Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

We saw that in the Giants game with Sanchez. 

 

Oh, we'll show them that we aren't predictable when backed up...pick 6. And I'd bet that half the guys out there who complain about predictability hated that play-call too. 

Actually I hated the first down predictable run on first down for no yards putting Sanchez in a known passing situation.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Actually I hated the first down predictable run on first down for no yards putting Sanchez in a known passing situation.

That's fair...but the point is that these guys are second-guessed constantly based on results. We want them more aggressive until a game-turning turnover occurs then it's "of course, NOW he chooses to be bold!"

 

You're telling me if that same thing had occurred on first-and-10 in the Giants game, you'd have had no issues with it? I believe you but you would probably concede that you'd be in the minority. 

[Est.1974]

If nothing else, the team should come out fired up and in the Titans face. After all of the adversity of the last month plus, somehow the players still find themselves heading into a very important and meaningful game.

 

If Grudens troops trundle out flat, underprepared, or ill disciplined, that's gonna be a killer for me. 

[Wildbunny]

8 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

If nothing else, the team should come out fired up and in the Titans face. After all of the adversity of the last month plus, somehow the players still find themselves heading into a very important and meaningful game.

 

If Grudens troops trundle out flat, underprepared, or ill disciplined, that's gonna be a killer for me. 

 

I predict that Morgan Moses will get flagged at least once. That's still bothersome when a vet like him keeps on doing the same mistake game in game out.

 

Don't expect much regarding discipline tonite. Since Lauvao and Scherff going down, we've been a mess in that department.

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

That's fair...but the point is that these guys are second-guessed constantly based on results. We want them more aggressive until a game-turning turnover occurs then it's "of course, NOW he chooses to be bold!"

 

You're telling me if that same thing had occurred on first-and-10 in the Giants game, you'd have had no issues with it? I believe you but you would probably concede that you'd be in the minority. 

Actualy I would have given Gruden credit for trying to do something against type.  

 

What drives me crazy is trying the same thing over and by over again knowing it won’t work.  Any attempt to not do the same stupid thing after almost 5 years would be fine with me almost regardless of the results.

8 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

 

I predict that Morgan Moses will get flagged at least once. That's still bothersome when a vet like him keeps on doing the same mistake game in game out.

 

Don't expect much regarding discipline tonite. Since Lauvao and Scherff going down, we've been a mess in that department.

I don’t understand why that hasn’t been corrected by Callahan.  He’s supposedly a good OL coach.

 

I remember going to a training camp practice during Gibbs II and Samuels (I think) jumped off side, and Bugel went absolutely apoplectic. That was in practices.  His reaction drew a reaction from the crowd.

[OVCChairman]

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I don’t generally disagree, and frankly, all of the above is just me BSing.  There is a balance though.  It’s not as cut and dry as I’m making it, but it’s also an issue with numerous variables that makes easy to get wrong.  Even more so when you’re dealing with players you hardly know.  

 

 

Since you pointed out that all your responses were BS, i won't quote them all and respond lol.  

 

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 One example - using AP in shotgun.  That’s not using him to his strengths, right?  But... if you don’t trust your interior oline to pass block, or if your qb is struggling making quick decisions, you now have to weigh the strengths of one player against the strengths of another.

 

Yeah, which makes it far more important to understand your personnel.  AP is better out of the I, or single back look, because he's so good at beating people to the point of attack, and breaking tackles, when he's going down hill.  Running him out of the shotgun mitigates that because he's not attacking north to south to receive the handoff.  That's EXACTLY why you want a guy like that, playing that way.  BECAUSE the O-line is struggling, so it's a greater chance that AP is going to need to do AP things because the line is not going to get a push.  

 

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Thompson running screens is another example.  He generally excels at them, but if your new guards can’t sell/execute the screen plays, do you still call it?

 

So that makes it better to call on 3rd and 100?  What makes Thompson so good is his vision and his ability to make a guy miss.  Another instance where you have a playmaker with the ability to help offset the deficiency.  Mo Harris is not going to make a DB miss on the edge (BTW the lead blocker on that screen was a wounded Trent Williams who was tasked at getting to the edge and blocking the DB that was covering Harris... it didnt work), if that guy is unblocked.. CT can.  He might not be able to, but he CAN.  If your Guard can't get outside well enough to block, Thompson is one of a very few players on our side of the ball who has the ability to make that unblocked player miss.  

 

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Overall, I feel stronger about things like running AP between the tackles on 8/10 first downs and getting less than 3 yards every time.  That stubbornness is more concerning to me.  I’ve defended the stubbornness of running on first down, but you have to make the change earlier than 8/10... like after the third, fourth or fifth attempt.  

 

 

This makes my head explode.  I was SOOOO happy when Jay called a Play Action and hit Doc for 32 on 1st and 10 vs Philly (if i remember correctly).... i couldn't believe it.  The stubbornness is what leads to all of the examples above.  He designs a gameplan in August when we have a full cast of characters, and wonders why that same gameplan struggles in Decembers when we have 23 players on IR.  That doesn't work.   When we have our starting offensive line... Williams / Lava / Roullier / Scherff / Moses, you have enough beef that you can be predictable with your run game, and still be effective because they can get that physical push up front and a lot of the defensive lines can't do anything about it.  When you're on your 4th and 5th guard, that push becomes non-existent because they're not as good as that starting lineup.  

[Wildbunny]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don’t understand why that hasn’t been corrected by Callahan.  He’s supposedly a good OL coach. 

 

I remember going to a training camp practice during Gibbs II and Samuels (I think) jumped off side, and Bugel went absolutely apoplectic. That was in practices.  His reaction drew a reaction from the crowd.

 

You are overestimating what a coach can do. Some players do take coaching good and fast. Some just never get it.

That's like school. I'm pretty sure some of your teachers tried to teach you stuff that you never got. No matter how good or bad they are.

1 minute ago, OVCChairman said:

So that makes it better to call on 3rd and 100?  What makes Thompson so good is his vision and his ability to make a guy miss.

That used to be true, but not really the case this year.

 

He even said it in some interviews this year that he didn't get the results he wanted and that he wasn't able to make guys miss like he used to.

 

Is it due to the injury from last year? Maybe. But Thompson has been disappointing this year regarding that.

[OVCChairman]

23 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

 

You are overestimating what a coach can do. Some players do take coaching good and fast. Some just never get it.

That's like school. I'm pretty sure some of your teachers tried to teach you stuff that you never got. No matter how good or bad they are.

That used to be true, but not really the case this year.

 

He even said it in some interviews this year that he didn't get the results he wanted and that he wasn't able to make guys miss like he used to.

 

Is it due to the injury from last year? Maybe. But Thompson has been disappointing this year regarding that.

 

 

 

OK, than call it to Peterson or Bibbs... The last designed screen I remember Peterson getting he went 60 yards and fumbled at the end vs GB.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

41 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

You are overestimating what a coach can do. Some players do take coaching good and fast. Some just never get it.

That's like school. I'm pretty sure some of your teachers tried to teach you stuff that you never got. No matter how good or bad they are.

This is the NFL.  If the player isn’t coachable not to false start, he shouldn’t be in the NFL.

 

I agree some players can’t be taught.  

 

But I think you’re underestimating what coaching can do also.  I had good teachers and bad teachers, and learned more from the good ones.  I actually took Economics twice, the first time at a community college while I was in HS with a professor who was absolutely horrible, the second time in college (the next year) and I can tell you the second professor was miles better and I learned a ton more.

 

You’re right that at the end of the day it’s up to the student. However the teacher is important too, and better teachers can get ore out of their students than bad teachers.

[skinny21]

41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This is the NFL.  If the player isn’t coachable not to false start, he shouldn’t be in the NFL.

 

I agree some players can’t be taught.  

 

 

You’re right that at the end of the day it’s up to the student. However the teacher is important too, and better teachers can get ore out of their students than bad teachers.

So here’s an interesting point (IMO)...

Callahan is widely viewed as a good teacher.  Moses can’t stop moving pre-snap.  Our FO gave Moses a significant extension.  Bruce Allen is known to have quite an ego and there are reports of the FO meddling in decisions of who plays...

 

So who is to blame for Moses consistently drawing false start penalties?

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Actualy I would have given Gruden credit for trying to do something against type.  

 

What drives me crazy is trying the same thing over and by over again knowing it won’t work.  Any attempt to not do the same stupid thing after almost 5 years would be fine with me almost regardless of the results.

 

 

But here's my thing - and it's probably a conversation for a different thread - the conservative/make few mistakes approach HAD BEEN WORKING. With very little offense but also playing keep away, this team was winning 2 out of every 3 games. They had 7 turnovers in their first 9 games (6-3) and have had 9 already in their next 5 (1-4). What was working for them a lot in September and October was not putting the D in bad positions and not giving away points when the O was on the field.  

 

So, on a micro-level, sure, the no-yard run for AP isn't "working" but on the macro-level, maybe it was part of an overall philosophy that fit this team. 

 

I know this, I'd much rather have Tress Way punting out of our end zone than Sanchez throwing it to the defense for a pick-6. 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Since you pointed out that all your responses were BS, i won't quote them all and respond lol.  

Haha, fair enough.  To be clear, it’s not so much that I felt my responses were BS (though they could be, lol), but that I could make up a defense of most play calls.  There are certain calls that are indefensible though - a reverse at the edge of field goal position (with the risk of getting knocked out of range) is a bad call, for example.  

Quote

 

 

Yeah, which makes it far more important to understand your personnel.  AP is better out of the I, or single back look, because he's so good at beating people to the point of attack, and breaking tackles, when he's going down hill.  Running him out of the shotgun mitigates that because he's not attacking north to south to receive the handoff.  That's EXACTLY why you want a guy like that, playing that way.  BECAUSE the O-line is struggling, so it's a greater chance that AP is going to need to do AP things because the line is not going to get a push.  

Right, that was my point - do you run AP to his strengths (out of the I) even though you didn’t practice much with a FB (and don’t have a good one), or do you play to your qbs strengths (or at least try to mitigate your qb’s - or oline’s - weakness)... 

Quote

 

 

So that makes it better to call on 3rd and 100?  What makes Thompson so good is his vision and his ability to make a guy miss.  Another instance where you have a playmaker with the ability to help offset the deficiency.  Mo Harris is not going to make a DB miss on the edge (BTW the lead blocker on that screen was a wounded Trent Williams who was tasked at getting to the edge and blocking the DB that was covering Harris... it didnt work), if that guy is unblocked.. CT can.  He might not be able to, but he CAN.  If your Guard can't get outside well enough to block, Thompson is one of a very few players on our side of the ball who has the ability to make that unblocked player miss.  

 

 

 

This makes my head explode.  I was SOOOO happy when Jay called a Play Action and hit Doc for 32 on 1st and 10 vs Philly (if i remember correctly).... i couldn't believe it.  The stubbornness is what leads to all of the examples above.  He designs a gameplan in August when we have a full cast of characters, and wonders why that same gameplan struggles in Decembers when we have 23 players on IR.  That doesn't work.   When we have our starting offensive line... Williams / Lava / Roullier / Scherff / Moses, you have enough beef that you can be predictable with your run game, and still be effective because they can get that physical push up front and a lot of the defensive lines can't do anything about it.  When you're on your 4th and 5th guard, that push becomes non-existent because they're not as good as that starting lineup.  

Right, so you call a pass play and risk taking a sack due to a weakness with your pass pro on the inside.  Then you’re in 2nd and long, can’t afford to run the ball and so your playbook is now cut in half.  Then everyone is screaming at you for throwing 3 times in a row, not bleeding the clock, and putting the burden on you’re deficient pass game.  

 

To be honest with you, it’s not that I disagree with you, it’s that our offense is so poor in general that I feel like Gruden is almost damned no matter what he does.  I think he deserves part of the blame, but my general point is... how much?   

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

 

OK, than call it to Peterson or Bibbs... The last designed screen I remember Peterson getting he went 60 yards and fumbled at the end vs GB.  

No offense, but I think you’re employing  selective memory then.  Our screen game has been pathetic since Scherff went down.  I do think they should keep trying though.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

24 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

But here's my thing - and it's probably a conversation for a different thread - the conservative/make few mistakes approach HAD BEEN WORKING. With very little offense but also playing keep away, this team was winning 2 out of every 3 games. They had 7 turnovers in their first 9 games (6-3) and have had 9 already in their next 5 (1-4). What was working for them a lot in September and October was not putting the D in bad positions and not giving away points when the O was on the field.  

 

So, on a micro-level, sure, the no-yard run for AP isn't "working" but on the macro-level, maybe it was part of an overall philosophy that fit this team. 

 

I know this, I'd much rather have Tress Way punting out of our end zone than Sanchez throwing it to the defense for a pick-6. 

It was only working when the other offense was horrible.  When we played either average or good offenses, we were blown out.

 

Essentially, as long as the opponent was bad enough to beat themselves, we would let them, but we couldn’t beat anybody ourselves.  

 

Colts, Saints and Falcons all had their way with us before the injuries started to pile up. 

34 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

So here’s an interesting point (IMO)...

Callahan is widely viewed as a good teacher.  Moses can’t stop moving pre-snap.  Our FO gave Moses a significant extension.  Bruce Allen is known to have quite an ego and there are reports of the FO meddling in decisions of who plays...

 

So who is to blame for Moses consistently drawing false start penalties?

 

 

Everyone. 

 

Though it could just be that they like enough of what Moses does they can live with the false starts...

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This is the NFL.  If the player isn’t coachable not to false start, he shouldn’t be in the NFL.

 

I agree some players can’t be taught.  

 

But I think you’re underestimating what coaching can do also.  I had good teachers and bad teachers, and learned more from the good ones.  I actually took Economics twice, the first time at a community college while I was in HS with a professor who was absolutely horrible, the second time in college (the next year) and I can tell you the second professor was miles better and I learned a ton more.

 

You’re right that at the end of the day it’s up to the student. However the teacher is important too, and better teachers can get ore out of their students than bad teachers.

I agree with you regarding good/bad teachers. That is definately important as well, obviously.

I went with some good and bad ones as well at school, as I believe everybody around can tell you.

 

But there's still stuff that I never get right, no matter what.

 

My point was more about Moses grabbing this simple thing. Which is disturbing. Now does this guy belong in the NFL? Probably not at a starting level with what he's shown lately.

He was playing at a high level prior to that huge contract we gaved him. And he's been disappointing, and often injured since then.

 

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

 

OK, than call it to Peterson or Bibbs... The last designed screen I remember Peterson getting he went 60 yards and fumbled at the end vs GB.  

My point was more about your point about CT's qualities and the fact that I found him to be a bit disappointing as well lately.

 

As a whole, vets have been disappointing this year. Starting with Zach Brown. Youngsters are promising, and that's good, but I expected more from some guys.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It was only working when the other offense was horrible.  When we played either average or good offenses, we were blown out.

 

Essentially, as long as the opponent was bad enough to beat themselves, we would let them, but we couldn’t beat anybody ourselves.  

 

Colts, Saints and Falcons all had their way with us before the injuries started to pile up. 

 

 

Well that is fine...my point isn't that we were Super Bowl bound, rather that with the limitations we have in personnel (QB and WR specifically) that was our chance this year to win games. The same teams we BEAT doing that, beat us when we started throwing all over the place and turning the ball over. And, yes, some of those wins were dependent on the defense making plays when we put them in good positions to do so. 

 

The fact is, we aren't aggressive play-calling away from being able to score with the Saints and Falcons...we don't have the horses for that. 

[Burgold]

Here’s something I don’t completely get. Jay Gruden is touted for his play design. How many times have we heard that his schemes get players open?

 

Yet how many invisible games did Garçon have? Has any receiver been schemed open this year? For all that I hear that Jay is great at play design it rarely shows up on the field... especially this year. 

 

Compare how how often opponents throw to wide open and uncovered receivers? We know Reed and Thompson can get open, but they can’t this year. 

 

With all all the players stacking the box and daring us to pass you’d think someone would break open occasionally. 

 

So, I’m not sure if his play design is a strength or not. His play calling has been widely criticized. Is his design over predictable too at this point?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

@Burgold I think that's anecdotal at best...I can remember a ton of plays where Docston or Davis were on the seam or down the sideline only to have Smith make a bad throw (Docston) or us to see a drop (Davis). That's only when we had Smith in there...it's tough to know how many times we have guys breaking open and QBs 3-4 haven't seen them. 

 

I do remember listening to Cooley's breakdown of Johnson (can't remember if it was his start last week or the 2nd half the week before) and he mentioned on a nice play where we got 10-15 yards Johnson had Doctson wide open for 30 at least, and possibly a TD.

 

There's a lot that is execution-dependent when it comes to that. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

26 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

I agree with you regarding good/bad teachers. That is definately important as well, obviously.

I went with some good and bad ones as well at school, as I believe everybody around can tell you.

 

But there's still stuff that I never get right, no matter what.

 

My point was more about Moses grabbing this simple thing. Which is disturbing. Now does this guy belong in the NFL? Probably not at a starting level with what he's shown lately.

He was playing at a high level prior to that huge contract we gaved him. And he's been disappointing, and often injured since then.

 

My point was more about your point about CT's qualities and the fact that I found him to be a bit disappointing as well lately.

 

As a whole, vets have been disappointing this year. Starting with Zach Brown. Youngsters are promising, and that's good, but I expected more from some guys.

 

Oh, I think Moses is easily NFL-caliber and I'd argue he's starting-caliber on probably half the teams in the league when it comes to his skill set. I also think coaching matters, but I don't put technique or discipline issues on the head coach necessarily. If our OL is holding or our DBs are interfering or our QBs are missing open receivers...that would seem to be more a function of POSITION coaches, not Gruden. 

[OVCChairman]

14 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Haha, fair enough.  To be clear, it’s not so much that I felt my responses were BS (though they could be, lol), but that I could make up a defense of most play calls.  There are certain calls that are indefensible though - a reverse at the edge of field goal position (with the risk of getting knocked out of range) is a bad call, for example.  

 

 

 

To be honest with you, it’s not that I disagree with you, it’s that our offense is so poor in general that I feel like Gruden is almost damned no matter what he does.  I think he deserves part of the blame, but my general point is... how much?   

 

 

 

Of course you can find a way to justify either side, which is why this conversation is what it is, and it's why we're all here.  If we all agreed this would be a REALLY boring message board.  I'll freely admit that I do not think highly about how Gruden has been as our HC, therefore the things that I personally disagree with are going to be highlighted and stand out to me more and more as time goes on.  That's human nature.  I actually, until about a year ago, was big on Gruden and was a supporter of his... but more and more i've come to grow frustrated with what i'm seeing.  I will assure you as well that I'm not the type that HATES every play Gruden calls, or every decision he makes.  If he makes a playcall that I think highly of, i'll point it out and admit to it.  The play action to Doctson on 1st down vs Philly that I referenced earlier.  The bootleg to Sanchez that got us out from under our goalpost in the same game.  

 

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Right, that was my point - do you run AP to his strengths (out of the I) even though you didn’t practice much with a FB (and don’t have a good one), or do you play to your qbs strengths (or at least try to mitigate your qb’s - or oline’s - weakness)... 

 

But what is more playing to strengths?  Getting AP the ball heading down hill looking forward so he can analyze the line, or making him step right to receive the handoff and THEN get moving forward?  Even if you run out of a single back set with the QB under center. 

 

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Right, so you call a pass play and risk taking a sack due to a weakness with your pass pro on the inside.  Then you’re in 2nd and long, can’t afford to run the ball and so your playbook is now cut in half.  Then everyone is screaming at you for throwing 3 times in a row, not bleeding the clock, and putting the burden on you’re deficient pass game.  

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be a pass.  it can still be a run, but do it out of a different look.  Maybe to a toss outside or a sweep.  ESPECIALLY as the game goes on, get the D-lineman moving side to side and wear them down as the game goes on.  Swing passes, play action boots, sprinkle quick passes that get the ball out fast.  It's not a perfect science bud, I get that.  I don't disagree with EVERY call we make... my issue is there are a handful that I just put my hand on my head and ask 'why?'.

 

 

To be fair, Gruden did not lose the game vs Houston either.  I think the play call was correct and i applaud him for taking the chance.  PI should have been called... had it been called correctly, we likely kick that FG, win that game and are now talking about KEEPING our playoff position instead of chasing one. 

 

 

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No offense, but I think you’re employing  selective memory then.  Our screen game has been pathetic since Scherff went down.  I do think they should keep trying though.  

 

Regarding the screens (specifically to RBs), I dont' remember us attempting a screen since Scherff went down in a realistic down and distance.... not when it's 3rd and un-manageable.  I could very well be wrong and if i am, i'll admit it.  I don't have all-22 so i don't know how I can go back and look, or tell by a play by play, because they don't specifically distinguish a 'screen' vs 'pass left / right.' 

 

I also assure you i'll never take offense about a conversation like this... unless it goes there, and it's been A LOONNGG time since anyone got me offended on here, so i'm not going to get wound up I assure you.  If i'm wrong, I'm wrong and i'll admit that.  We all have the right to change our mind based on evidence and conversations.  I'll tell you right now, if Gruden some how finds a way to win games for us and ultimately lead us to the promised land, I will freely eat crow and I'll root for it the whole way.  Sustained winning, ultimately resulting in playoff success, is the ultimate goal, my concern and point with it all is that I don't think Gruden has it in him... and his track record to this point would support that concern.  I'm just trying to figure out why that is.  

 

ALL of this all said... Gruden needs to be smarter than the two of us.  I am not in that meeting room, i am not doing film study, and I don't know every last detail about WHY or HOW a play was called.  He does, and a good coach makes a lot more of the 'right' calls than they do the 'wrong' ones.  I see a lot of them that I see as the 'wrong' ones which is where my problem is.  He needs to be a better football mind than the vast majority of the people sitting here typing on a message board.  

[randyjohnson]

I know I’m going to get killed for this but my plan would be to get rid of Allen an Williams first. Then make Smith GM, allow him to decide on head coach, I like Jay not sure he can be evaluated fairly with the decision makers he’s been forced to deal with. I would strongly urge him to replace DC with Head coach of Jets or Packers DC if he’s released. Just my two cents

[OVCChairman]

4 minutes ago, randyjohnson said:

I know I’m going to get killed for this but my plan would be to get rid of Allen an Williams first. Then make Smith GM, allow him to decide on head coach, I like Jay not sure he can be evaluated fairly with the decision makers he’s been forced to deal with. I would strongly urge him to replace DC with Head coach of Jets or Packers DC if he’s released. Just my two cents

 

 

Why would you get killed for that?  That's a very common belief on here... 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

18 minutes ago, randyjohnson said:

I know I’m going to get killed for this but my plan would be to get rid of Allen an Williams first. Then make Smith GM, allow him to decide on head coach, I like Jay not sure he can be evaluated fairly with the decision makers he’s been forced to deal with. I would strongly urge him to replace DC with Head coach of Jets or Packers DC if he’s released. Just my two cents

 

I would love that plan of attack. You might get killed for it, but only if Allen or Snyder have accounts on here. 

[skinny21]

Good post @OVCChairman 

 

I’m probably not far off from your stance.  My positivity (or whatever you might call it) is less because I trust/have faith in Gruden, but more of a reaction to the certainty of certain negative stances.  

 

If someone came out and said “I’m not sure Gruden is a good motivator”, I’d probably respond that I have the same concerns.  If someone said “he can’t motivate the team at all“, I’d probably argue with them, lol.  

 

 

Here’s a more general point (not directed at you)... if this offense wasn't hit quite so hard by major injuries on the year, I think most would say we’d be more likely to be about 9-5, right?  

So now say we had McVay as our coach and Phillips as the D coordinator.   Assuming Gruden is as bad as some make him out to be, that’s got to be good for a couple more wins at least, right?  

If that’s all true, aren’t we forced to conclude that our roster is at least as good as the Rams roster?  Aren’t we forced to conclude that our FO is at least as good as the Rams FO?

 

Look at the Packers.  They have a franchise qb, yet they’re far worse than us this year.  Are their injuries worse?  I highly doubt it.  So is it because McCarthy was somehow a worse coach than Gruden?  His record should tell us no, that’s not the case. Is it because they have a poor FO?  Maybe, but poorer than ours?  That seems questionable to say the least.  

 

So, my overall point is that there are numerous factors at play here.  Situations are all different, blame can go to health, schedule, the FO’s role in roster construction - lack of blue chip players, proper depth or franchise qbs, etc., and/or poor coaching.  I think back to the thread(s?) on talent vs coaching.  I believe coaching can make a difference, absolutely, but that talent is way more than half the battle.  I think some people are too caught up in the coaching side of things.  I also think that the subjectivity of grading a coach means that if people are coming at it with a biased perspective (fed up with this team), they’re more likely to lambast the coach... in general and for each specific thing that goes wrong.  

 

Sidenote - there’s a poster on here that calls out Manusky every single time the offense makes any sort of positive gain on our D.  Yet, they’ll also (I’m pretty sure) complain about how bad Dix is.  Complain about our young corners, complain about Smith not getting more sacks, about Kerrigan disappearing for long stretches, about our ILBs in the run game and how Foster can’t get to the outside in coverage.  With poor personnel and a horrible coach... why aren’t we one of the worst defenses in the league?  

 

Blah, I’m babbling... I’ve always been a fence sitting, Devil’s Advocate that instinctively goes against extreme takes, so take all I say with a grain of salt, lol.  Joining Extremeskins was like a mix of ‘self imposed waterboarding’ and ‘kid in a candy store’ for me.

 

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

@Burgold I think that's anecdotal at best...I can remember a ton of plays where Docston or Davis were on the seam or down the sideline only to have Smith make a bad throw (Docston) or us to see a drop (Davis). That's only when we had Smith in there...it's tough to know how many times we have guys breaking open and QBs 3-4 haven't seen them. 

 

I do remember listening to Cooley's breakdown of Johnson (can't remember if it was his start last week or the 2nd half the week before) and he mentioned on a nice play where we got 10-15 yards Johnson had Doctson wide open for 30 at least, and possibly a TD.

 

There's a lot that is execution-dependent when it comes to that. 

Completely fair. There's also a recency effect at risk. If a QB misses a throw or a running back misses a hole or a wide receiver makes a bad decision on a choice route is that on the play caller or the play designer? Still... I have to imagine that the lack of receivers finding openings over the course of an entire season (under three different QBs) has to speak a failure in play design, player execution, and play calling.

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Completely fair. There's also a recency effect at risk. If a QB misses a throw or a running back misses a hole or a wide receiver makes a bad decision on a choice route is that on the play caller or the play designer? Still... I have to imagine that the lack of receivers finding openings over the course of an entire season (under three different QBs) has to speak a failure in play design, player execution, and play calling.

Given our subpar qb play and our relatively poor (and oft-injured) receivers... I’m going with Occam’s Razor.  

 

BTW, my opinion partially solidified on this on McCoy’s pass to Reed in the EZ.  This offense has felt like it’s a chore to move the ball and make nice plays all year.  When we get a knowledgeable (scheme experienced) guy in throwing to a good, experienced target... we get a wide open, effortless TD.