kleese Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 The three words I use in the title of this thresd have very little if anything to do with our most recent losses. I did watch the game yesterday, as I always do, but I felt NO pain at all when that kick went through the uprights and actually immediatley thought about our better draft position. The recent losses have meant nothing to me. But reading the board lately, I find myself with nothing to add. I have no energy to play "GM" and stuff like that. For the first time in my life (I truly mean this) I am completley hopeless when it comes to the Redskins. I care, and always will. But I really don't care what we do at this point. Spurrier could stay or leave-- don't really care. Edwards could stay or leave--don't really care. Don't really care who we draft, or who we sign. At this point, nothing will matter to me until it's Decemeber and we're playing games that matter again. Until then, I will assume that whatever move we make will fail. I think the losing culture that invades this franchise is so ingrained at this point, that there simply is not a cut and dry answer for how to fix it. I honestly could see Spurrier going to Miami and doing well, but I do think he'll EVER do well in Washington? Why? Just because. I guess I've finally hit the breaking point. The last half of this season just wasn't fun. I really had as little interest as I've ever had in the Redskins. I'll never stop watching-- again, I'm a die-hard, I would do ANYTHING for the Redskins to get back on top, but I'm so jaded at this point, that much of my passion has been drained. Sure, I'll have an "interest" in the off-season. I'll monitor it daily. But I don't think there's anything we could do in the off-season that would really get me excited for next year. I can't think of anything. I have NEVER, EVER said this before, but I think I mean it this time. I want us to lose Saturday. No reason to fall a few spots in the draft order, and IMO, we don't DESERVE to win. It's too late now. I don't want a fluke win at the end of the season to get anyone thinking that things weren't as bad as they were this year. Just end this season. I know this was like the darkest thread imaginable and really provides nothing conscructive, but that's my point: I like to think I now a thing or two about sports, and I like message boards because it's fun to exchange ideas and strategies, etc... but right now I don't have ANY ideas and strategies other than that I truly would be in favor of cutting every player, every coach, and starting over like and expansion team. I mean that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Last night I was conjuring a post I was going to title ... Clueless, Gutless ... Defenseless. But it was too depressing to contemplate actually writing it. With the possible exception of a five-game or so stretch under Kurt Schottenheimer, it's been 11 long, long years since my favorite team fielded a defense I knew would keep us in games, and then sometimes actually help us win them in the clutch, the way an NFL defense is supposed to. I'm still quietly hopeful that the fates will conspire to fix that at some point in the forseeable future (hopefully while my 12 year old son who lives and dies with this team is still living at home and I can enjoy it with him) ... whether it's under Steve Spurrier or Whoever's Next, and whether it's under Snyder/Cerrato or Snyder/Whoever's Next. I told him a couple of years ago that one of the oldest, truest cliches in football is defense wins championships ... and he believed me. Just like I believed MY Dad when he told me the same thing. I just wish I could explain to him, in terms he'd understand, why, in his entire life, our team hasn't seemed to be able to get with the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Originally posted by Om I'm still quietly hopeful that the fates will conspire to fix that at some point in the forseeable future (hopefully while my 12 year old son who lives and dies with this team is still living at home and I can enjoy it with him) I'm much more hopeful. My son is only 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Touche. I may have to have another kid. * Tell me I didn't just say that. :paranoid: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins24 Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Wow, another completely original post from Kleese saying the same stuff we never heard before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Kleese, I hear you. I've kicked into my 'ambivalent mode'. I refuse to get upset over games that mean nothing. There will come a day when we return to glory. Stay tuned. and Skins24....try the 'ignore' feature if you don't want to hear it. I'm tempted to try mine out right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buster Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Om, you and Tarhog make great points. With this team losing so much over these past 12 years, its hard to get any kids to start rooting for this team. I became a fan because of my dad, and I've tried to pass that along to my nephew. I even took him to a couple of games back in '99 (including the playoff game). The great thing was that he really started to show some interest. But after the last couple of years, he doesn't even know who the coach is anymore. Who can blame the kid, it changes almost every year. Kids today have way too many other things to keep them occupied and rooting for a bad team is on the bottom of the list. I'm worried. I see more kids in the Tidewater/Richmond area of VA rooting for teams that win rather than sticking with the home team. Another 10 years of this and Danny will have a real problem if attendance drops. Until then let's hope for a miracle. PS- When I have kids they WILL root for the Skins! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Happy Birthday (tmrw) Buster. My daughter always wants to know why I root for a 'bunch of losers'. Its getting harder and harder to answer : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 My wife has arthritis. She cries in pain and then asks why I don't have any sympathy. I tell her I'm a Redskins fan. I've got a much tougher life. just kidding of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins24 Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I apologize, I put the ":)" there to indicate I was just kidding/playing/not serious. I should have been more clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sashae Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 You need two things to win in the NFL. The ability to run the ball. The ability to stop the run. We can't do either. -s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleese Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 Tarhog-- Did you get the email I sent you awhile back, with my "list?" __ I didn't hear back from you and just want to make sure you got it. Thanks. And I think the "kids and new fans" thing is a REAL serious concern. The Redskins are really testing the waters with their fans right now. The die-hards, like most of us, are simply too addicted to ever leave or even "take a break" despite our occasional rants to the contrary. But this is a hard to LIKE-- and if you don't already love them, then it's hard to imagine why anyone would go out of their way to do so. I'm a strange case. I fell in love with the Redskins at age 5 living in Tulsa, Oklahoma--I have no ties to the DC/metro area, although my family is from NY and I was born outside of Philly. I don't really rememeber how or why I fell for the skins, but they were pretty darn good in the very early 80's and that probably had something to do with it If I was a 5 year old now, I doubt the skins would be my choice. Once you pick a team, they are your team forever. Fans that flip-flop aren't fans anyway, and I don't care about them. So, I don't worry about losing current fans-- but I do wonder/worry about how in the world we'll ever develop new fans that know/care about the team as deeply as we do. It's a tough sell right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I'm just riding the rapids. Just like kleese. I'm not hoping for a loss on Saturday, but 'just end the season' does sound about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buster Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I think this team is a tough sell to new fans because they don't experience the cycle of improvement almost every other team in the league does. In the 12 years the Skins have sucked, the Colts have gone from a playoff team (w/Harbaugh) to a crappy team and back to a good team. The same with Carolina, Dallas, New England, etc. Meanwhile, the Skins have stayed .500 or worse every single year. Only Arizona can claim the same thing. Isn't that a scary statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morning Wood Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I find myself sharing these same sentiments. My love of my team hasn't dispersed, I still plan my life around the Skins' schedule, I still jump of my couch every time something good happens, and I unleash a terret's laiden vocal tirade when something bad happens. (Much more of the latter this season) But, I too have become kind of apathetic. I had the pleasure of watching the Bears game with a few friends, one of which a "boys" fan. I almost found their seemingly genuine positive outlook during the course of the game rather comical. And I didn't put forth the normal fight when arguing with my television over controversial calls/plays (like the non-td to Hasselback). I never got too exited or hopeful. Then when Edinger stepped on the field to line up his kick in that odd stance, I had a moment of acceptance. My friends scoffed at me, "Look at that wind, there is absolutely no way". But I knew better. I watched as "Mr. Ed" stood there, much like a figure skater waiting for the intro to La Bamba, with the acceptance that although all signs pointed to him missing, this kick would indeed sail through. Then he approached the ball, aimed his kick at section 405, and as if it were guided by the hand of God himself, split the uprights beautifully. At that moment, amidst a sea of "you gotta be kiddin me's" from my cohorts, a slight grin drew itself accross my face in a Grinchly fashion. I turned to my friends and said, "Tis my season". I'll continue to spend most of my waking moments following the Skins, but I am a bit worn out at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I always use this crowd pleaser as I am knocking back my 10th beer..... "I don't have a drinking problem.......I'm a Redskins fan" People immediately understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Originally posted by Om I told him a couple of years ago that one of the oldest, truest cliches in football is defense wins championships ... and he believed me. Just like I believed MY Dad when he told me the same thing. I just wish I could explain to him, in terms he'd understand, why, in his entire life, our team hasn't seemed to be able to get with the program. I have an answer to your rhetorical question: ... because Redskin owners think offense -- specifically, a strong passing offense with a big-gun QB -- excites the fans, sells tickets and merchandise, and makes them money. Think about it. JKC, bless his soul, tried to reincarnate Joe Gibbs by bringing us Norv Turner, who in turn brought us Shuler and Westbrook. Collective amnesia caused the franchise to forget the Petitbon/Allen part of the glory-days deal: championship defense. Snyder's first act as incoming Redskins owner was an attempt to veto the trade for Brad Johnson (too wimpy to sell tickets). Then, despite a record-setting 1999 offense under Johnson, Snyder proceeded to buy Jeff George for a four-year, top-dollar contract -- against the wishes of Turner, and leaving Johnson without a contract extension. Here was Snyder, the billionaire fantasy football owner, believing he knew better than his passing-guru coach. Then came the boring Marty era, which Snyder terminated despite a closing 8-3 record: too boring for Snyder. In comes Spurrier. Up to his old antics, Snyder then proceeded to draft Spurrier's QB of the future (Ramsey) without much input from Spurrier -- who clearly preferred to start Wuerffel & Matthews while waiting to draft Grossman. When wimpy-armed, bible-thumping Wuerffel saw too much of the field for Snyder's tastes, he acquired big-gun backup Rob Johnson and cut Wuerffel over QB guru Spurrier's strenuous objections. For good measure, he cut boring Kenny Watson (a good blocker and solid runner) in order to keep a wispy-but-exciting Trojan scatback who broke his hand around the first time he touched the ball this season -- again over the objections of his offensive coaches. So, Om, back to your question ... why can't our team get with the program and build a championship defense? Because when push comes to shove, owners like a passing offense first, especially with a big-gun QB. Even when the choice of QB isnt' the choice of their hand-picked, offensive-guru coach. Because, incredibly, the owner feels he knows more about offense and winning football games than the professional coach. Is it all Snyder's fault? Not really. In a way, it's partly our fault as fans. Judging from this forum, we can't stand wimpy guys like Brad Johnson, Wuerffel and Hasselbeck. Who cares if they run the offense, at times, arguably more competently than Jeff George and Patrick Ramsey? We run those wusses out of town. The Washington Redskins are our own Frankenstain monster. Dan Synder is giving the fans what fans asked for. He's dumping the wimpy QBs, acquiring the big-gun QBs, and acquiring big-name skill players over meat-and-potatoes players like defensive linemen. This is what happens when fans get what they ask for. Sure, we wanted to win, too, but sometimes we're not even satisfied with winning. Wuerffel beat the Rams? Hasselbeck beat the Giants? Who cares. We'd rather lose with Ramsey (but damn the Giants and Eagles games were exciting!) and then find scapegoats for the losses. And that's about the truth. Ask Snyder. He's the one counting our money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Hey, I'll take my full share of the blame. I like Ramsey much better than Hasslebeck. Now go TP my house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleSteve Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Come on now! The Eagles from 1962 - 1977 were absolutely pathetic. They had one winning season (1966, 9-5) and one .500 season in 1974. That's 16 years of futility after winning the championship in 1960. Sure, it was a rough time, but most fans certainly weren't fair-weather enough to drop the team and neither were their kids. Of course, there was an influx of Cowboy bandwagoners, but that happens everywhere. The Philly fans contented themselves with booing Santa Claus, drinking to excess etc. knowing that eventually the cycle would end and the team would at least make a run. They did under Vermeil. I started watching the team in the early '70s as a kid, and lived through those years of futility. The Eagles weren't even competitive in those years. It's no wonder they have a losing record against every other NFC East team. Most if it can be traced right back to that 16 year period where they were winning 2, 3 and 4 games per year. Even Vermeil's first two teams combined to win only 9 games. In '78 they turned it around and made the playoffs. Believe me, some of those 9 wins were as ugly as they come (thanks Giants! ) From 4-10, then 5-9, then 9-7 and the playoffs. Not much improvement was shown in those 2 years to indicate that the third year would lead to a playoff appearance. From an outsider's perspective: many of you have been spoiled by the outright success of the Gibbs years. As someone (maybe Om?) put it: the Redskins don't have some sort of birthright that automatically makes them a respectable, winning franchise every year. Most teams go through periods like this. Some, like the Saints and Cardinals, rarely get out of it. It's a down time for the Redskins right now. If you're a real 'Skins fan, then your kids will follow you by seeing your passion. If you're a bandwagoner, serves you right if your kids end up liking the Cowboys or some other frontrunner (Rams?). I'm sorry, but the Redskins haven't been bad enough long enough to cause this sort of fan-identity crisis. You shouldn't need a godforsaken Eagles fan to remind you to support your team. If you enjoyed the good times, then you owe it to yourself and your fellow fans to keep your head up during the bad times. At least you guys have a few SB trophies to brag about. All I have is my passion for a team that hasn't won a d@mn thing since years before I was born. So suck it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Umm Ramsey is better then all the QBs mentioned in the above post besides Brad Johnson and that is comparing a veteran to a 14 game starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Originally posted by Blazers21 Come on now! The Eagles from 1962 - 1977 were absolutely pathetic. They had one winning season (1966, 9-5) and one .500 season in 1974. That's 16 years of futility after winning the championship in 1960. Sure, it was a rough time, but most fans certainly weren't fair-weather enough to drop the team and neither were their kids. Of course, there was an influx of Cowboy bandwagoners, but that happens everywhere. The Philly fans contented themselves with booing Santa Claus, drinking to excess etc. knowing that eventually the cycle would end and the team would at least make a run. They did under Vermeil. I started watching the team in the early '70s as a kid, and lived through those years of futility. The Eagles weren't even competitive in those years. It's no wonder they have a losing record against every other NFC East team. Most if it can be traced right back to that 16 year period where they were winning 2, 3 and 4 games per year. Even Vermeil's first two teams combined to win only 9 games. In '78 they turned it around and made the playoffs. Believe me, some of those 9 wins were as ugly as they come (thanks Giants! ) From 4-10, then 5-9, then 9-7 and the playoffs. Not much improvement was shown in those 2 years to indicate that the third year would lead to a playoff appearance. From an outsider's perspective: many of you have been spoiled by the outright success of the Gibbs years. As someone (maybe Om?) put it: the Redskins don't have some sort of birthright that automatically makes them a respectable, winning franchise every year. Most teams go through periods like this. Some, like the Saints and Cardinals, rarely get out of it. It's a down time for the Redskins right now. If you're a real 'Skins fan, then your kids will follow you by seeing your passion. If you're a bandwagoner, serves you right if your kids end up liking the Cowboys or some other frontrunner (Rams?). I'm sorry, but the Redskins haven't been bad enough long enough to cause this sort of fan-identity crisis. You shouldn't need a godforsaken Eagles fan to remind you to support your team. If you enjoyed the good times, then you owe it to yourself and your fellow fans to keep your head up during the bad times. At least you guys have a few SB trophies to brag about. All I have is my passion for a team that hasn't won a d@mn thing since years before I was born. So suck it up! Post of the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief skin Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I am just ANGRY at the unprofssional manner this franchise is owned and operated. It is embarassing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drex Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Wow, an Eagles fan serves as today's voice of reason Great Post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Blazers, for an Eagle fan you're an ok guy and all, but if we Redskin fans weren't crazy insanely loyal types, I think you'd be posting on an Eagle board right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Blazers Great post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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