HTTR24-7.com; Tough Turf Times; It's Time To Say Goodbye To FedEx's Grass Field

[KCClybun]

Point three: Desso Grassmaster is not mentioned in the study and I would be interested in seeing a study of the effectiveness of it in reducing injury, not just in making a better playing surface. Popular in Europe, it may be a solution, but it's not currently installed at any NFL stadium and there are no stats to support its effectiveness in reducing injury - neither for or against, just no data. I would expect it to rediuce wear, as the roots have a better anchor than just soil.

Desso Grassmaster is installed and Lambeu Field, Invesco Field at Mile High and at Lincoln Financial Field. Invesco's field looked a little worse for wear in the playoff game, but Lambeu and the Linc's field still looked in pretty good condition by time the regular season ended.

---------- Post added February-18th-2013 at 11:11 PM ----------

And NLC, you throw out more crap than a little bit on this board.

Way to be personal.

The tears. They fall from my face.

[Lavarleap56]

Well in 2012 in common opponents(it works out nicely that all the other teams in our division play on a synthetic surface) we beat the Cowboys by 10 at home on grass and 7 on the road on synthetic. We beat the Eagles by 25 at home on grass and 7 on the road on hybrid. And we lost to the Giants on the road on synthetic by 4 and beat them on grass by 1. So +3 against the Cowboys, +18 against the Eagles, and +5 against the Giants. We fared better against all 3 on grass than we did on the proposed alternatives.

And that is just looking at the "competitive advantage" angle which disregards the likelihood of injury perspective.

I edited the post from 2011 to 2012.. Posting and riding the bike don't mix. That being said, Redskins offense was better on turf than grass this season, can't be disputed or debated.

[Guest Spearfeather]

The tears. They fall from my face.

Tears of shame, I imagine

[Lavarleap56]

If our guys are faster than their guys (and they are), there's absolutely no logical reason to want both teams to be at their fastest.

Are you serious right now lol.. A crappy field negates the speed advantage.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

When someone says "It's not the money, it's the principal" - it's the money..

You seem like you know a lot about growing grass. You're hired and start on Monday...

[Redskins Diehard]

To the point, however, the poor condition of FedEx field was not due to eight NFL games being played on the grass surface during the regular season, nor by shoddy maintenance. It's the overuse of the grass surface by all the college games and concerts/events that are in addition to the eight NFL games. The field is overused during a time of year when grass does not grow.

Do you have any information on the events that are actually held at FedEx? I think in 2011 there were 3 college games(a VaTech, Penn St, and Army-Navy) but 2 of those were held in the grass growing season you talked about. I believe this year there was only 1 but not sure about that. I think that most of the "extra curricular" activities happen in the July August timeframe.

[Bacon]

If you have arguably the fastest QB in the league, you want him to play on a field that will help him take advantage of that speed.

If you have a QB with a history of ACL injuries, you want him to play on a field that promotes the health and well-being of the players.

[Redskins Diehard]

I edited the post from 2011 to 2012.. Posting and riding the bike don't mix. That being said, Redskins offense was better on turf than grass this season, can't be disputed or debated.

Neither can their point differential. Which is more important?

[KCClybun]

Tears of shame, I imagine

You see this crater?

This crater is filled with all the ****s I give about what you think of me personally.

If you can't debate the issue on it's merits and have to attack me personally, then kindly just leave the discussion.

[Redskins Diehard]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, sir.

I guess we know where you fall on the fear change, logic, or data side of things.

Seriously this is a topic that is worthy of honest and factual debate/discussion. Or it can be a Lavar and Dukes special.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Are you serious right now lol.. A crappy field negates the speed advantage.

If their argument is that our players are faster regardless of the field, why wouldn't we want to make it easier on our guys by giving them the fastest field? You might make the other team slower but when you have a trash field like we do you never know if somebody is going to lose footing at an inopportune time and it will cost our team. Don't take that chance.

If we are a faster team either way, then lets cater to our own guys. Set the tempo, be proactive don't be reactive to what the other team is going to do. Don't worry about them. They can show up knowing we will run them off the field, not we are going to take our track team and grind and beat you up in the mud. That's a backwards philosophy.

We are building a Ferrari and want to run it offroad just because it might slow an already slower Porsche we might be facing. Makes no sense.

[Redskins Diehard]

If anyone is interested in some interesting stuff about what the Packers do for their field...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/14/sports/football/tenderizing-the-packers-tundra-with-light-and-heat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is another one of those things that could be considered an "option". Unless we are fixated on getting some synthetic stuff in there because that is what we want to do.

[Lavarleap56]

Since people want to throw around " Stats & logic ".. Hybrid grass is not turf. What is so hard to understand about that?

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?378491-Playing-Surface-%28Or-Why-we-need-to-evolve-as-an-organization%29

No_Pressure--- Yes, the loss is still stinging for all of us, but let's take a moment to get our minds on something else:

Since forever, Washington D.C. has been a city which was characterized by it's blue collar, tough football team. In the 80's and long before that, our great teams- though capable of passing the football with the best of them, have almost entirely been comprised of gritty, tough nosed, unspectacular athletes. Other teams had men with the agility and elusiveness of a greased pig, the speed of race horses. Almost uniformly throughout our history, at all positions which were not skill positions, the Washington Redskins have had the human version of a WW2 German Tiger Tank.

Take a look at the playing surface in any playoff video from Redskins history at RFK. It's a brownish-green, sandy mess. A combination of a grind it out running game, and generally dreary weather from October through December wreak havoc on our natural grass. This was not a problem with Riggins, Byner, Riggs, and passers such as Mark Rypien, throwing to guys such as Art Monk.

RG3 did not injure himself initially because of the playing surface, but I feel that today, especially prior to his 2nd touchdown pass (the turning point for our offense), RG3 hurt himself with an awkward plant on our crappy and unstable turf. The Seahawks kicker injured himself just trying to line up and kick it. This brought back memories of the NFL films video from the 1983-84 championship game against the 49ers where each team missed a crapload of field goals because the kickers couldn't even plant properly to kick.

Here is another thought: statistics on how our offense performed on different playing surfaces (I will use averages)

Then of course we have posters that like to bring intelligence to the topic..

Monk4TheHall: issue is that you don't get sunlight in December or January.

The air temperature can be well above freezing (32°F, 0°C) but without the constant stimulus of the sun's rays, plants, including grass, go dormant in the winter months.

Like today or yesterday, here in the mid-Atlantic, despite some rain and overcast skies, the air temperature is rather mild. It's a cool low 60s kind of day, maybe upper 50s, depending on where you're at. Though not warm, there's a current of mild air you feel when outside. Yet despite that, without the sun, things don't grow. It's January? you ask - Feels like March, some ambiguous time in Spring.

That's the climate we're in now. Winter really isn't Winter in DC. Typical DC winter, growing up, I'd describe winter as annoyingly cold, cloudy and dark. From around 45 to 55 degrees and gray. If you want winter go to Alaska. I'd much rather have something bold and in your face than this - (I'm digressing).

__

In a different thread, someone panned the idea that the field at Fedex needed to be improved, claiming that the field at whatever they call Mile-High these days, in Denver, was just as bad.

People are divided on the subject. I get that.

Just so that there is complete transparency, the Denver field incorporates the Desso system. That synthetic twining substance which is supposed to help the real grass that is grown there to grow deeper and fuller and hold stronger against people in cleats tearing it up.

The poster cited that the Denver field was falling apart, with the implication that it was just as bad as Fedex field.

I watched the first half of the Baltimore v. Denver game before I fell asleep. I didn't notice the same level of degradation that the poster implied. I looked at the field and it looked more rich in growth than Fedex. I guess I need to go back to watch the game to look at the grass instead of the game itself -

Anyway, I took that poster's comments to inspire me here, to talk about the Redskins field.

---------- Post added February-19th-2013 at 04:39 AM ----------

If anyone is interested in some interesting stuff about what the Packers do for their field...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/14/sports/football/tenderizing-the-packers-tundra-with-light-and-heat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is another one of those things that could be considered an "option". Unless we are fixated on getting some synthetic stuff in there because that is what we want to do.

Yes.. GB uses "Synthetic stuff" aka Desso Hybrid Grass and uses lights to extend the growing season. Would be ideal for FedEx.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

^^^^^

Great post and credit to Monk for the insight as well :applause:

[Redskins Diehard]

Yes.. GB uses "Synthetic stuff" aka Desso Hybrid Grass and uses lights to extend the growing season. Would be ideal for FedEx.

Probably would have been a nice nugget to put in the original article don't you think? And at this point I would be looking at 2 options...the synthetic plug and the lights, or the re-sod and the lights.

Still think the offensive stats number is useless...unless we are talking about fantasy results.

[Bacon]

If the defense is too slow, find some faster players.

There are no acceptable excuses for a sub-standard field.

[KCClybun]

Here's the cliff notes version of my viewpoint for those who care to see it instead of draw their own conclusions.

It is my opinion that the field conditions at FedEx at least partly contributed to Robert hurting himself, Chris Clemons hurting himself, and I forgot that Steven Hauschka also hurt himself at FedEx. I think when there are three leg injuries all on the same field, in the same game like that, you have to look at the field conditions as something that contributed to it. Can I prove definitely that all three injuries occured in part because of the field? No. I'm not a doctor. Never claimed to be. But I think a fair bit of common sense can be used in this case to find out what the common factors in all three injuries were; all three players awkwardly planting on really, really bad turf.

I (as I say in the article) am not saying that FieldTurf is definitively a better playing surface than grass. A grass field, under the right conditions, is always going to be better than a FieldTurf field. It's better on the knees, it seems to cause less injuries, and players tend to like it more.

My argument (which again, I say in the article) is that the conditions at FedEx Field are not ideal. We do not have the climate necessary to maintain a grass field through eight NFL games, any college football games we may see, and events that may happen during the summer. The grass takes a beating, and then by time we'd re-sod it, conditions in this particular region are not conducive to growing a level, well playing, all grass field.

I don't particularly care one way or the other if the field we use is FieldTurf, or if it's the Desso hybrid grass. What seems clear to me now is that the all grass field isn't working, and that re-sodding the field at the mid-point of the season won't solve the issue. And in the interest of having a safe, fast playing surface, FieldTurf or Grassmaster are both better options than what we have now.

[Guest Spearfeather]

Next season will be a big test, and I hope they find a way to make it work. Desso would seem like the next best option.

[TheBlueIndian]

I have worked in the the turf industry in the Mid - Atlantic for the last 20 years as a golf course superintendent and I am at a loss as to why on earth this cat at FedEx cant seem to figure this thing out. For the love of god you have less than 4 acres of turf that you have to nurse along through roughly 40 days when the plant is edging into dormancy. For gods sake ever here of soil ammendments and overseeding ? I had an opportunity to tour the underbelly of FedEx back in 2000, it is state of the art evn by today's standards. There are literally miles of pipe both for drainage and irrigation, this gives you the ability to heat the rootzone and enhance the plants response to the cold. Beyond that there are several materials available to cover the field that will create a convection like process and still allow for photosynthesis to occur. There really is no excuse, I mean the occasional rock concert can tear it up a little bit, but not to the extent that the field is unplayable. Fed Ex is a complete embarassment and gives professionals in the turf industry a bad name.

[Hitman21ST]

Are you serious right now lol.. A crappy field negates the speed advantage.

Whoops, I said that wrong. I meant to say no logical reason to *not* want both teams at their fastest.

So I guess I wasn't serious :pfft:

[Guest Spearfeather]

Let's put our best at 100%

Compared to us, "their best" (whoever they are) is 90% of "our best". There is a +10% difference of play in our favor with both teams at their best.

The full natural reduces everyone's effectiveness by 50%.

Now, our best is 50%. Their best is 45%. There is only a +5% difference of play in our favor.

This is evening the playing field, to our detriment.

Lets try this again, but change the starting " strength ' percentages.

Our best is 90%, Their best is 100%.

The " full natural grass " reduction is 50%. for both teams.

Instead of the other team having a 10% advantage, their advantage has now been reduced to 5%

[HighOnHendrix]

We are building a Ferrari and want to run it offroad just because it might slow an already slower Porsche we might be facing. Makes no sense.

Technically you can do that...

...but not recommended cuz it usually turns out like this:

[DeadExField]

I'd love to take credit for this, guys, but I just can't.:pfft:

:ols:

good one

[RemoveSnyder]

Yea my position is for the combo of Desso + SGL. Basically that's the short of it. I wrote a long winded version of that in another thread here.

And the words "re-sodding" that tumble from Bruce's mouth needs to be replaced with overseeding and diverse varietal. Someone needs to get to him to explain this.

The Tifway 419 is fine from May to September but by October overseeding and mixed varietal re-seeding needs to happen in conjunction with the SGL system - putting out the photosynthetically active radiation.

The Tifway is great for the real southern places, great for drought resistancy. In the summer when exposed to warmth and water it's a soft and supple grass. Combo that with the sand that the Fedex guys seem to love for their base, it's a really forgiving surface. Yet, you need a varietal that can thrive in shade, to partial shade, as well as colder temps when the season changes. So a Bluegrass would be ideal, maybe even certain Fescues. I'm not certain on Ryegrass. My gut says go with Bluegrass.

But the important point is to giving the grass the one element that dwindles away throughout the fall and winter - the Sun.

I'm glad I'm coming to this thread now with most of the ground work already done. And since I don't have to defend a dissertation on most of this stuff.

I guess we have already covered the 2010 NFLPA survey whereby the player selected and preferred natural grass surfaces to artificial, right? - I guess I don't need to post or link that if it's already been covered. And I guess we also covered the Reuters report and the various other reports on the longterm injury study between natural and artificial, right?

So since I don't need to bring up those points or argue them, I can just basically sit and say:

Desso to anchor the roots as well as stabilize the ground from breaking or up-clumping. A combo of the current summer soil (that soil combo with sand) + the Tifway 419 Bermudagrass. Then an autumn re-seeding & overseeding to a shade tolerant and cold temp resistant variety like Bluegrass or Fescue.

So basically with re-sodding, the roots won't take hold especially if you're looking at a 1 week turn-around before playing. If it's cold, but especially wet , that stuff will tear up in a hearbeat. New sod is so soft and so easy to break up. And without Sun, forget about it. The "plug" or "anchoring" system that Desso provides really established the roots.

But just as importantly, integrating the SGL system from OCT to JAN to extend the growth and stave off dormancy is key. And if temps do drop by DEC to JAN, the field already has an integrated tubing system to provide radiant heating to the soil in addition to all other countermeasures.

Of course we all know that each of those initiatives will cost a lot. And it ultimately comes down to maintenance not substance.

Climate does factor, so too does the multi-use of the field. However, there's a reason why the Non-AQ, the FCS and smaller schools all go to synthetic field turf despite climate = $.

This is an article which address that topic in the college game: http://www.vanquishthefoe.com/2012/7/2/3129894/is-natural-grass-dying-in-college-football

And there's a reason why the cash cow programs stay with natural despite climate.

I could have simplified my post to one word: Money.

It's a matter of whether the Organization wants to spend money for the best and money to maintain the best. If not, then by all means stay with shoddy craftsmanship.

[Rypien1191]

With the condition Robert's knee was in at the end of the year, he could have tweaked it laying in a lounger in a swimming pool.

Let's not forget this all started with a helmet to the knee from a 350 pound man.

That being said, I still wouldn't mind synthetic for our speed offense.