populations of Arab-Americans and Jewish-Americans now in the US that the Government could ever disengage from the Middle East even if it wanted to do so. There are simply too many groups with a dedicated interest in the outcomes there. A few weeks ago, Colonel David Hackworth said the US's greatest blunder in the past 25 years since the oil shocks and the end of the Vietnam War was in not developing alternative sources of energy. On that point I can agree with him. I also agree with you that the Caspian Region has vast potential for growth in the future. The problem is there are many political and econonmic rivalries in that region that while not as white hot as those in the Middle East are there and have to be dealt with nonetheless. You have countries such as Russia, Iran, Turkey and the newly independent states of Kazahkstan, Azerbaijan and all their histories to contend with. The battle between Armenians and Azerbaijanis. The rivarly between the Russians and Iran. Between the Russians and Turks. Central Asia is no panacea.

Kilmer17 · February 27, 2002

Except we need to protect our oil interests. Our leaders cant seem to agree on a way to provide for ourselves, so until they do we are dependant on foreign oil. The only solution to this will be a complete solution. IE, one of the sides will have to lose completely.

Darth Tater · February 27, 2002

My tag line says what I feel about this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Riggo-toni · February 27, 2002

BD, I admitted it was wishful thinking on my part <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> Nor am I disputing that developing alternative energy sources is in our best interests. While I certainly don't want us to get embroiled in feuds in places like Nagorno-Karabakh or Ossetia, I think simply letting our oil companies throw in some of their expertise, while gingerly encouraging all the former Soviet Republics to establish a better rule of law (particularly involving property rights) might get us the oil we need w/o stirring up the same kind of resentment as in the Middle East. Actually, we probably don't have to do anything - Russia is finally beginning to get its act together and boosting up production (thank Putin and his cronies for the wonderful drop in prices we're experiencing). As mismanaged as so many of the Middle East countries are, Russia may manage to help bankrupt them all in another decade or so. (OK, more wishful thinking on my part). (And no, I wouldn't want to be in the reserves til I'm 66. I admit it, I'm a wimp...)

Dr. D · February 27, 2002

The current state of the middle east is very nicely summed up in the historical account by Paul Johnson in "modern times" just remember the mullahs were Nazi collaborators during WW2....... the dis-information has never ceased being broadcast ever since.

Kefka · February 27, 2002

Well when you have puppet leaders of the United "American" Nations do you expect its people to be happy? Divide and conquer huh... just know that when your making foreign poclies w/ the mideast nations its only w/ the leaders who are scared of their american/jewish masters.

Zen-like Todd · February 27, 2002

Talk about assinine drivel. You'd expect some people to take an objective look at the situation after awhile. I guess that's way too much to hope for. Edit.. And yes, I am talking about Kefka's post. [ February 27, 2002, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: TheChosenOne ]

Kefka · February 27, 2002

Listen TCO, I'm just trying to sum up the problem for you guys. Don't expect the Muslims to be overjoyed with the US, holding hands and skipping around when their muslims brothers, sisters and children are being killed in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechan, Bosnia. And if you expect so your being delusional. I'm trying to be as 'objective' as possible, but thats the truth of the matter. And so long as there doesn't exist a dialog of justice and truth, it will continue to be so.

Zen-like Todd · February 27, 2002

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Listen TCO, I'm just trying to sum up the problem for you guys.<hr /></blockquote>Propaganda and insidious seed planting doesnt qualify as "summing up the problem" <blockquote>quote:<hr />Don't expect the Muslims to be overjoyed with the US, holding hands and skipping around when their muslims brothers, sisters and children are being killed in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechan, Bosnia. <hr /></blockquote>Kinda funny isnt it? Killed in Iraq? By who? Who is being killed in Afghanistan, and why? Why is there violence in Israel? Why in Chechnya? The "problem", as you state it is a complete failure of the modern Muslim world to be accountable for their actions. They instead turn to scapegoats (What the Arab world is doing now to Jews is equivalent to what happened 60 years ago in Germany... scapegoating a small population that is irrelevant to the core problem at hand in a pathetic attempt to avoid facing their real problems). They try to drag people down into tit-for tat violence and then argue for moral equivalence. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> And if you expect so your being delusional. I'm trying to be as 'objective' as possible, but thats the truth of the matter. And so long as there doesn't exist a dialog of justice and truth, it will continue to be so.<hr /></blockquote>You know, if you make up your own perepective, anything seems reasonable. Most people live in the real world, however.

Dr. D · February 27, 2002

violence and death are lamentable conditions of humanity regardless of the manner in their "imposition" truth is immutable and needs no "interpretation"

Kefka · February 27, 2002

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Kinda funny isnt it? Killed in Iraq? By who? Who is being killed in Afghanistan, and why? Why is there violence in Israel? Why in Chechnya? The "problem", as you state it is a complete failure of the modern Muslim world to be accountable for their actions. They instead turn to scapegoats (What the Arab world is doing now to Jews is equivalent to what happened 60 years ago in Germany... scapegoating a small population that is irrelevant to the core problem at hand in a pathetic attempt to avoid facing their real problems). They try to drag people down into tit-for tat violence and then argue for moral equivalence. <hr /></blockquote>Its not funny at all TCO. Since you seemed to avoid Palestine I'll start with it first. You give the goods (weapons, money, your veto-power in the UN) to basically oppress, kill, bulldoze homes, and bully the Palestinian people. Yet when they fight back they are terrorists. If you do some research, the Israelis use to bomb building and such. The most famous during British Mandate in the King David Hotel. Iraq, Sadaam (if you recall was put into power by a coalition which included the US), is just insane. Your sanctions and bombings have left the country paralized. The number of our children killed in Iraq as a result of your lovely sanctions is almost 12 times that of the WTC. Afghanistan the number of innocent civilians killed there is already twice the number in the WTC. Oh and before you say it, I'm not "justifying the attack" on the WTC, just to show you the severity in damage done. You didn't mention Bosnia, where Muslims were literally masacred just for being Muslims. In Chechnya a group of Muslims fighting for their freedom to practice their religion, and they're labeled terrorits. Reports have it that the US may join and help the Russian( who are getting their arse kicked btw). How ever you may see it, the truth of the matter is lives are being taken, homes are being destroyed, the Muslims should just suck it up. Because its our own fault. Right? Its just happens all on its own. If you call not complying with the US and being happy and overjoyed about it scapegoating than you are delusional TCO. The poll shows that there are people who don't like what the US is doing in the region and that they don't agree with their policies. At least the Muslims in the region are saying something about the situaion in Palestine cause the "Muslim Leaders" in the area aren't doing sh*t about it. I do live in the real world, and its not pretty. [ February 27, 2002, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

Kefka · February 27, 2002

Sigh...

Zen-like Todd · February 27, 2002

You surely must be joking. Because if you are not, you are seriously misinformed, or have a mental block of some sort. Oppress, kill, bully, and bulldoze. Literally all violence in that region was initiated by a party other than Israel. Going all the way back to the formation of the state. Today's situation is just the continuation of a ***** and whine fest that occurred when it turned out that the regional Arab powers were incapable of destroying a fledging little democracy. When they were handily defeated, land was absorbed in the process, mostly for the creation of a buffer zone. Apparently, this has never happened in the history of the world (sarcasm, see all current national borders for reference). After trying a few more times without success, the muslim community has resorted to terrorism. Note that the level of violence has spiked DRAMATICALLY in the last several years, as an intifada has been declared. Like I said, it's a paper-thin attempt to gain moral equivalence. You send suicide bombers into buses and city shopping malls. Of course these suicide bombers are included in the death toll of the Palestinians. The Israeli army is obligated to defend its populace, and is forced to raze buildings and enter settlements. This is not something they want to do. This is what amazes me. Some people seem to think the Israelis WANT do to this. You must realize that they are by far the most reluctant opponent you will ever find. However, the matters of the last century, and indeed beyond that, have ingrained a steely resolve into the people of that State. What is for the Muslim world a regional emabarassment being used as a scapegoat so that the nations don't have to account for their horrible inability to manage their own region, is the survival of a race to the State of Israel. The terrorist bombings are a transparent attempt to drag Israel into a spate of violence, and consequently an attempt to use the interchange to claim moral equivalence for and exchange of violence which is light years from moral equivalence. It's a red herring. As far as support by the U.S., can you really be surprised that they are supporting the only real secular democracy in the region, populated by an inordinately oppressed group? Claim oppression for the Palestinians all you want, but their poor situation is a factor of horrible leadership and lack of economic and material assistance from the surrounding Arab nations. Chechnya.... Al Qaeda... nuff said. Afghanistan, you must be joking. The Afghanis dont even consider themselves to be Arab. All of the Arabs in that country were terrorist operators from remote countries such as Saudi Arabia. So, I fail to see where these innocents are coming from. The Afghanis overwhelmingly support the presence of U.S. and International troops in Afghanistan. They were invaded, and had to be removed. The idea that collateral damage is somehow morally wrong in a movement fully supported by the populace of that country is ridiculous. Again, however, this is all just a diversion. None of these events have anything to do with the real problem. Horrible political and economic development in the Muslim world has led to poverty, and restriction of freedoms. This has bred religious fundamentalism (the "oppressed" and poor are the easiest converts... see jail for an example). The Muslim world has corroded from within, and until they take a positive outlook and try to solve their problems instead of creating diversions to blame things on, they will continue to have these problems.

Kefka · February 27, 2002

You need to understand that a Muslim is a brother of Muslim no matter what ethic origin, country of birth, race, skin color or language. So when I see pictures of my Palestinian brothers fighting for their freedom, it does hurt my heart. You might not give a damn, but I do. "Literally all violence in that region was initiated by a party other than Israel. " Your problem is your not doing your homework TCO. The problem starts well before the "Intifada". Where the secular government appointed by the help of the Bristish/US/European Nations tried to drive out the Israelis. The root of the problem starts after WWII when the European nations don't want to deal with the Jewish people. They say hey lets go into a Muslim land, take it, and give it to the Israeli people. Their own "promised land". How nice of them. So now the Muslims, note its always Muslims, "turn to terrorism" to try to get back their land which they had. "Israeli army is obligated to defend its populace, and is forced to raze buildings and enter settlements. " Poor Israel, they have to go kill some kids throwing stones at armed guards, they have to go bomb and bulldoze settlements which have nothing to do with "terrorist" bombings. Againt you don't do your homework, go read the history of the region. "As far as support by the U.S., can you really be surprised that they are supporting the only real secular democracy in the region, populated by an inordinately oppressed group?" I'm not surprised, I know that the Israel has a leash around America. "Chechnya.... Al Qaeda... nuff said." Proves your ignorance, you seem to have no knowledge about whats going on do you? Afghanistan First and foremost you must be watching the media here, cause I'm Afghani, and there is no way in hell they support what your doing there. Keep on watching CNN lol... believe what you want. Karzai can't even control the different factions from fighting. "Horrible political and economic development in the Muslim world has led to poverty, and restriction of freedoms. " Yep I agree, thanks to your puppet leaders, your sanctions, and foreign politics. The blood of a Muslim can be spilled for cheap price these days. "This has bred religious fundamentalism (the "oppressed" and poor are the easiest converts... see jail for an example). " Yeah they are the ones who are the living example of the US foreign politics so they see the truth of the matter. "The Muslim world has corroded from within, and until they take a positive outlook and try to solve their problems instead of creating diversions to blame things on, they will continue to have these problems." Hey the Muslims are trying to solve their problems just that we are being labled terrorists. heh.

Kefka · February 27, 2002

Reading your posts,TCO, you obviously have no knowledge about the history of the Muslim world. You seem brainwashed with the capitolistic views, everyone for himself. If there was no oil in the region the US would not give a rats *** about the Muslims. Before you post your mindless dribble go read a book or two.

Zen-like Todd · February 27, 2002

Fine... all you've done is claim I havent done my homework, while writing nothing of substance. I guarantee you that I have researched all of these issues far more closely than you, and have approached it from a far more objective perspective as well. Here is what I hear. Where I discuss problems that exist, you put forth dogma that you have been fed since an early age. I could be wrong, but thats what you sound like. I on the other hand, attempt to judge the situation from all sides, ignoring the radicals from both, acquiring as much information as possible, cutting through the cr*p, and coming up with root causes. You obviously have no interest in a debate of any type, and will continue to try to twist things around in an attempt to draw sympathy to the causes you support. Human is a Human. That is what the world is about. The muslim being a brother of a muslim no matter what else is exactly the problem. There's one thing I simply have to reply to. <blockquote>quote:<hr />So when I see pictures of my Palestinian brothers fighting for their freedom, it does hurt my heart. You might not give a damn, but I do.<hr /></blockquote>They are not your brothers. You can use whatever language you like, but its simply not the case. If Muslims were as tight as you say, they would have generated a constructive solution ages ago, instead of perpetuating violence. Your insinuation that I don't care for human llife is appalling, insulting, and disgusting. In fact, your tone in these conversations suggests that it is in fact you who believe that certain people are more "valuable" than others. [ February 27, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: TheChosenOne ]

Zen-like Todd · February 27, 2002

I'm sorry, I just saw that last post... you dont have a leg to stand on, and the pathetic tactic you are attempting to use is ridiculous. Notice that it was identified as the fraud it was in an earlier post, in a different arena. Whatever propaganda fliers you read doesnt actually count as background info, btw. You obviously have no interest in constructive peaceful solutions, because all you mention is violence, and the excuses they provide. The problem isnt on my end Kefka, take a look at yourself.

Zen-like Todd · February 27, 2002

Brainwashed with capitalistic views, eh? Let's see. I grew up in a democratic, secular society ensuring free speech and supporting multiple viewpoints. No madrassas here. No religious intolerance. Your silly attacks hold no water, and you've resorted to them because you dont have anything real to say. And the more troubling thing is that you don't want to have anything of substance to say. It's enough for you to spout propaganda which excuses the behavior of a culture, instead of trying to improve the situation. Which makes you part of the problem.

Kefka · February 27, 2002

I didn't say you didn't care, your posts make it sound like it you could care less about the Muslims. The way you are justifying the Israeli "terrorist" actions. I'm not going to be appologetic like some people about the WTC attacks. Yes, whoever did the atttacks had no right in doing so. But the US needs to re-examine it foreign policies. "You obviously have no interest in constructive peaceful solutions, because all you mention is violence, and the excuses they provide." I'm not the one bombing Afghanistan, I'm not the one funding Israeli army. I'm not the one holding an American-Muslim convert in court for his beliefs. [ February 27, 2002, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

Zen-like Todd · February 27, 2002

That's just it. I care a great deal about Muslims. There is sooo much that they have to offer, at so many levels, as members of the international community. That is why they so badly need to fix their problems.

Kefka · February 27, 2002

Listen TCO, if I offended you sorry. But... "That is why they so badly need to fix their problems" hehe... well the US is part of the problem... It goes both ways.

OT Poll In The Islamic World Shows....

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