Lack of QB pressure; coaching, players or both?

[ZoEd]

As far as scheme is concerned, I'd like to see our blitzes disguised better. I'd also like to see some more stunts on obvious passing downs. But after watching some of the dominating performances put on by some d-lines (in very vanilla matter) bears dominant Romo sits to pee with front four, Rams dominating Kolb with front four and so on... I can only put so much blame on the scheme. If Haslett had the talent to generate the pressure those teams do with a 4-man rush, I don't think people would be as hard on him as they are.

First of all, thanks a ton for the education on coverage technique, means so much more than "Hall sucks" or "he's a beast". Please, keep it coming lol..

Your last paragraph is spot on! That's exactly what I've been seeing as well. I'm extremely pleased how we've handled the run and screens this year, we don't really seem to be getting caught with our pants down too often in that regard. However, when game planning for a team that has a QB with the propensity to struggle when pressured consistently we have to find a way to get in his face, often and repeatedly. We also need to put him on his ass a couple times getting inside his head which makes him rush his throws. For instance, Bradford against Detroit. Two more sacks, whatever, but 5 additional hits on a QB that has been very fragile thus far in his career is HUGE! We have to get to the QB, period! It's our Coaches responsiblity to find a way.

As for Alexander, anyone?

[Enter Apotheosis]

This boggles the mind. How in the hell do you call a guy a failure because he's not a possible first-ballot Hall of Famer? Orakpo has been an 8-10 sack guy with impact well beyond his sack numbers numbers, and he's been healthy up until last year, and it seems he was rushed back from that.

I would say that the opposite is true. Orakpo's problem is that he doesn't have a big impact beyond his sack numbers and his sack numbers are not good enough for that not to matter. Orakpo is only partially to blame for this because, as I said earlier, good pass-rushing teams have far more success at collapsing the pocket than we do but he does still deserve some blame.

[KCClybun]

If you really watched the d-line play, you'd know that claims that we don't have the talent to do what we want to do is bull****.

Stephen Bowen has been playing out of his skull. Barry Cofield isn't dominant but he's solid at nose, much improved form last year. Jenkins will start to play better when he stops worrying about the ACL and just goes out and plays. Baker and Worthington do real good work in spot duty.

It's not talent, it's coaching. Basically we have a lot of 4-3 coaches trying to coach a 3-4 defense. And part of that is on Mike, who was hellbent on having a 3-4 defense. But when you watch the defense play, it's pretty obvious that our defense doesn't play as a unit, but as three separate units.

The d-line is doing one thing. The linebackers are doing another. And then the d-backs are doing another thing. Our defense is disjointed, and our formations and play calls are basic, vanilla and predictable. Offensive coordinators know what we do, and often times we're out called before the snap. And part of getting pressure with four rushers is disrupting the timing of routes, and often (particularly in zone) we let receivers get free releases without a jam or pushing them of their routes; it's easy to complete passes when your receiver is right where he needs to be against any coverage.

In the first half against the Bucs, we manned up against the receivers, and disrupted the receivers and the timing. When Josh Freeman's first read wasn't there right away, we got him to shift his feet and make bad decisions. That's how you do it. Freeman hit a big play on us in the second half and then we got soft and got straight up out called on a lot of plays.

That points to coaching. In some points we don't have the greatest talent, but their are FAR worse defenses than ours in the NFL in terms of talent.

[GaryGreenMonk]

our front 4 are run stoppers and gap fillers.

All of our sacks last year came from Orakpo and Kerrigan.

With Orakpo gone and a weak secondary... you're afraid to send Kerrigan or DHall blitzing in, cause you're potentially leaving Rob Jackson in coverage by himself and asking Wilson and Crawford to go into Man.

If we keep London and Hall back in coverage all the time, you can occasionally send Kerrigan, but you've lost a lot of flexability and looks.

Jenkins, Bowen, and Cofield are built to control the gaps and stop the run. They are not fast edge rushers.

That said...

It would really help in the game this Sunday if Cofield and Bowen can have big games and really get some push up the middle.

If I was Haz, I would let them loose a bit and rather than making sure they have their gap covered, let them try to get in the QB's face.

If we lose this game.. it ain't gonna be cause Turner is so awesome.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

It's not talent, it's coaching. Basically we have a lot of 4-3 coaches trying to coach a 3-4 defense. And part of that is on Mike, who was hellbent on having a 3-4 defense. But when you watch the defense play, it's pretty obvious that our defense doesn't play as a unit, but as three separate units.

.

I agree, but at the same time, we HAD better 3-4 coaches available - Mike Zimmer had coached a 3-4 in Dallas. Romeo Crennel was available put together a 3 time Superbowl winning 3-4 defense, and that defense wasn't THAT loaded in raw talent ever, until like 2004. And he could always have grabbed a position coach from a top 3-4 team like San Diego or Pittsburgh, or hell, made Spanos the DC. Shanny messed up by picking Haslett when he wasn't the best guy available that offseason.

I would say that the opposite is true. Orakpo's problem is that he doesn't have a big impact beyond his sack numbers and his sack numbers are not good enough for that not to matter. Orakpo is only partially to blame for this because, as I said earlier, good pass-rushing teams have far more success at collapsing the pocket than we do but he does still deserve some blame.

Orakpo's pass-rushing impact goes well beyond his sack numbers. Unless you're talking about him as a "complete linebacker". But as a pass-rusher, he consistently draws holds, draws double teams and disrupts the pocket, which opens up opportunities for the other players.

There's no coincidence that Bowen and Carriker got 6 sacks apiece in a TWO-GAP 3-4 defense. That like, never happens. A lot of that was because of how good Orakpo was.

[KCClybun]

I agree, but at the same time, we HAD better 3-4 coaches available - Mike Zimmer had coached a 3-4 in Dallas. Romeo Crennel was available put together a 3 time Superbowl winning 3-4 defense, and that defense wasn't THAT loaded in raw talent ever, until like 2004. And he could always have grabbed a position coach from a top 3-4 team like San Diego or Pittsburgh, or hell, made Spanos the DC. Shanny messed up by picking Haslett when he wasn't the best guy available that offseason.

It's my understanding we talked to Romeo a little bit, but dude, I agree. Don't know why Shanny went with Haz. I've said it before that Spanos went to UCLA like a week too early. I think we talked to those guys but for whatever reason they passed or didn't think the fit was good. And then there was Haz.

Haz wanted to run a 4-3. Mike wanted to run a 3-4. HC ultimately won out.

Despite that, though---this is Haslett's third year coaching this style of defense, two of which he worked with Lou Spanos, who DID know the 3-4. So even though he's a 4-3 guy, it's not like he's unexperienced. Like you said, Mike Zimmer had done it, and Romeo Crennel ran a 4-3 defense than slowly morphed in a 3-4 over time, and Haslett ran the 3-4 in Pittsburgh. So even though Mike could've made a better choice, Haslett has had plenty of time for an NFL level coordinator to know and understand the NFL.

[Enter Apotheosis]

our front 4 are run stoppers and gap fillers.

All of our sacks last year came from Orakpo and Kerrigan.

Bowen had 6 sacks and Carriker had 5.5. That's pretty damn good for the scheme we run.

Jenkins, Bowen, and Cofield are built to control the gaps and stop the run. They are not fast edge rushers.

It's a good thing they don't rush from the edge then, isn't it?

[darrelgreenie]

Both.

I thought the defense was much better in the first half vs the Bucs, not good against the Bengals and Rams and very good against the Saints especially in the 1st half.

At the macro level I think the lack of pressure, even before Rak was out, stems from not having a disruptive player that can consistently win at the POA and get upfield push in pass rush situations.

We lack a disruptive DL that can 'push' the pocket.

I think Coefield could be that player for us if he wasn't stuck playing NT but I digress.

But not having a stud on the DL in and of itself isn't a big deal providing a defense produce A/B gap pressure elsewhere via stunt or ILB blitz.

But, that isn't Haslett's strong suit, especially without Lou.

But even without A/B gap pressure a defense can still produce pass rush via zone or over load or free rusher bltizing.

Imo Haslett seems to rely on bringing an extra man or free rusher (because he lacks creativity within a 34) but he's still searching for a DB that's a good enough blitzer to make those pressures work.

At this point the defensive staff needs to do some self evaluation and come up with some answers.

I'm hopeful this defense will improve because I doubt they'll get worse.

[RandyHolt]

Our DBs are a weakness but its no secret. Shanny tried. Drugs, injuries, freak accidents, we all need to have reasonable expectations of them.

Its up to our front 7 to do a little more, to improve our overall DB play. I see about average play from our front 7. Going against an early poster, I do not feel they are close to best in the league. Stats aside, we do not pass the eye test of getting enough pressure to me. Our F7 do appear to be a good vs the run. I am happy when teams try to run on us.

How to fix it... It comes down to Haslet. We have decent enough talent. I like Cofield but wonder if a big heavy stout traditional NT would collapse that pocket a little more. NT play is big in a 3-4. Sure we bring a 4 man front and it may be a non issue, but a good rush has to start in the middle, other wise the speed guys get played to the outside, over and over.

Who is our 2nd best pass rusher with Rak out?

[GaryGreenMonk]

Bowen had 6 sacks and Carriker had 5.5. That's pretty damn good for the scheme we run.

It's a good thing they don't rush from the edge then, isn't it?

I didnt say it wasnt good.. but Carriker is gone too w/ Orakpo. But yea.. 11 sacks between them for last year w/ the scheme we run is good.

But that was also LAST year.

Its of note that through 4 games... Cofield, Bowen, Carriker, Jenkins, Golston and Baker have combined for... wait for it.... ZERO sacks.

so even with Orakpo and Carriker for 2 games, all those guys went for zero sacks.

I'm pretty sure that has something to do with why we are allowing so many yards in the air compared to last year. ..Lets be honest.. we were rolling with Williams and Doughty at S last week,... that last 4-5 games of last year, we had Gomes and Doughty back there, but the defense was doing much better.

If you look at last years defensive stats, we were better against the pass and weaker against the run. we ranked 18th or lower in all catagories against the run.

I think there was an effort by the staff to correct that. The problem though is that its resulted in those guys filling gaps and not getting the QBs face. Thus zero sacks by any of them. Our ranking against the run has improved but our defense against the pass has tanked.

[Bishop Hammer]

I hate to say it Hitman but I believe that to be homerism at its finest.

Woooh yeah. If our front seven can really get their stuff together, and work their tails off like crazy, maybe just maybe they can get close to mediocre.

Here's hoping they draft a good D-lineman in this years second round.

[Hitman21ST]

Woooh yeah. If our front seven can really get their stuff together, and work their tails off like crazy, maybe just maybe they can get close to mediocre.

Here's hoping they draft a good D-lineman in this years second round.

Right, I forgot that "real" Redskins fans have to say the team sucks.

We have a top 5 LB corps, with a top 15 DL. Put the two together, and it's a top 10 front 7. No homerism whatsoever.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Right, I forgot that "real" Redskins fans have to say the team sucks.

We have a top 5 LB corps, with a top 15 DL. Put the two together, and it's a top 10 front 7. No homerism whatsoever.

the whole DL has zero sacks, which I just pointed out. Not sure how you can say they are top 15 with a combined zero sacks. not even a half sack.

Golston, Carriker, Bowen, Cofield, Baker, Jenkins... 4 games .. zero sacks.

[Hitman21ST]

the whole DL has zero sacks, which I just pointed out. Not sure how you can say they are top 15 with a combined zero sacks. not even a half sack.

Golston, Carriker, Bowen, Cofield, Baker, Jenkins... 4 games .. zero sacks.

Because our DL isn't supposed to get sacks in the scheme we run. When they do, it's a plus, but it's not necessary.

The Patriots and Steelers DLs only have one sack apiece. It's not uncommon for 3-4 DL to not get sacks.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Because our DL isn't supposed to get sacks in the scheme we run. When they do, it's a plus, but it's not necessary.

The Patriots and Steelers DLs only have one sack apiece. It's not uncommon for 3-4 DL to not get sacks.

read my last post on page 4 and you'll get the point im making.

[Bishop Hammer]

Right, I forgot that "real" Redskins fans have to say the team sucks.

We have a top 5 LB corps, with a top 15 DL. Put the two together, and it's a top 10 front 7. No homerism whatsoever.

I didn't say the whole team "sucked". I pointed out one of its weaknesses.

So yes I guess I am a real fan because I hope it will get adressed and the team can be all that it can be.

[OlufemiBiz]

Problem 1: Haslett sucks. As others have said, his blitzes are predictable and horribly designed. LeBeau and Ryan play 2 gap 3-4s where the 3 down linemen occupy the rush, the OLBs get the outside pressure and they use creative zone blitz schemes to generate pressure. Now that Haslett doesn't have Rak on the other side, he doesn't have the creativity to scheme up blitzes to compensate.

Problem 2: Jenkins is not 100%, and Carriker is not there to generate pocket push. Cofield and Bowen have played well, but we're missing a LOT of depth up front (don't forget about Chris Neild, though not sure how Chris Baker has done).

I think we do need to bring in an experienced 3-4 coach at some point - though we could have had Romeo Crennel...

How 'bout starting Chris Baker @ NT? And, having Barry Cofield sliding over into Adam Carriker's DE spot?

As for the Safety position: Why not stop 'faking' - and 'fess-up' that our Safeties are NOT 'interchangeable' (FS/SS)?

Just MY '2¢'!?! HAIL!

[onedrop]

It's talent, guys.

London is the closest thing we have to an All-Pro player, but his age shows every time he's caught in coverage by pass catching TE. We have players that are good to above average on that side of the ball, but no one that strikes the fear of God in opposing teams coaching schemes. For example: Houston runs a 3-4 just like us, but has a DE with 7.5 sacks already. It's week f'n 5...

Most if the catches ive seen against London are based on his height, not age.

[DCsportsfan53]

Right, I forgot that "real" Redskins fans have to say the team sucks.

We have a top 5 LB corps, with a top 15 DL. Put the two together, and it's a top 10 front 7. No homerism whatsoever.

You're smoking, dude. Orakpo is average, Fletcher is still very good but isn't quite what he once was and the sudden preponderance of 6 foot 5 TEs who can run hurts him, Riley's still unproven....Kerrigan is a monster though. Our DL is made of a bunch of lunch pail hard worker guys with no studs and it lacks a legit NT to run the 3-4 scheme, especially the Pittsburgh modeled one we're trying to run. Kerrigan is the only true impact player of the bunch and none of them are elite pass rushers. The front 7 is not nearly as good as advertised.

Edit: That said I happen to believe with better coaching they could be a lot better than they have been and I think Haslett is clearly a large part of the problem.

[Hitman21ST]

You're smoking, dude. Orakpo is average, Fletcher is still very good but isn't quite what he once was and the sudden preponderance of 6 foot 5 TEs who can run hurts him, Riley's still unproven....Kerrigan is a monster though. Our DL is made of a bunch of lunch pail hard worker guys with no studs and it lacks a legit NT to run the 3-4 scheme, especially the Pittsburgh modeled one we're trying to run. Kerrigan is the only true impact player of the bunch and none of them are elite pass rushers. The front 7 is not nearly as good as advertised.

Just exactly how do you figure Orakpo is average? He's averaged just under 10 sacks per year for his first three years, has vastly improved his coverage and run support, and offenses had to gameplan for him and double him to keep him contained. But I guess any average OLB can claim that, right?

Fletcher is still one of the best ILBs in the league. He has a nose for the ball and can be counted on to make the critical stop. Sure, he can't cover 6'5 TEs, but there isn't a LB who can. Riley might be "unproven", but so far he's been up to snuff.

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 01:01 AM ----------

I didn't say the whole team "sucked". I pointed out one of its weaknesses.

So yes I guess I am a real fan because I hope it will get adressed and the team can be all that it can be.

No, what you said was with work, the defense (specifically the front 7, because that's what I was talking about) can get to mediocre. That means it sucks. Our front 7 isn't a weakness. Can it improve? Sure, any defense can improve. Are our DL and LBs some of the best in the league? Yes.

[PilarVIRUS]

The defense is too predictible. If they know what's coming it makes it easier to counter. It's one of the reason the kitchen sink blitzes never work.

It's not that. We're not getting enough pressure, 3.5 seconds in the pocket is too long for any CB to cover a WR if the QB not getting any pressure.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Just exactly how do you figure Orakpo is average? He's averaged just under 10 sacks per year for his first three years, has vastly improved his coverage and run support, and offenses had to gameplan for him and double him to keep him contained. But I guess any average OLB can claim that, right?

There are 13 teams that run some form of the 3-4 by my count which means there are 26 starting OLBs. DeMarcus Ware, Clay Matthews, LaMarr Woodley, and Terrell Suggs all averaged a higher number of sacks in their first three years in the league and I would be shocked if Aldon Smith didn't follow suit (and possibly blow them all out of the water). Tamba Hali's career got off to an inconsistent start in a bad 4-3 defense but the moment the Chiefs moved him to 3-4 OLB he began producing at a very high level, unlike Orakpo who seemed far slower to adapt, and I think I'd put him ahead of Orakpo as well. That puts Orakpo immediately out of the top 20% at his position. Consider also that most of us here on ES already consider Kerrigan to be the better all-around player, Chandler Jones could conceivably join the list of guys who got off to a hotter start, we don't know if Orakpo has the kind of long-term potential that a slower developing guy like James Harrison had, Robert Mathis' production seems mostly unphased by the change to OLB, and there are two former 3-4 OLBs who could also give Orakpo a run for his money in the productivity and talent departments in Wake and Dumervil. Taking all that into account could easily lead a reasonable person to rank Orakpo anywhere between 7th and 14th out of about 30 known 3-4 OLB quantities.

I don't know about you but if a guy falls neither in the top third in the league at his position or in the bottom third I'd consider him to be pretty much average. Now, I'd personally tend to put Orakpo closer to the top third than the middle of the pack and consider him to be above average... but I don't consider it at all unreasonable for someone to have a slightly lower opinion of him or a slightly different standard for what constitutes 'average'.

[ADF]

Keim put it best. In the last TWO games combined the Redskins have had 66 passes attempted against them. They've only sacked the QB 3 times and (an even more damning stat) the defense only hit the QBs 10 times. That's pathetic. Pressure is imperative. Freeman had a ton of time in the last game. He even had time in the one sack we did get. If Matt Ryan is given the same amount of time Freeman got then it's going to get ugly. Ryan isn't going to miss.

[GO HAMSKINS]

The defense is too predictible. If they know what's coming it makes it easier to counter. It's one of the reason the kitchen sink blitzes never work.

Thank god some one else realizes this!! Hass Defense is way too predictable!

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 02:55 PM ----------

There are 13 teams that run some form of the 3-4 by my count which means there are 26 starting OLBs. DeMarcus Ware, Clay Matthews, LaMarr Woodley, and Terrell Suggs all averaged a higher number of sacks in their first three years in the league and I would be shocked if Aldon Smith didn't follow suit (and possibly blow them all out of the water). Tamba Hali's career got off to an inconsistent start in a bad 4-3 defense but the moment the Chiefs moved him to 3-4 OLB he began producing at a very high level, unlike Orakpo who seemed far slower to adapt, and I think I'd put him ahead of Orakpo as well. That puts Orakpo immediately out of the top 20% at his position. Consider also that most of us here on ES already consider Kerrigan to be the better all-around player, Chandler Jones could conceivably join the list of guys who got off to a hotter start, we don't know if Orakpo has the kind of long-term potential that a slower developing guy like James Harrison had, Robert Mathis' production seems mostly unphased by the change to OLB, and there are two former 3-4 OLBs who could also give Orakpo a run for his money in the productivity and talent departments in Wake and Dumervil. Taking all that into account could easily lead a reasonable person to rank Orakpo anywhere between 7th and 14th out of about 30 known 3-4 OLB quantities.

I don't know about you but if a guy falls neither in the top third in the league at his position or in the bottom third I'd consider him to be pretty much average. Now, I'd personally tend to put Orakpo closer to the top third than the middle of the pack and consider him to be above average... but I don't consider it at all unreasonable for someone to have a slightly lower opinion of him or a slightly different standard for what constitutes 'average'.

LOL I stop reading after you said Rakpo is average???? smh, I guess Kerrigan is a below average 3-4 backer based on his sack #'s too lol

[Enter Apotheosis]

LOL I stop reading after you said Rakpo is average???? smh, I guess Kerrigan is a below average 3-4 backer based on his sack #'s too lol

Based on this post, I can only assume that the reason you stopped reading is because "words are hard".