HTTR24-7; A Crash Course In The Pistol Formation, West Coast Offense, and RG3 as a Passer

[KDawg]

That's unfortunate you get that caught up in semantics.

Why is that unfortunate? Because you have an opposite view point? C'mon, Mahons, really? I respect the fact that you don't care that it's called the pistol offense. But I am also entitled to my opinion, no?

[Mahons21]

Why is that unfortunate? Because you have an opposite view point? C'mon, Mahons, really? I respect the fact that you don't care that it's called the pistol offense. But I am also entitled to my opinion, no?

Because I would hope you would look past the semantics and enjoy the book of the offense that was created here in Washington and took the NFL by storm. However you said you wouldn't enjoy said book, I find that unfortunate.

Typing on iPad sorry for ugly posts. FYI I responded to other points made to.

[KCClybun]

Hey, remember that guy who swore up and down we wouldn't and shouldn't trade up for RG3? Wonder whatever happened to him...

Honestly guys, it's not helping the discussion and I don't want this to become a circular debate, so just leave Mahons be.

[darrelgreenie]

Rich Campbell mentioned the Redskins staff has taken to calling the read-option/pistol formations plays as a 'series' but I can't remember the number.

Maybe it was 60 series? I'll check and see if I can find it.

[Lavarleap56]

You say that in such a matter of fact tone, but it's your definition not some standard definition that is league wide.

It is a matter of fact not just my definition. Pistol is a alignment or formation.... People can say 'pistol offense" all they want, and its said so much that its accepted as a identifier for the formation. Fact is that the pistol is only a formation/alignment.

In my opinion when you blend old concepts that have never before been used together before, it's a new offense. I think your definition makes it far too black and white, when there's a lot of grey area.

I understand your thinking but don't see it that way.A lot of these concepts have been used together, and by the same teams, the difference is the pistol formation gives a team flexibility to disguise their intentions better.

I'm not going to keep debating this though, if its good enough for an NFL coach that runs it, it's good enough for me.

Sometimes when your talking to everyday people you speak a language they understand because its easier.

Call it whatever you guys want, much of the NFL seems to already have coined it the pistol offense whether you guys like it or not.

Only people who have not taken the time to learn about it call it the pistol offense.

[darrelgreenie]

I can't believe I'm gonna delve into this.

When people say pistol offense they are refering to the formation and the plays ran from that formation, usually a specific reference to the read option plays ran from the formation.

Again, its just easier to say pistol offense then to say the read option dive, counter, zone and other motion play action concepts ran from the pistol formation to include the base offense.

---------- Post added May-16th-2013 at 11:31 AM ----------

I haven't e-mailed Rich Campbell since he was with lancaster and I don't have his current e-mail address.

But, I asked him via twiiter about the name the team call the pistol/read option package of plays.

[Mahons21]

It is a matter of fact not just my definition. Pistol is a alignment or formation.... People can say 'pistol offense" all they want, and its said so much that its accepted as a identifier for the formation. Fact is that the pistol is only a formation/alignment.

I think we're viewing this from two very different lenses LL. I'm not trying to argue it's an offense, in the sense that it's similar to air-coryell, or the WCO, rather I'm arguing it's an offense in the sense that Shanny's variant of the WCO is an offense.

But rather than call it Shanny's variant of the r/o offense, or the r/o offense with WCO passing attack, we can just call it the pistol offense.

I understand your thinking but don't see it that way.A lot of these concepts have been used together, and by the same teams, the difference is the pistol formation gives a team flexibility to disguise their intentions better.

What NFL team has utilized WCO concepts as well as r/o concepts on the very same play, regarding these combo/package plays we've been running.

Only people who have not taken the time to learn about it call it the pistol offense.

I disagree, I'm fairly familiar with the pistol formation, but I'm fine with calling these plays we haven't seen utilized in the NFL the pistol offense.

As DG points out, I'm not referencing the stretch play out of pistol formation, I'm referencing the r/o plays, the r/o packaged/combo'd plays that are being run.

---------- Post added May-16th-2013 at 12:04 PM ----------

I can't believe I'm gonna delve into this.

Hah, anytime I see some of the select few post on a topic, I'm usually interested in discussing it. Kdawg, and DogofWar are always great people for a discussion, and hell I'll even throw LL in there. Now all we need is OF, and some MartinC

[Lavarleap56]

=Mahons21;9518954]I think we're viewing this from two very different lenses LL. I'm not trying to argue it's an offense, in the sense that it's similar to air-coryell, or the WCO, rather I'm arguing it's an offense in the sense that Shanny's variant of the WCO is an offense.

But rather than call it Shanny's variant of the r/o offense, or the r/o offense with WCO passing attack, we can just call it the pistol offense.

I see what you're saying but this stuff is not new and I think people are really missing the point of whats going on in Washington.

What NFL team has utilized WCO concepts as well as r/o concepts on the very same play, regarding these combo/package plays we've been running.

Mike Shanahan has combined these elements into his offense for years bro.. The window frame looks different but the view out the glass is the same as its been since his Denver days..

I disagree, I'm fairly familiar with the pistol formation, but I'm fine with calling these plays we haven't seen utilized in the NFL the pistol offense.

Disagree.. You have seen these plays ran every sunday for years and years, but it looks different because QB is lined up in a different spot. The beauty of the pistol formation is it puts the QB in position to be a threat as a runner, quicker position to pass, and speeds up the defenses reads. When the QB is in the pistol it changes the numbers game for a defense, they have to account for the QB, then windows get wider in the passing game.

Fact is Ault came up with the pistol formation but most of what he was using was the Shanahan & Gibbs offense. I can gif up probably 100 different examples if I was bored enough. At the end of the day all this talk and discussion about "new offense" centers around the QB being 4 yards from the LOS and turned 180 degrees for the run game.. Simple stuff

[ArmchairRedskin]

This reminds me of how people sould say an Artist has a new CD out. Sure everyone knows what you mean, but its still wrong. They're called albums. The CDis just the media storage platform.

Maybe Alex Smith will be in the pistol without running any read option enough that people catch on.

[darrelgreenie]

The read-option was never used to the extent it was last year. In that regard the read option was new.

Mike Shanahan has sprinkled some option stuff into his offenses before but never to the extent he and Kyle did last year.

You have seen these plays ran every sunday for years and years, but it looks different because QB is lined up in a different spot. The beauty of the pistol formation is it puts the QB in position to be a threat as a runner, quicker position to pass, and speeds up the defenses reads.

But its not the formation that makes the QB a run threat its the read option. Just having a QB line-up in the pistol doesn't make the QB a run threat.

[KDawg]

The read-option was never used to the extent it was last year. In that regard the read option was new.

Mike Shanahan has sprinkled some option stuff into his offenses before but never to the extent he and Kyle did last year.

The option in the pros, the college game, high school football and every peewee league in all of its incarnations has run variations of the zone read/zone rushing attack for a VERY long time. The combination of the pistol and the zone read is a new marriage, but not new in concept. It's only new to the modern pro game.

But its not the formation that makes the QB a run threat its the read option. Just having a QB line-up in the pistol doesn't make the QB a run threat.

I'd argue it's both, and that's his point.

[Lavarleap56]

The read-option was never used to the extent it was last year. In that regard the read option was new.

Mike Shanahan has sprinkled some option stuff into his offenses before but never to the extent he and Kyle did last year.

But its not the formation that makes the QB a run threat its the read option. Just having a QB line-up in the pistol doesn't make the QB a run threat.

The Read Option to the extent and way he is using it now is new yes but he has always used the principles in his scheme. His Zone Stretch/QB keep is a infant version of what he is doing know but same principle and philosphy, main difference is the QB has better vision and more of a intent to make the DE declare vs the QB going off of feel and a glance over his shoulder on 18 keep. When running keep its actually stretch with a QB option to pull and run himself, whole offense thinks/blocks like its run though.

My main point is Chris Aults inside zone aka "Slice" concept is the Shanahan/Gibbs inside zone game from Pistol RO look. Same DNA in both concepts.. Shanny has been running inside zone with TE backside seal forever as you are probably well aware. I think people get confused seeing Robert in Pistol and then thing everything after that is read option. If they would really study the offense its Shanny staples from the pistol, the pistol creates different timing so the players might be in different locations to begin the play but they get to the same aiming points post snap as they would if the QB were under center.

I disagree about the QB run threat as well... Having a QB like Robert, Kap, or even Wilson in the pistol makes them more of a run threat than under center.

[Mahons21]

I see what you're saying but this stuff is not new and I think people are really missing the point of whats going on in Washington.

How so? I believe we all understand something special is formulating here in Washington, and it's due in large part to the advantages the pistol formation offers for our pistol offense

Mike Shanahan has combined these elements into his offense for years bro.. The window frame looks different but the view out the glass is the same as its been since his Denver days..

I understand that the concepts are similar to what Mike has been doing with his boot action since his DEN days, forcing the defense to cover the back end of the play.

But did Mike ever have plays where his QB could run a keep, hand the ball off or pass the ball? If he did, I was certainly unaware of it. But I'll readily admit your knowledge of the history of the game surpasses mine by miles.

Disagree.. You have seen these plays ran every sunday for years and years, but it looks different because QB is lined up in a different spot. The beauty of the pistol formation is it puts the QB in position to be a threat as a runner, quicker position to pass, and speeds up the defenses reads. When the QB is in the pistol it changes the numbers game for a defense, they have to account for the QB, then windows get wider in the passing game.

I disagree man. I haven't seen the r/o on Sunday combined with passes ever before this.

Again, let me reiterate, because I feel may be not be explaining my point all that well. I'm not referring to the plays when we run the stretch or inside zone from pistol, or when we run boot-action from pistol, only the r/o.

Fact is Ault came up with the pistol formation but most of what he was using was the Shanahan & Gibbs offense. I can gif up probably 100 different examples if I was bored enough. At the end of the day all this talk and discussion about "new offense" centers around the QB being 4 yards from the LOS and turned 180 degrees for the run game.. Simple stuff

I completely agree with all the points you're making here. But I'm not referring to those plays run out of the pistol formation, I'm referring to the r/o and r/o combo'd plays, that I don't believe either of them ever ran.

I think we may have a poor understanding of one another's POV, I believe the Pistol is a formation and an offense, not just one or the other. Maybe I"ll call into your show, haven't had many competing points of view since your boy Hyram left.

---------- Post added May-16th-2013 at 01:24 PM ----------

The option in the pros, the college game, high school football and every peewee league in all of its incarnations has run variations of the zone read/zone rushing attack for a VERY long time. The combination of the pistol and the zone read is a new marriage, but not new in concept. It's only new to the modern pro game.

What about the combo'd r/o plays that involve both WCO passing concepts along with r/o rushing attack concepts?

[KDawg]

What about the combo'd r/o plays that involve both WCO passing concepts along with r/o rushing attack concepts?

Both sets of plays have existed for quite some time. I couldn't tell you how long they've been married together, but neither of the concepts are new. The marriage is.

[Mahons21]

Both sets of plays have existed for quite some time. I couldn't tell you how long they've been married together, but neither of the concepts are new. The marriage is.

So you're saying you won't be getting em an anniversary gift?

Seriously though, what teams have been running these concepts in concert together, I don't watch all that much college football and I imagine it started there. But I can't recall a college O running WCO concepts packaged with r/o, maybe some bubble screens packaged with r/o, but not full on wco passing concepts.

[darrelgreenie]

...It's only new to the modern pro game.

And Mahons, LL and myself have been talking about the NFL.

[GO HAMSKINS]

When people bring up RGIII as a passer I just laugh. I mean he was an Elite efficient passer in college, and a Elite efficient passer in the NFl as well. SMH what else do people want him to do? Throw for 400 yards a gm? That's not his thing, wining is

[darrelgreenie]

The Read Option to the extent and way he is using it now is new yes but he has always used the principles in his scheme

Then we agree.

..... I think people get confused seeing Robert in Pistol and then thing everything after that is read option.

I guess I'm not to concerned with what 'people' in general think when it comes to football b/c most of the time I think 'they're' wrong. People are just now picking up that zone-read is just a subset of read-option. Before people were refering to all read-option plays as zone-read. Now that used to bother me.

I disagree about the QB run threat as well... Having a QB like Robert, Kap, or even Wilson in the pistol makes them more of a run threat than under center.

Robert, Kaep and Wilson sure because they're already mobile QBs. But, putting Carson Palmer in a pistol formation doesn't make him a run threat.

[KDawg]

To be exact, option football was "born" around 1941 when a college football coach was watching a basketball game and saw a two on one break. The coach saw the defender had to make a choice and the option was born.

The load option, speed option and triple option are all very similar to the read option. The difference being the first three all have their read to the play side. The zone read has the read go to the back side.

Nebraska, Oklahoma, Syracuse and Georgia Southern ran the option attack in the modern day in the 1970s.

The West Coast Offense started in 1968 when Walsh was with the Bengals.

Urban Meyer with Florida learned Bill Snyder's Kansas State shotgun option system which combined the West Coast Offense and the single wing. Meyer also incorporated the spread concept of Rich Rodriguez. Snyder used the current zone read with QB Michael Bishop in the 1990s.

---------- Post added May-16th-2013 at 01:44 PM ----------

And Mahons, LL and myself have been talking about the NFL.

Why? is the NFL the only league that matters? The concept isn't new just because the NFL hasn't used it. It's just new to the NFL. Which is quite different.

[darrelgreenie]

And Mahons, LL and myself have been talking about the NFL.

Why? is the NFL the only league that matters? The concept isn't new just because the NFL hasn't used it. It's just new to the NFL. Which is quite different.

C'mon dude for real? We're talking about the Redskins, a NFL team.

[KDawg]

C'mon dude for real? We're talking about the Redskins, a NFL team.

No we're not. We're talking about the zone read offense in conjunction with the WCO being called the "pistol offense".

It applies to the Redskins, certainly, but it's not the only application that makes sense or holds true.

[Mahons21]

Hey Kdawg, if you get time will you reply to my post #65. I'd like to learn if nothing else.

[KDawg]

Hey Kdawg, if you get time will you reply to my post #65. I'd like to learn if nothing else.

I did, read post #69.

The combination in the MODERN game was married together by Rich Rodriguez at Glenville State and Bill Snyder at Kansas State.

[Mahons21]

I did, read post #69.

The combination in the MODERN game was married together by Rich Rodriguez at Glenville State and Bill Snyder at Kansas State.

Cool, thanks for the info, I'll have to read up on em. This whole new "pistol offense" is extremely intriguing to me.

One more Q though, did they use these concepts all in one play?

[KDawg]

Cool, thanks for the info, I'll have to read up on em. This whole new "pistol offense" is extremely intriguing to me.

The pistol part was a new wrinkle, which certainly added layers to the equation. But the concepts of the zone read and the west coast offense had been married together before.

The pistol formation makes the concept so much more dangerous, and that incarnation, within the pistol formation, is new.

We're talking semantics, but as I said earlier, "under center" offense and "shot gun" offense would be misnomers in my opinion (and it really is just my opinion). Pistol offense fits in that category as well... for me