HTTR24-7; A Crash Course In The Pistol Formation, West Coast Offense, and RG3 as a Passer

[darrelgreenie]

No we're not. We're talking about the zone read offense in conjunction with the WCO being called the "pistol offense".

It applies to the Redskins, certainly, but it's not the only application that makes sense or holds true.

Oh? You're gonna tell me what Mahons, LL and myself were talking about now?

Sweet. What else am I talking about?

[KDawg]

No? Wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

[KCClybun]

This argument is pretty stupid and petty.

You guys want to argue? Argue about it on Twitter. But I'd appreciate it if this thread didn't turn into a semantics cluster****.

Shanny called it the East Coast Offense, that's what I'm gonna call it. If you disagree, great. You don't have to be a jerk about it.

[Mahons21]

The pistol part was a new wrinkle, which certainly added layers to the equation. But the concepts of the zone read and the west coast offense had been married together before.

I see, but they have been married together in the same plays before, not just the same offense. IE a read-option play, where the QB can keep/hand-off/variety of passing route options not just a bubble screen?

Again this is curiosity, not trying to be smart with ya.

[Lavarleap56]

I see, but they have been married together in the same plays before, not just the same offense. IE a read-option play, where the QB can keep/hand-off/variety of passing route options not just a bubble screen?

Again this is curiosity, not trying to be smart with ya.

Yes, teams like Oklahoma State, Baylor, West Virginia etc have been using packaged plays like that for a few years.

Peyton Manning was running his version of these concepts with the colts, no run threat but the PA pull pass element. Green Bay was probably the first NFL team I saw come closest to running RO package plays without actually running the zone read, mimicked everything but QB keep.

[Mahons21]

Yes, teams like Oklahoma State, Baylor, West Virginia etc have been using packaged plays like that for a few years.

Peyton Manning was running his version of these concepts with the colts, no run threat but the PA pull pass element. Green Bay was probably the first NFL team I saw come closest to running RO package plays without actually running the zone read, mimicked everything but QB keep.

No kidding, I was obviously unaware. Thanks for taking the time to educate, I truly do appreciate it. Your knowledge of the history of the game never ceases to amaze me.

[darrelgreenie]

Mahon's or anyone interested in a couple good reads on the 'packaged play' concept:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8287610/packaged-plays-rethinking-concept-modern-play-calling

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8631595/the-success-chip-kelly-oregon-ducks-offense-more-familiar-seems

---------- Post added May-16th-2013 at 04:20 PM ----------

+ 1 (Redskins specific article)

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/36841/back-to-school-how-mike-shanahan-is-using-rg3s-college-offense-with-the-redskins

[Mahons21]

Thanks DG.

[Lavarleap56]

No kidding, I was obviously unaware. Thanks for taking the time to educate, I truly do appreciate it. Your knowledge of the history of the game never ceases to amaze me.

Should say no QB run threat for manning. I would say a few teams dipped their toe in the pool but Skins were first to jump in it fully. Made sense for the skins since it was different ways to do stuff they've been doing for awhile.

[Mahons21]

Should say no QB run threat for manning. I would say a few teams dipped their toe in the pool but Skins were first to jump in it fully. Made sense for the skins since it was different ways to do stuff they've been doing for awhile.

True, and it allows the QB to remain facing the defense (which I would assume makes reads much easier), taking away the big risk/flaw of the traditional Shanny O where the QB has to turn his back to D. A solid upgrade I'd say.

And I think it goes without saying that Manning is not a running threat lol, my favorite QB of all time, but watching him attempt to run is pathetic. Gorgeous footwork for a QB and inside the pocket, but I don't think he was ever taught to actually run.

[darrelgreenie]

You gotta give a tip of the cap to (Mike McCoy) Broncos and (Cam Newton) Panthers they served as launching points and were part of Kyle's research. (along w/ Vince Young's Titans)

Even earlier but rarely mentioned was Chan Gailey's KC Offense with Tyler Thigpen which featured the Pistol formation.

[Lavarleap56]

You gotta give a tip of the cap to (Mike McCoy) Broncos and (Cam Newton) Panthers they served as launching points and were part of Kyle's research. (along w/ Vince Young's Titans)

Even earlier but rarely mentioned was Chan Gailey's KC Offense with Tyler Thigpen which featured the Pistol formation.

Yeah but I don't think they were running package plays like we were discussing.. Not 100% sure on that tho.

[darrelgreenie]

Yeah but I don't think they were running package plays like we were discussing.. Not 100% sure on that tho.

Right on, I wasn't speaking to the packaged play aspect specifically, I don't know if those offense used them either (i would suspect the Panthers are more likely to have used PP then the Broncos, b/c Chudz borrowed straight from Malzahn/Auburn). But, when it comes to building read-option concepts into an NFL offense those offenses bear mentioning and are often over looked.

I was one of the few that enjoyed watching the Broncos during their playoff run.

Cam rookie season was an absolute tour de force that I hadn't seen from a QB before.

I still marvel that Chan Gailey of all people was able to create an offense around their 3rd string QB on the fly during the season.

[elkabong82]

I don't think we should run pistol formation. Being DC's team it might promote violence. Same with shotgun, no more of that. Let's run wizard formation so Niles Paul can have an excuse for his hands disappearing.

[Than-Q]

I don't think we should run pistol formation. Being DC's team it might promote violence. Same with shotgun, no more of that. Let's run wizard formation so Niles Paul can have an excuse for his hands disappearing.

Ladies and gentlemen, the ghost of Abe Pollin is here.

[darrelgreenie]

I have a tendency to be pretty much tunnel vision, looking for a football x's and o's fix when im on this forum. But, I gotta admit:

.... Let's run wizard formation so Niles Paul can have an excuse for his hands disappearing.

was pretty funny.

[KDawg]

I see, but they have been married together in the same plays before, not just the same offense. IE a read-option play, where the QB can keep/hand-off/variety of passing route options not just a bubble screen?

Again this is curiosity, not trying to be smart with ya.

Sorry, I had a JV track meet last night that went until 9:30...

The answer to your question depends on how technical you want to get. Technically speaking, all options are read options.

For instance, the halfback option pass is essentially what teams were using before the quarterback position became much more athletic. Homer Woodson Hargiss at the College of Emporia first employed the play in 1910.

Nebraska, among others, employed the speed option pass.

More importantly, and to the topic of the thread, RG3 actually ran read option plays at Baylor.

The Zone Read Bubble has been run by West Virginia and Tulsa (Herb Hand) in the past.

The CFL (Montreal) has been running the quadruple option for a few years as well.

We've also seen the zone-read triple option (with no pass option). The first read is your basic zone read, so it's the backside DE. The second is the force player coming down hill on the quarterback. A receiver or backside running back in an arc motion or quick release goes backside with the QB, clouding the read for the defender. The play should create two different two on one opportunities for the offense on the backside. Urban Meyer added that wrinkle in Utah. Although, he may have had it at Bowling Green, I'm not quite sure.

[Mahons21]

Sorry, I had a JV track meet last night that went until 9:30...

It's cool. Just don't let it happen again.

LL took over for you and gave some examples in college.

I had known that college used the zone-read, coupled with bubble screens but had no idea College's were using WCO principals and zone-read principals on the same play. I thought that next level was something new that we had brought to the "pistol offense".

I do appreciate you taking the time to come back and answer the question though, enjoy your weekend pal.

[Jethrodsp]

I don't think we should run pistol formation. Being DC's team it might promote violence. Same with shotgun, no more of that. Let's run wizard formation so Niles Paul can have an excuse for his hands disappearing.

Well done sir.

[98ORAKPO98]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000107007/article/robert-griffin-iii-triggers-washington-redskins-pistol-offense Robert Griffin III

triggers Washington Redskins' pistol offense

 

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/27/3792740/pistol-offense-nfl-redskins-rg3 The future is already here, How the Pistol Offense is changing the NFL

 

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2134885550001/the-pistol-offense-the-latest-trend-in-football/  Former University of Nevada head coach Chris Ault on the development of the offensive scheme.

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-gameday/0ap2000000128496/How-to-read-the-zone-read-option How to read the zone-read option

[98ORAKPO98]

http://blog.redskins.com/2012/12/07/paulsen-new-offense-was-culture-shock/  Paulsen: New Offense Was 'Culture Shock'

[98ORAKPO98]

http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/point-counterpoint-how-much-change-o Point-Counterpoint: How much change on O?

[98ORAKPO98]

Is it possible that Mike and Kyle could tag their offense as the East Coast Offense?

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/10/18/redskins-east-coast-offense-remains-a-work-in-progress/

 

“Every place I have been, everybody says, ‘What do you call this offense?’ [ESPN columnist] Rick Reilly had asked me and he wanted a name, so I said, ‘Call it the east Coast Offense.’ I get tired of answering the question, to be honest with you. I’m not sure what the name of the offense is, but we’re just experimenting with what Robert can do, and we are having fun with it. Hopefully we can keep executing.”

[Hubbs]

NLC, one thing you hit on in your original article in the OP is something that's been driving me crazy for the past year: the sheer number of people (usually non-Redskins fans) who can't seem to figure out that the pistol formation and the zone-read option have virtually nothing to do with each other. One's a formation, the other is a play that can be run out of multiple sets. We just happen to run the play out of the pistol quite often (and there's a reason for that, it maximizes the offense's advantages). I feel like we need to start a public awareness campaign or something.

[Oldfan]

If we're going to be fussy about it, the Pistol isn't an offense and it's not a single formation either. The term only tells us where the QB and RB set up in a variety of formations. 

 

When all advantage and disadvantages are weighed for the NFL game (College Football is a different animal), the QB can pass more effectively from the shotgun in today's game than he can by dropping back from under center. But, the running game is disadvantaged.

 

By putting the RB behind the QB, the Pistol is a compromise. All else being equal, it offers more advantages to the run game than the shotgun and more advantages to the passing game than setting the QB up under center.

 

I foresee the Pistol dominating in the NFL and the RB position changing. I imagine the ideal RB will be a top notch receiver and very elusive. Think of Brian Westbrook as a model.