3DaysLatr Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 "John Riggins - Signed as a free agent in June 10, 1976. However, consider he was coming off his first 1000-yard season in his first 4 years in the NFL - along with 8 TDs - so he was hardly an NFL castoff pickup." You're right he wasn't a cast off in 1976, but when Gibbs took over in 1981 Riggins was in reitrement (he sat out the entire 1980 season). Talking a guy out of retirement (or taking a year off, different interpretations I've heard (Iwas 8 years old at the time)) Is alot different than trading for a Pro-Bowler. All I'm saying is that I think Gibbs can get production out of someone that won't cost so much and with our D-Line being so, so atrocious I hate seeing draft picks and a phenomenal DB go for offensive help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by 3DaysLatr All I'm saying is that I think Gibbs can get production out of someone that won't cost so much And Gibbs' actions are saying something very different. I'm inclined to trust Gibbs on this one. You are still entitled to an opinion though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdaddy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I have a concern about Portis toughness. The ankle injury at the end of the season looked legit and could happen to any back. But, he sat out about 3 games with a "bruised chest". I don't know if I've ever heard of a RB doing that before. That said, he still put up monster numbers despite the missed games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BD Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I am shocked (shocked) at the lack of joy in this thread. Bailey was going to be gone anyway, and instead we are getting probably the third best running back in football, and clearly he will be the best running back in the NFC - the only other one that comes close is Ahman Green. BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinFaninOKC Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Champ wants out. There is no need for him to stay. Considering the RB's that are out there, Portis is the only one I would want coming to D.C. This will work out. You watch and I guarantee it. I like J.A. Adande, but he was on Red Balls making that statement that our first priority is the O-line. He seemed to forget that is why Bugel is back and also forgetting Gibbs is a run first guy. The O-line will be fine. My big concern is Brunell. He was good once upon a time. He still has gas left in the tank but how much does he have?? :dj: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Gibbs has never had "a star runner". The closest he came to that was Riggins, but that had as much to do with Riggins personality and his rugged running style (which gained favor with fans) as it did any talent he had. Riggins only averaged 4 yards per carry for his career - it was his durability that got him the yards that put him into the HoF. In every instance, Gibbs got good - not great - RB's and put them into a scheme that made sense for them: his scheme. The fact that he traded for guys like Rogers, Riggs, and Byner who were years into their careers with plenty of wear on their tires, rather than trying to draft or trade for the Dickersons or Paytons of the world tells you all you need to know. Gibbs merely needs a good runner who's durable and tough and who holds onto the ball. Anything else is merely gravy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Die Hard That's completely inaccurate. All we know is he wants to renegotiate his contract because he feels he's underpaid. We also know he's threatened to possibly holdout.. and we've read stories that he's backed off from those comments. And we also know he's under contract for 2 more years and basically has to honor that contract. I don't blame Shanahan for wanting to get rid of a player who won't honor his contract and makes life unnecessarily difficult for the franchise. DH- is there any real difference between a player creating so much dissention that the team wants to trade him because he wants to be paid, and that same player just asking for a trade? We don't seem to think so when it comes to discussing Champ, so why doesn't that comparison come up with Portis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by redman DH- is there any real difference between a player creating so much dissention that the team wants to trade him because he wants to be paid, and that same player just asking for a trade? We don't seem to think so when it comes to discussing Champ, so why doesn't that comparison come up with Portis? The thing with Portis is he holds no leverage. He's under contract. Just like the same situation with Ramsey. He can moan all he wants but he's under contract and the Skins don't have to accomodate his trade requests - if of course those reports hold to be true. That's a great situation the Skins have. Two relatively young players tied to multiple years of their rookie contracts. Bailey, OTOH, was going to command a hefty price tag as a "franchise" player. Now that's not to say if the Skins renegotiate Portis' contract that it won't put a dimmer on the trade. Personally, if I'm the Skins, I play hardball with Portis too. I wouldn't give him his cash... or I'd increase his salary a million or two and tell him to shutup and play for 2 years. There's absolutely no reason for the Skins to budge on Portis' new contract and give him absurd bonus money and salary at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by 3DaysLatr Do you recall the compensation that the Skins paid for Riggins, Riggs, Rogers and Byner? Riggins was acquired so far back that it's a BMFT, but upon research he was a FA acquisition (Football Encyclopedia 1994 Edition Pg 604). I remember vividly that we got Byner for Mike Oliphant (this was one of the worst trades in NFL history but Byner fumbled his way into the Brown's doghouse. Compensation for Rogers is not listed and since the Same source listed above (page 807) calls it a trade and I don't recall the parameters I'd assume it was a mid-range draft pick (I'd think I'd remember a first rounder going, though I could be wrong). The trade for Riggs is called "heralded" but after taking a look at his numbers for the prior season (John Settle's back-up, rushed for 488 yards, 1TD and 22 receps) I'd think 1st round compensation would be ludicrous though I remember we seemed to never draft in the 1st round in those days. Anyway, these moves did not decimate the team. Not and I don't think we got ripped off by any of them either. BTW: Do you know the exact compensations? 4 Riggs and Rogers I mean. Rogers was obtained in April 1985 by trading the redskins' Ist round pick for Rogers and 3 other picks (10th and 11th picks were Terry Orr and Raleigh Mackenzie according to my source Redskins: a history of Washington's team Riggs was acquired by trading with the Altanta falcons and from memory it was 1st and 3rd choices for Riggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Ian Riggs was acquired by trading with the Altanta falcons and from memory it was 1st and 3rd choices for Riggs Actually, Riggs was obtained on April 22, 1989 in a trade with Atlanta for a second round choice in 1989 and a 1st round pick in 1990. The Redskins also received a fifth round selection in 1990. I've got the media guides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinFaninOKC Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I think Die Hard hit the nail on the head!!! Give him a raise but not too much. Make him earn his millions. Snyder's been burned by other transactions in the past. Wait and see if Portis puts up monster numbers in Redskins jersey. :dj: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselfan44 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 The threat of a runner like Portis should give Brunell/Ramsey plenty of time and options. I think this is the right move for now. What I mean by "for now" is if we can afford to pay to upgrade the defensive line, get a Champ replacement , and pay the 5th pick overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 DH, the Portis trade makes zero sense to me if we fail to extend his contract. While he'd be a RFA - as a 4th year player - and worth a 1st round pick in compensation to us if he was signed away from us in two years, I'd still think that we'd come out on the short end of this exchange. I still think that we can afford to pay Bailey the average of the top five CB's. Bailey can't afford to "dog it" for a year, because that would only hurt him in efforts to either extend his contract with us, or to get signed the following year as a FA. I just don't see how we have the weaker hand here and need to have Denver dictate so much to us in trade. Again, it would be awfully fun to have Portis here. I'd root for him like I do any Redskins player, so it's certainly not personal (beyond concerns I have about his size). I just don't see how we need him enough to pay in trade what the Donk's are asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by redman Again, it would be awfully fun to have Portis here. I'd root for him like I do any Redskins player, so it's certainly not personal (beyond concerns I have about his size). I just don't see how we need him enough to pay in trade what the Donk's are asking. Again Chris, it's all relative. Do you pay Bailey a top 5 CB salary and the risk of a 2nd round pick? Or do you take Portis who is making league minimum right now and another top flight FA corner who's going to command significantly less than Bailey. Talent wise... the advantage is in the latter deal. Dollars wise... the advantage is in the latter deal. Even with a renegotiated Portis contract. Makes sense to me. Of course, you can argue both ways. I just don't see how anyone can say the trade is lopsided though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinFaninOKC Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Buy that Die Hard a Samuel L. Jackson!!!! First round is on me. MMM. MMMMMM!!!! *****!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Die Hard Actually, Riggs was obtained on April 22, 1989 in a trade with Atlanta for a second round choice in 1989 and a 1st round pick in 1990. The Redskins also received a fifth round selection in 1990. I've got the media guides Cool, I defer to you and your media guide sources:notworthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Ian Cool, I defer to you and your media guide sources:notworthy Everyone will have access to this data shortly. As fast as I can enter the data into the databases. Right now, I'm going to finish up the games database. Then I'm going to finish up the coaches database. Then the draft database. Then the player database (ie stats and bio). I've written off the next 12 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Joe Gibbs has made lots of mistakes when it has come to the expected blue-chip types: Riggs, Howard, Wilson and Koch for example. In the case of Riggs even though we gave up a first rounder for him and as such he was a bust (albiet, still useful which is another thing he does), we got a steal in Byner (for Elephant? What were the Browns smoking!) and another in Lachey. I think this is an extension of his ability to adjust in games -- he rarely seemed to be unable to find an option that would work. He had a knack for finding guys who everyone else passed on. Clark was considered too small to pair with Monk even though he'd had success. He and Sanders were not considered the 'solution' to our WR quandry by most 'experts' who at the time thought of them as a kind of consolation prize for some wr we drafted who they called Monk redux. He also has a history of getting the less heralded players (Rypien and Brown come to mind) to perform. Evidence suggest that Mr. Gibbs is good low-end talent evaluator and knows how to get a guy to perform to the best of his ability --doing the right thing is more important than doing things right (although doing things right is not unimportant). He gets no-name types to be good. Now, while he does pursue a 'talent stacking' strategy (good players at all positions combined with depth), he does tend to have a few great players at certain positions (Monk and Grimm come to mind). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yank Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by kingdaddy I have a concern about Portis toughness. The ankle injury at the end of the season looked legit and could happen to any back. But, he sat out about 3 games with a "bruised chest". I don't know if I've ever heard of a RB doing that before. That said, he still put up monster numbers despite the missed games. Portis was injured with a bruised sternum in the San Diego game of 9/14 where he sat out the second half but still had 129 yards on 12 carries. He played the first half against the Raiders and rushed for 42 yards on 10 carries but sat out the second half. Portis sat out the entire game vs. the Lions on 9/28. Portis was inactive against the Colts on 12/21 because of a sprained right knee and ankle sustained 12/14 against Cleveland After the Bronos were in the playoffs, they rested many players, including Portis for the last regular season game vs. the Packers on 12/28. Portis played in the playoff game on 1/4 and rushed for 68 yards on 17 carries. So he missed three games plus two halves so he missed a quarter of the season. That equates to a 2000 yards per season pace, assuming (which is always a dumb thing to do) he stayed healthy for the entire season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Your are correct, BD -- people are scared. By what? I'm not sure. Losing a #2? Hey, I'd love to have it, but if that #2 is the difference between getting Portis and not getting Portis (and, more importantly, getting some significant for Champ), let's just have the guts to do it & not look back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 RC: Yr forgetting that Lachey was a total blue chipper. He was considered the top young left tackle in the NFL when we ripped the Raiders off to get him. It took Schrader, whom the Raiders were looking at as their QB savior. George Rogers had some very productive years for us, as well. It was a different league, so we don't really know how Gibbs will do w/modern free agency, but -- minus a couple of slips (everyone has them) -- his talent evaluation has always been consistent and strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Fakeman Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 All of you little girls stop crying about this trade.....Gibbs knows what he's doing....AND HE IS NOT GOING TO LEAVE US WITH 2 DRAFT PICKS...... Watch, Ramsey is out of here.....for draft picks, I bet.....and then all of you guys can sit back, with our new RB, new CB, and draft picks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpfan Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Troy Fakeman All of you little girls stop crying about this trade.....Gibbs knows what he's doing....AND HE IS NOT GOING TO LEAVE US WITH 2 DRAFT PICKS...... Watch, Ramsey is out of here.....for draft picks, I bet.....and then all of you guys can sit back, with our new RB, new CB, and draft picks..... u say that like trading ramsey is a good thing. :puke: look, obviously gibbs wants portis to be here. if gibbs wants the guy, then we need him. its not like runningback isnt a need for cripes sake! trung has flopped, and not only has betts not proven anything gibbs himself didnt think he was feature back material. he said he sees him as more of a "third down back". bailey didnt want to be here so we would have lost him anyway. how can u complain about getting one of the best young rbs in the league for him? all the complaints about this trade seem incredibly pessimistic and whiny. i think going crazy over the 2nd rounder is also a little silly. we have NO PROOF that we would have gotten portis without the pick and i highly doubt we would have. where is the faith? its not like we are just trading our best players away for nothing here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 No Ernie, I was not forgetting about Lachey, in fact I metioned him as one of the steals. We gave up what everybody and their dog believed was an average to below average NFL QB (with hindsight we KNOW this is true) for a guy who everyone believed was a highly talented but underperforming tackle who was on his second team in an era when there was little movement among the greatly talented. Even then, this guy was considered injury prone and after previous dealings with Al... And one blue-chip means very little, even a blind squirrel finds acorns now and again. What I am saying is that even though Joe Gibbs makes personel mistakes at the high-end, they never seem to be a major obstacle for him to build a winner. Even when he makes bad decisions, they don't destroy probable success. He lets the best player play and he will NOT let his ego or anybody else's prevent him from winning. Also, when I say blue-chip, I mean a guy who is thought to have potential. In hindsight, it quite obvious that guys like Jacoby and Clark had loads of talent but that was not the consenus when they started out. THEIR FAME WAS MADE BY JOE GIBBS! Gibbs wanted to trade Riggins, Mosley and Williams. Jacoby came here because Gibbs was tricked. His first impression of D Green was 'who is this skinny kid, my new intern?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagletooth Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I think we are making the best out of a bad situation with Bailey. We are getting an elite player. Even if it is at a position that is not an immediate high priority. If we were trading for an elite D-lineman then I would expect less complaints. That offer doesn't exist. And can likely be filled anyway on March 3rd with the addition of Kearse. We could not get a RB of Portis's quality on the open market. Maybe some would prefer Bailey compensation in the form of draft picks. That is valid, considering we will only have 2 picks remaining. I'll take a proven young player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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