twa Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 you must have a different interpretation of their duties Yusuf. I do not believe it is a job, though it certainly obligates....with more responsibility comes more ......... I do admit to being old school From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. add I'm curious , do you think church leaders answer to just: themselves the church or to God going along just to get along gets harder to justify the further down the list ya get.....naturally I think I answer to all of the above that I align myself with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Hey, it works great for a least some politicians...unless you actually believe that none of them (regardless of party) are lying about their faith to avoid being in essence disqualified by the voting public. As long as you don't know and you agree with their voting record, who cares? Same deal for the pastor who may be struggling with belief or who has abandoned it altogether. Besides, if God is as compassionate as you all say, I don't think the innocent will lose any heaven brownie points as a result. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 speaking of politicians.....if ya lay down with dogs,don't be surprised to get fleas. I believe in a tough love God.....I don't think "go and sin some more" was the phrase used with forgiveness granted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 One of the biggest trends we're seeing in the church is the ability to struggle rather than feigning certainty, however Gen-Xers are about the youngest generation that can handle pastors who themselves struggle. Do you think Gen-X struggles with commitment? The ability to entertain ideas is certainly admirable and valuable,the inability to discern the different values of them is not. of course hardheaded and hearted is not admirable either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 That seems excessive ...... where would you say the line between entertaining doubt and active deceit lies?I don't think there is a line. More over, I think different aspects of faith/beliefs/doubts can reside in different parts of the brain. For example, faith can be a self-image type of thing that lives independently of actual beliefs/doubts/etc. if you realize you no longer believe something that must be affirmed in your position are you not culpable if you continue?I think self-image changes last, so you can actually lose faith way before you realize that you're not a man of faith any longer. And when you do, you would also realize that you've been deceiving yourself and other people... Caught in the pulpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 One of the biggest trends we're seeing in the church is the ability to struggle rather than feigning certainty, however Gen-Xers are about the youngest generation that can handle pastors who themselves struggle. To me, pastors who struggle are more real than those pastors you see (especially those televangelists-that's why I like Olsteen. He seems humble) who act like they don't question anything, everything is perfect, and if you have doubts- you're a terrible person. I can relate 100% more with the pastor who can honestly say they don't have an answer to something, or who does have doubts, than someone like who I described above. Not only can I relate to them, I can respect them as a person AND for their beliefs. Some things, we just don't have answers for. When it comes to religion, and the pastors we rely on to not only teach us but help guide us, I'd much rather have a person who is humble enough to say they honestly "just don't know", instead of making me feel bad or acting like they're holier than thou (literally) JUST because they're a "pastor". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I don't think there is a line. You also don't think there is a God .....if you do there would seem to be a line somewhere I do agree you can deceive yourself, doing so is not another's fault or burden though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 You also don't think there is a God .....if you do there would seem to be a line somewhere I do agree you can deceive yourself, doing so is not another's fault or burden though. When talking about believing and not believing, we are talking about different brain states. Brain is not a digital computer, so there is no clear line where one state becomes another state.I think that turning away from people who lose faith because they lost faith (and maybe because they did not disclose it as timely as they could have) is a moral failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 certainly turning away is,but those feeling deceived are only human too. imperfect critters,one and all....no matter the brain division surely your solution is not to simply let them continue as if nothing changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I am starting a thread tomorrow on the herd mentality. Following those who have issues greater than your own. Be it a pastor or a financial adviser who have issues that are greater than your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 certainly turning away is,but those feeling deceived are only human too. imperfect critters,one and all....no matter the brain division surely your solution is not to simply let them continue as if nothing changed? You know my solution... Education, reason, rationality. Brain matters and it doesn't come with a manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 You know my solution... Education, reason, rationality. Brain matters and it doesn't come with a manual. you think the people involved lack these things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 you think the people involved lack these things? Don't know about you but I think with my heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 When talking about believing and not believing, we are talking about different brain states. Brain is not a digital computer, so there is no clear line where one state becomes another state. I think that turning away from people who lose faith because they lost faith (and maybe because they did not disclose it as timely as they could have) is a moral failure. Alexey, you seem to like to draw lines when its convenient to you. You're not very consistent except in your personal subjectivism.As far as the turning away, a Christian spouse should not abandon such a person. Nor should the church, unless the "fallen" person is actively preaching against belief in God etc. Unbelief if no different than any other sin in that context. Whether it be adultery, forrnication, homosexuality, pornography, drunkard, thievery etc. , if a person is struggling to come out of it or to turn away from it, they should be welcomed. If they are active and/or open in their sin, and persist, and are a member, then discipline (corrective not punitive) should be taken as much as is possible. Membership has its privileges, and it has its accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 Alexey, you seem to like to draw lines when its convenient to you. You're not very consistent except in your personal subjectivism.I think we can "draw lines" when comparing two distinct brian states. However, it is difficult to say exactly when the brain transitions from one state into another.This comment sounds like a zinger... but I am not sure what you are talking about. Where am I being inconsistent? As far as the turning away, a Christian spouse should not abandon such a person. Nor should the church, unless the "fallen" person is actively preaching against belief in God etc. Unbelief if no different than any other sin in that context. Whether it be adultery, forrnication, homosexuality, pornography, drunkard, thievery etc. , if a person is struggling to come out of it or to turn away from it, they should be welcomed. If they are active and/or open in their sin, and persist, and are a member, then discipline (corrective not punitive) should be taken as much as is possible. Membership has its privileges, and it has its accountability.Equating non-belief with thievery, that's real nice. Another example of religion screwing up your moral compass. Must keep people in check, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Do you think Gen-X struggles with commitment? I think most Gen Xers are used to dealing with uncertainty and are ok with uncertainty in their lives, whereas most Boomers+ are Enlightenment products and resist uncertainty. As such for a Boomer to place his/her faith in something then they need higher levels of certainty in that thing, unlike Gen Xers and younger who are typically more Postmodern and are far more comfortable with experiential reletavism. alexey, reminds me more and more of an Fundamentalist preacher every day, certain in his unbelief, unwavering in his articles of faith. The ability to entertain ideas is certainly admirable and valuable,the inability to discern the different values of them is not.But what you and other Modernists demand is typically universal discernment, and for Postmoderns that is something they cannot do given their understanding of experiential relativism. of course hardheaded and hearted is not admirable eitherWhich all too frequently is what certainty leads to....read alexey. LoL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Sun revolves around the Earth and THAT IS THAT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 ... alexey, reminds me more and more of an Fundamentalist preacher every day, certain in his unbelief, unwavering in his articles of faith. ... Which all too frequently is what certainty leads to....read alexey. LoL! I invite you to explore differences beween faith and justified confidence, religion and reason, revealed and discovered knowledge, dogmatism and free thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I invite you to explore differences beween faith and justified confidence, religion and reason, revealed and discovered knowledge, dogmatism and free thought.LoL! I will if you do.Seriously you act like there can be no free thinking or reason by those who have faith in God, and that sir is your blind spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 LoL! I will if you do. Seriously you act like there can be no free thinking or reason by those who have faith in God, and that sir is your blind spot. I view faith in god as more of a self identity type thing that can be kept intact while free thinking and reason take place elsewhere in the brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I think we can "draw lines" when comparing two distinct brian states. However, it is difficult to say exactly when the brain transitions from one state into another. This comment sounds like a zinger... but I am not sure what you are talking about. Where am I being inconsistent? Equating non-belief with thievery, that's real nice. Another example of religion screwing up your moral compass. Must keep people in check, right? Nice dodge. Its why I used the words "in that context". But since you need further explanation, the context is sin in general. The nature of the sin is irrelevant to the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I view faith in god as more of a self identity type thing that can be kept intact while free thinking and reason take place elsewhere in the brain. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 Nice dodge. Its why I used the words "in that context". But since you need further explanation, the context is sin in general. The nature of the sin is irrelevant to the conversation.I am trying to be as consistent and open/clear as I can. Please share any thoughts you may have to help me become more consistent and more open/clear.Nature of sin seems directly related to the topic of the thread - problems faced by preachers who lose faith. I was arguing that preachers who lose faith need support and acceptance in their communities. Then you came in and equated loss of faith to thievery. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.Yes faith is reinforcement of wishful thinking, conviction without evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I am trying to be as consistent and open/clear as I can. Please share any thoughts you may have to help me become more consistent and more open/clear. Nature of sin seems directly related to the topic of the thread - problems faced by preachers who lose faith. I was arguing that preachers who lose faith need support and acceptance in their communities. Then you came in and equated loss of faith to thievery. Yes faith is reinforcement of wishful thinking, conviction without evidence. They need support no doubt if they are struggling with it, but they probably also need to step down. How can a man lead spiritually if he has no belief? In that sense, it is no different than thievery. The thief who is repentant and turning from his "trade" should be morally supported as well. But if he persists in his stealing, he should face consequences accordingly. Again, consequences are not necessarily punitive either (I'm sure you will conveniently ignore that). Likewise, if a pastor is struggling with doubt and unbelief, and striving to overcome, he should be built up with love and compassion. If he is leading others into unbelief and actively fostering doubt, he's got to go. But, paint things anyway you want, we all know you have an axe to grind with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 ^^^Yup. There it is. Good point. I'm writing my letter of resignation to the Catholic Church today. Thanks, Alexey! You're not arguing "preachers who lose faith need support and acceptance in their communities". Let's be clear, all you do and ever do in threads like this is peddle your "Religion is Crap" beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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