fansince62 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 as usual....Art...one has to wade through the dozens of ad hominems that uniquely characterize your style of argument. since I have observed your democratic approach in this regard on all your posts today....I will simply assume that you are on some sort of monthly intellectual period and cleaning out all the pulpy dirt your system feels it needs to jettison...... That Joe is your personal Christ and saviour is great! I happen to like the guy also. I'm glad he's back. I don't happen to subscribe to your formula that everything that Joe does and thinks has an ineluctable link to received truth and ultimate success. but that's a personal matter I guess. That you believe in Joe above me and everyone else is frankly not terribly interesting. The shocker would be if you didn't! I'm laughing all the way on this one! There are clearly unhappy players. There is clearly Joe trying to right the Redskin ship that has been listing badly the last several years. Some disagree on whether brunell was the right guy, at the right price, while accepting that the reason for making such a move has credibility. it is possible to think that way and still hope for the best - no kidding! Art...you have spoken.......we who aren't privileged with "known reality" - or should I say blessed with your understanding of it....are egoists lost in the desert....I can accept just about any criticism and almost all contemptuous, didactic, personally offensive attacks. But egoism?!!!! The kettle is calling out the pot on this one.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Art The only information that escapes the team is that which is leaked on purpose. This is why you almost never see team sources cited. You always see league sources. It's because our management is very closed. And the media hates it. Art you dont know that the sources are not coming from the redskins. Of course whomever is leaking it won't say from managment it would be listed as anonymous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Art As for the rest, I happen to KNOW specifically how things function at Redskins Park. So you talk to Gibbs then I see Art if you did work there you don't anymore so I don't think you understand what happens today. If you have sources then name them, let me guess you can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I'll respond when I decide if Art insutled me or not...................... Get back to you on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 22, 2004 Author Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by jbooma Art you dont know that the sources are not coming from the redskins. Of course whomever is leaking it won't say from managment it would be listed as anonymous. JB, Find a single article written anywhere that lists "anonymous" sources. You won't find many. You will find "team sources" or "league sources" and that may even contain anonymous before it. But, there is almost never a true anonymous source in journalism. There is always attribution as to approximately where the source came from. A league source can be ANYONE connected with any team EXCEPT the team you're writing about. Team sources are sources that are internal and those stories tend to be a better read of a situation. Go read the stories and cite the sources used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Art You will find "team sources" Isn't that what Nunyo quoted in his articles, "team sources" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 J Dude who gives a f*ck The bottom line is that it doesnt matter if the players are upset. the one constant with the losing has been the players and Joe Gibbus Maximus has more clout in one hand than the entire team There only bargaining chip some of these snivelers have is a high salary and or signing bonus. They cried for discipline after basically tanking or did you forget? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by NavyDave J Dude who gives a f*ck What are you talking about?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 22, 2004 Author Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by fansince62 as usual....Art...one has to wade through the dozens of ad hominems that uniquely characterize your style of argument. since I have observed your democratic approach in this regard on all your posts today....I will simply assume that you are on some sort of monthly intellectual period and cleaning out all the pulpy dirt your system feels it needs to jettison...... That Joe is your personal Christ and saviour is great! I happen to like the guy also. I'm glad he's back. I don't happen to subscribe to your formula that everything that Joe does and thinks has an ineluctable link to received truth and ultimate success. but that's a personal matter I guess. That you believe in Joe above me and everyone else is frankly not terribly interesting. The shocker would be if you didn't! I'm laughing all the way on this one! There are clearly unhappy players. There is clearly Joe trying to right the Redskin ship that has been listing badly the last several years. Some disagree on whether brunell was the right guy, at the right price, while accepting that the reason for making such a move has credibility. it is possible to think that way and still hope for the best - no kidding! Art...you have spoken.......we who aren't privileged with "known reality" - or should I say blessed with your understanding of it....are egoists lost in the desert....I can accept just about any criticism and almost all contemptuous, didactic, personally offensive attacks. But egoism?!!!! The kettle is calling out the pot on this one.......... Did hims hurt hims little self, Al? After you opened up calling some of us cheerleaders, then proceeded to ask about our liberal credentials or whether we're really mullahs, are you actually complaining about ad hominem attacks and being serious about it, or did you intend your opening response here to be laughed off as hypocritical crybaby sh!t as I have? Let me know because I don't mean to laugh it off if you really meant to complain about my behavior without comment on your own. I certainly wouldn't want to appear insensitive to your needs to do as you do and criticize others for doing as you do. For the rest, let me say again, do you believe there's an open competition for the starting QB job or not? Yes, or no? If no, you aren't thinking independently. You're thinking stupidly with the sort of ego that goes beyond reason because you actually think you know what Joe Gibbs mean MORE than Joe Gibbs. That's the ego we're talking about here Al and I think if you don't know it you should recognize it. Am I an arrogant pr1ck? You'd better believe it. Yet despite that arrogance, I have NEVER allowed myself to simply dismiss DIRECT INFORMATION because it conflicts with my personal beliefs. If Gibbs proves to be a liar, we'll know it. But, to presume you simply know the deal better than him DESPITE what he says is the height of ego that goes beyond anything I have ever allowed myself. Brunell may be the wrong guy. No one is declaring he's the right one with certainty. Brunell may have been had at the wrong price. No one is saying that's not plausible, if not likely. What we know is Brunell is the guy our coach wanted. He got him. What we know is our coach believes everyone must compete for a starting job. Even, shockingly, quarterbacks. What our coach believes is he needs to have a solid quarterback situation to be successful. What our coach now believes is he's got that situation. Given the track record of our coach, it seems we ought not be so openly skeptical over his beliefs on what it takes to win. At least not until his words don't match with his actions or until his beliefs prove outdated and unworkable. Vermeil had that happen to him. His way wasn't working. He changed and found a new way to work. But, that's a different story. I don't actually believe Brunell was that smart a move from a trade standpoint or a contract standpoint. I appreciate the football sense behind it and I certainly hope Gibbs has a good handle on the situation so it works out. What I don't question is the reason Gibbs engineered what he did. That's the ego that you seem to suffer from. You actually presume to think you REALLY know what Gibbs is doing despite what Gibbs is saying. Do you understand the disconnect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 art...you fired the first salvo by calling people out by name and asserting they were stupid for not accepting your pov. bright as you are man...get the sequence of events correct on this one. you know as well as I do that the warp & woof of your style is personalized frontal assault. *ell...when not the subject of it it's fun to read. when one is subjected to it he/she can crawl under a rock or respond in kind! I'm not thin skinned. And I still admire you/read everything you post avidly - even when you are a pain-n-the XXX! You are Art. There is no other way to put it. There is none other like you. But, you must confess (just a wee bit?) that you have been on a tear the last day or so. geeez...save it for when we can lock arms to gang up on Kerry!!! adieu and so long.....I have wounds to heal!!!! btw...of course I ultimately believe Joe is completely honest and moving things in the right direction. I just think that the player's pov needs to be aired (or what I think it might be) and that the cap/FA angle is a very interesting change that Joe must adapt to in the newer NFL. he has a plan. but he will also be learning along the way - just as he did previously. the fun will be in watching how he works his way through to a craetive, successful solution. I do have one reservation: but it is way too early to judge. Is Joe accepting as his mission the responsibility of stablizing this franchise even after he leaves? I think it is in the cards, but can't teel just yet. That is why I find the FA stuff so interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowtrain Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Well, let’s get one thing straight. I never said that the Redskins would trade Ramsey. If you can show me a quote where I did say that, let’s just say I’d be extremely impressed. Because trading Ramsey defeats 50% of the reason that Brunell was acquired in the first place – to have 2 solid QBs on the roster. Further, players under contract who make demands, be it trade or straight hold out, are only appeased in a couple of circumstances. That is, when they’re a cornerstone starter at a key position or when they’ve got the unwavering support of the entire locker room. Then, their demands can stir up enough negative energy that they can be a significant distraction. But if Ramsey chooses to cry in the corner unrelentingly, people will simply label him selfish and then lose interest. What I did say, more accurately, was that Ramsey would be frustrated by the Brunell acquisition, and even so frustrated that he could request a trade. On that position, I faced significant opposition. But let’s realize this: Sexton is a man who would be committing career suicide by unilaterally misrepresenting the wishes of his client on such an important issue as this. Well, the latest we heard was Sexton’s three-word quote, “he wants out.” It’s tough to see how that’s evidence that I’m on the wrong side of this one, but I guess if you say so. Now, the issue of Brunell as the designated starter. Here, there’s less black and white because the notion is that the “open competition” that’s slated to occur isn’t quite that. And absent Ramsey winning the position, it’s impossible to prove that it’s a foregone conclusion. But we do know three things. 1. Handling Ramsey’s sensitive feelings was already a difficult task for Gibbs. Despite Gibbs pounding on the table that an “open competition” will indeed exist, Ramsey is still sulking. Imagine, just imagine, the Sexton quotes regurgitated by Pasquarelli if Gibbs admitted that the job was Brunell’s? Whatever negative reaction you’re now witnessing would no doubt be multiplied by 10 – not to mention amplification of Ramsey support from media and fans. But with the supposed existence of an open competition, Ramsey’s sympathy and cause for frustration is drastically undermined. That makes sense. 2. Next, I’ve already invited someone to provide an example of a veteran backup QB signed fresh to a roster for a $5M signing bonus, who then was ushered straight to the bench without starting. Not surprisingly, I didn’t have many takers. Here, we’re talking about $8.6M and a 3rd rounder. That’s extraordinary. Plenty of coaches adhere to the capable backup QB philosophy, but they ALL implement it at a modest fraction of the cost. There are good and obvious reasons for that. Gibbs is smart enough to understand those reasons, even if he doesn’t have experience coaching under the cap. BTW, those who insist that the proration of the contract nullifies the “starter” contract are off base. Teams and players only care about signing bonuses and up front money – ask Champ. That was, is, and will be reserved for starters because of real cash flow concerns and the dead money liabilities associated with injury and/or early release. Here, the 3rd rounder is just icing on the cake. 3. But really, the issue isn’t so much whether it’s smart to spend that much money on a bench player when, it could be used to, say, sign an impact FA who will start on the DL, or to round out the demands of Champ. It’s that the contract is a reflection of how much Gibbs is enamored with Brunell as a QB. He likes the guy. Well, for that money, he better love the guy. Brunell’s spent a decade amassing experience and showcasing his talents and Gibbs isn’t about to completely forget those qualities, simply because Ramsey completes a couple more passes in camp. We’ve seen allegiances in the NFL between coach and QB time and again. Well, Brunell is Gibbs’ guy, Ramsey is not. That’s why Brunell will start and Ramsey won’t. Gibbs says there's an open competition at every position, including QB. That's the smart thing for a new coach to say. Tubula rasa is in effect. Because Gibbs said it, you're a fool not to believe it. Now tell me that Arrington's job is at risk too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 22, 2004 Author Share Posted February 22, 2004 Al, Let me just correct one thing. It's not my point of view at all that I'm calling people out on for disbelieving or accepting. I'm calling out people who are disbelieving or who fail to accept the point of view of Joe Gibbs who's on record, over and over, here. That's the position that is unshakable at the moment. Denying Joe Gibbs knows what Joe Gibbs means or intends when Joe Gibbs is telling you is what's stupid. There's no other way to put it. I can appreciate that you care about the players point of views. Personally, I don't. The players were 5-11. They have no point of view I care about at present. They can be disgruntled. I don't care. Do you think Dallas fans were overly concerned with how Parcells would be taken by individual players last offseason? Must we weep for the coddled, pampered, 5-11 athlete who complains because his world has been turned upside down? IT SHOULD BE TURNED UPSIDE DOWN. Maybe that will mean 11-5. It doesn't matter to me how players take the shake up that's coming for them. It matters to me that Gibbs finds those who measure up to HIS standards. Even if that's not as talented an individual. Joe knows how to make a team play like a winner. Thusfar no one on our roster has shown he has the same skill. Therefore, there's ONE point of view that matters at Redskins Park. And that's Joe's. If he shakes some people up, well, good. It's about time. Marty shook some people up, but the team had a mutiny and Marty caved. Joe will shake some people up and if there's a mutiny, it won't be Gibbs who caves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Unfortunately Skinz_Domin8, who knows how good Ramsay can be. He was placed in Spurrier's "Duck and Chuck" offense that no one could understand. He stood up to the pressure and received plenty of kudos for doing so. To say that Ramsay hasn't done jack is a little harsh considering the system he was operating with. I imagine that both QBs will do well with Gibb's offense. Unless Brunell throws up all over himself, I would have to think that he would win the starting job. It will be interesting to see who each QB plays with during the Pre-season. Brunell - 1st team in the 1st game. Ramsay with the 1st team in the 2nd game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TODD Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by Art Al, Let me just correct one thing. It's not my point of view at all that I'm calling people out on for disbelieving or accepting. I'm calling out people who are disbelieving or who fail to accept the point of view of Joe Gibbs who's on record, over and over, here. That's the position that is unshakable at the moment. Denying Joe Gibbs knows what Joe Gibbs means or intends when Joe Gibbs is telling you is what's stupid. There's no other way to put it. I can appreciate that you care about the players point of views. Personally, I don't. The players were 5-11. They have no point of view I care about at present. They can be disgruntled. I don't care. Do you think Dallas fans were overly concerned with how Parcells would be taken by individual players last offseason? Must we weep for the coddled, pampered, 5-11 athlete who complains because his world has been turned upside down? IT SHOULD BE TURNED UPSIDE DOWN. Maybe that will mean 11-5. It doesn't matter to me how players take the shake up that's coming for them. It matters to me that Gibbs finds those who measure up to HIS standards. Even if that's not as talented an individual. Joe knows how to make a team play like a winner. Thusfar no one on our roster has shown he has the same skill. Therefore, there's ONE point of view that matters at Redskins Park. And that's Joe's. If he shakes some people up, well, good. It's about time. Marty shook some people up, but the team had a mutiny and Marty caved. Joe will shake some people up and if there's a mutiny, it won't be Gibbs who caves. Bravo. :applause: :applause: :applause: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I'm down with Art on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 and no one ever stated - for public consumption - anything other than the right things. cmon fellas. and, from my pov, the issue has never been Joe G's truth telling. in fact, that never enterred my mind. what I take issue with is the idea that players should swallow the team concept when management manifestly doesn't and cannot in the day and age of cap. a team is as good as the season is long - and no more. further, if you go back and trace my threads pre and post Elba, you will find a consistent theme on my part vis discipline and player accountability. I just think that is something done on the field and in the locker room - not in contract negotiations. Joe's gonna have to be careful here wearing both the coach's hat and the President's hat. Leading large groups of people entails more than just the exercise of will. this has grown tedious. what's done is done. time to move on to the draft, FA and and mini-camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 This needs to be bumped up. We haven't even had a mini-camp or draft with Joe this time around and people are all over the place. Ramsey is staying 50/50 that Champ will be here also. Somewhere, Lenny P is Super Sizing his order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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