Top 5 small forwards in NBA history

[Going Commando]

I think some consideration should be made for the fact Dr. J's impact on the NBA was so profound. If we're talking about the greatest players in pro basketball history, he's certainly on the short list. I think him and Michael Jordan are the two most important players in NBA history as they had more of an effect in shaping the game today than anybody else. Dr. J was a pioneer. You have to acknowledge that there were things people just didn't do before him, nobody had thought of them before. The reverse layup, double clutches, the "slam" dunk, etc. He basically invented the modern slashing wing. His greatness goes beyond the numbers and x, y, and z skills.

To this day, he's still an important ambassador for the NBA.

I agree with LKB though that many of Dr. J's greatest achievements and additions to the game came when the nation wasn't really watching. The VA Squires were a purely regional franchise. I actually live about 5 minutes from Norfolk Scope and pass by it every day. What I wouldn't give to be able to time travel back 40 years and walk into that Arena and see Dr. J and George Gervin play.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think some consideration should be made for the fact Dr. J's impact on the NBA was so profound. If we're talking about the greatest players in pro basketball history, he's certainly on the short list. I think him and Michael Jordan are the two most important players in NBA history as they had more of an effect in shaping the game today than anybody else. Dr. J was a pioneer. You have to acknowledge that there were things people just didn't do before him, nobody had thought of them before. The reverse layup, double clutches, the "slam" dunk, etc. He basically invented the modern slashing wing. His greatness goes beyond the numbers and x, y, and z skills.

If the question is "most important" players in NBA history, he's easily top five. It's Jordan, Larry, Magic, Doc and Wilt and I'm not sure there is an argument for anyone else.

I'm just saying that as a pure basketball player - particularly once he got to the NBA - he was over-rated. The year he won a title with the Sixers, I think he was the third best player on the team.

I'm not sure this is his fault though. Playing in the ABA did his game absolutely no favors aside from helping him build his "coolness."

The ABA is sort of amazing. I was way too young to have any real memories of it, but it defintely was a cultural force. My cousin who was three years older than me had an outdoor hoop and a Red, White, and Blue basketball. He was the coolest person on earth because of that.

I had a Pop-O-Matic basketball game that I'm 99 percent sure was ABA themed. I'm pretty sure I got it AFTER the merger. My father must have got it on a discount rack.

I agree with LKB though that many of Dr. J's greatest achievements and additions to the game came when the nation wasn't really watching. The VA Squires were a purely regional franchise. I actually live about 5 minutes from Norfolk Scope and pass by it every day. What I wouldn't give to be able to time travel back 40 years and walk into that Arena and see Dr. J and George Gervin play.

I imagine you could have sat courtside for, like, four bucks.

[JMS]

My point was his stats didn't drop when MJ retired, they went up. Slightly but they did.

My point is the drive to be a Michael Jordan, a Larry Bird, a Magic Johnson, a Tim Duncan or an Hakeem is different than the will to be a McHale, Worthy, or Pipen. It's one thing to will yourself to win and raise the play of everyone around you; it's something else to be a piece of a winning franchise... A great player who's play and accomplishments are elevated by playing with a generational great player. A guy who is self motivated to sacrifice to become a champion.

When the lakers lost Kareem and Magic had to play center, dude scores 40 pts and has a triple double playing out of position...

When Keven McHale set a Celtics scoring record with 56 points in 85, ( bird had like 14 assists )... Bird told him he should have gone for 60... Bird came back 5 days later and dropped 60 on Atlanta. Two of the hawks players were so impressed they fell off the bench when Bird drained a three with two hawk defenders draped all over him.

When Jordan went for 63 against the Celtics, or Jordan having the highest playoff scoring record ever..

The ability to will yourself to win, and lift your game... not very many people have it.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 12:54 PM ----------

I'm just saying that as a pure basketball player - particularly once he got to the NBA - he was over-rated. The year he won a title with the Sixers' date=' I think he was the third best player on the team..[/quote']

Dr. J won the NBA Championship in 1983

He was first team all NBA that season

He was the all star game MVP that season

and he was two seasons removed from his League MVP season in 81.

I'm sorry how exactly can you claim an 11 time NBA all star, ( not including 3 time ABA all star ) was over rated? Just throw it out there?.

[Sticksboi05]

My point is the drive to be a Michael Jordan, a Larry Bird, a Magic Johnson, a Tim Duncan or an Hakeem is different than the will to be a McHale, Worthy, or Pipen. It's one thing to will yourself to win and raise the play of everyone around you; it's something else to be a piece of a winning franchise... A great player who's play and accomplishments are elevated by playing with a generational great player. A guy who is self motivated to sacrifice to become a champion.

This is all true but my point had nothing to do with any of that, just that he was a very good basketball player in his own right is all.

[JMS]

This is all true but my point had nothing to do with any of that, just that he was a very good basketball player in his own right is all.

I didn't say he wasn't. I had him on my top 5 small forwards of all time ahead of Lebron at this point in his career. I'm just saying If he hadn't been on Jordan's team, he wouldn't have been on six champion teams and wouldn't have been one of the top 5 small forwards ever.

Again my list was

1. Larry Bird
   
2. Julius Erving
   
3. John Havlicek
   
4. Elgin Baylor
   
5. Scottie Pippen
   

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 01:23 PM ----------

I think Lebron is at least Pippen's equivalent on defense. And Pippen was never (except in '94)' date=' his team's most important offensive player. What Lebron does on defense is insane considering that every other player of Lebron's offensive stature (aside from Jordan) tended to "rest" on defense.[/quote']

Lebron has 1 championship, 0 without Wade.

Pippen has 6 championships...

Lebron is one season away from people thinking he was a goat... not the G.O.A.T, but a goat. A guy who rolled over and played dead on his franchise.

I'm sorry Lebron needs a another seasons like last season to get on this list, or 3-4 more championships... After the 2010 playoffs he really needs to perform for a few years to get that stink off his name. Have you ever heard of anybody on the above list giving up on there team or rolling over and playing dead?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm sorry how exactly can you claim an 11 time NBA all star, ( not including 3 time ABA all star ) was over rated? Just throw it out there?.

You are really obsessed with all-star appearances. I don't put much stock in them. I also don't think he deserved the '81 MVP. I think you could make a case for Bird or Moses that year.

I think he was over-rated because I don't think you could win an NBA title with him as the best player on your team. And even if he made All-NBA first team, he was not the best player on the team. Moses (the MVP) was. And - to this day - I still fear that Andrew Toney is going to sneak into my bedroom in the middle of the night and score 35 points on me. Andrew Toney had no conscience.

That 1983 season was like a victory lap for Doc. Everyone was so happy for him being on that great a team that they just sort of gave him every honor you could think of. Even though Doc was on one of the NBA's all time great teams that year, the gap between him and Bird had already grown to a chasm that year. (Bird put up a 24/11/6).

There's a 5 percent chance this happens with Steve Nash next year by the way.

I think we remember Doc for moments more than for his body of work (at least in the NBA). He was a great player. He helped create the modern game. (Though David Thompson always gets forgotten in these discussions...except - weirdly - when the utterly unsentimental Michael Jordan starts talking). But he had a fair number of holes in his game that guys like Lebron, Bird, and Barry don't have.

He was better than Wilkins (who I hate) but he had some of Wilkins flaws. If he wasn't scoring, he wasn't going to help you a lot. And if he wasn't getting to the rim, he didn't score easily.

[JMS]

You are really obsessed with all-star appearances. I don't put much stock in them. I also don't think he deserved the '81 MVP. I think you could make a case for Bird or Moses that year.

I'm obsessed with Championships.. because I heard somewhere that that is why people play the game. That is the objective. In the absense of Championships, I do go on the opinion of their peers and those who watched the players closest in any given year... which means all-star apperances, and league leading metrics.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm obsessed with Championships.. because I heard somewhere that that is why people play the game. That is the objective. In the absense of Championships, I do go on the opinion of their peers and those who watched the players closest in any given year... which means all-star apperances, and league leading metrics.

But you don't have Lebron in the top five even though he's already surpassed or tied Doc by every metric you can imagine. (Unless you are equating ABA titles with NBA titles).

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 12:50 PM ----------

PS

The two most over-hyped performances in NBA history are

1. Magic playing center in the '80 Finals, and

2. Jordan's 63-point game.

1. Magic was a center during the opening tip and a few other points during the game. Jim Chones actually played the majority of the minutes at center. Actually, calling it over-rated is not fair, because Magic was awesome in that game. But it's rated highly for the wrong reasons. It also in that weird place with the Miracle on Ice. Everyone seems to think the Miracle on Ice game was for the Gold Medal and everyone seems to think that Magic's "game at center" was Game 7.

2. Jordan scored 63 points in a double over time game in which he took 41 shots and 21 free throws in 53 minutes. A game his team lost in a series in which his 50-loss team was swept. I mean, it was kind of amazing but he barely shot 50 percent in that game. That was more a test of endurance than actual basketball skill.

[JMS]

I think he was over-rated because I don't think you could win an NBA title with him as the best player on your team.

And yet he won 2 play off MVP's and 2 titles with the ABA which you discount.

I think we remember Doc for moments more than for his body of work (at least in the NBA). He was a great player. He helped create the modern game. (Though David Thompson always gets forgotten in these discussions...except - weirdly - when the utterly unsentimental Michael Jordan starts talking). But he had a fair number of holes in his game that guys like Lebron' date=' Bird, and Barry don't have.

He was better than Wilkins (who I hate) but he had some of Wilkins flaws. If he wasn't scoring, he wasn't going to help you a lot. And if he wasn't getting to the rim, he didn't score easily.

Well he's top 5 scoring all time, so I would argue he did pretty well...

I would also note you love Wilt Chamberlain, who is guilty of everything you are accusing Dr. J of. Wilt won 1 championship in his prime and only then because they scoured the league for an all star team to get past the Celtics.. Wilt who was refereed to throughout his career matter of factually as LOOSER, and SELFISH, cause he lost to the Celtics so many times in big games, and serially padded his stats..... lost like 8 or 9 series to the Celtics only winning 1... Then of coarse he went to the Lakers, winning again in 72 when he was almost in a wheel chair posting his career lowest scoring average and they gave him the finals MVP. Not because he was good, but because Wilt 7'1" could out perform 6'8" Jerry Lucus on an injury depleted NY team. Wilt was out of the league in 73.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I would also note you love Wilt Chamberlain, who is guilty of everything you are accusing Dr. J of.

Huh? No, I don't.

I had him in my top five because you kind of have to. I also said that I don't think I would ever draft or sign him.

(Predicto loves Wilt. But Predicto is from San Franciso and may be one of Wilt's 20,000. Predicto and I disagree on Wilt and agree on Rick Barry).

[Dan T.]

PS

The two most over-hyped performances in NBA history are

1. Magic playing center in the '80 Finals' date=' and

2. Jordan's 63-point game.

[/quote']

I would put Willis Reed limping onto the floor at Madison Square Garden against the Lakers in game 7 of the NBA Finals in 1970 up there. The Knicks won the game. Reed scored 4 points. Did he inspire his team? Sure. But Reed's appearance has taken on mythic New York proportions in the retelling. Clyde Frazier's 36 points and 19 assists had a little something to do with the win too.

[JMS]

But you don't have Lebron in the top five even though he's already surpassed or tied Doc by every metric you can imagine. (Unless you are equating ABA titles with NBA titles).

I do count ABA statistics because Dr. J was arguable the greatest Basketball player alive during that period' date=' which means he has 3 championships to Lebron's 1, 4 MVP's, and 16 all star appearances.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 12:50 PM ----------

[/color]PS

1. Magic playing center in the '80 Finals' date=' and

2. Jordan's 63-point game.

1. Magic was a center during the opening tip and a few other points during the game. Jim Chones actually played the majority of the minutes at center. Actually, calling it over-rated is not fair, because Magic was awesome in that game. But it's rated highly for the wrong reasons. It also in that weird place with the Miracle on Ice. Everyone seems to think the Miracle on Ice game was for the Gold Medal and everyone seems to think that Magic's "game at center" was Game 7.

[/quote']

:doh: Stop it... now you are just being silly..

Over rated, but Magic was awesome? Arguable the greatest game of Magics career, over-rated?

In game 6, Magic Johnson played what may have been the greatest game of his career. Playing on the road in Philadelphia, Magic (a 6'9" point guard) started the game at center and eventually played all 5 positions in a dominating performance. Scoring a game-high 42 points and grabbing a game-high 15 rebounds—and handing out 7 assists—Magic Johnson led the Lakers to the NBA crown. The Lakers also received strong performances from Jamaal Wilkes with 37 points, and Norm Nixon. Jim Chones played strong defense on 76er center Darryl Dawkins, while Mark Landsberger provided rebounding off the bench, and little used Brad Holland chipped in 8 key points.

Magic Johnson's performance in game 6 and the series earned him the 1980 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player. What made Magic Johnson's performance even more remarkable was that he was an NBA rookie—and, indeed, one who had left college after only two years, and was only 20 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_NBA_Finals

2. Jordan scored 63 points in a double over time game in which he took 41 shots and 21 free throws in 53 minutes. A game his team lost in a series in which his 50-loss team was swept. I mean' date=' it was kind of amazing but he barely shot 50 percent in that game. That was more a test of endurance than actual basketball skill.[/quote']

OMG! Jordan played 18 games that year, breaking his foot in game 3 of the season. The bulls wanted him to sit out the rest of the season but he insisted on coming back late in the year. His performance was one of the most gutsy performances ever. Dropping a playoff record 63 points on one of the greatest NBA teams in history, at the Boston Garden.... His record still stands!

Larry Bird said.. "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us,", "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

That was Jordan's second season in the league. If that was not an example of someone lifting his game to rise to a challenge I don't know what is....

Both of these performances displayed what made each player so freaking special. If Lebron was in the finals and Karem was hurt... we know what he would do... He would roll over and play dead!!! We know it because he's done it! Magic scores 42, grabs 15 boards and earns the finals MVP playing every position, AS A ROOKIE... Hell in Jordan's position Lebron doesn't even dress! He's done that too.

Both of those games displayed in a microcosm what made Magic and Jordan special. Lifting their games when nobody thought they could.. Hell and I don't even like either all that much; I'm a Celtics fan too.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It probably was the best game of Magic's career, but it is remembered for the wrong reasons. That's my point.

I'm being super nuanced here.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 01:32 PM ----------

Clyde Frazier's 36 points and 19 assists had a little something to do with the win too.

I agree with that.

However, I bet Clyde had no less than five naked European stewardesses in his bed that night. So...he was rewarded.

[Sticksboi05]

63 against the '86 Celtics is 63 against the '86 Celtics no matter how you look at it. And the '86 Bulls were a one-man team. Pippen wasn't there yet.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

63 against the '86 Celtics is 63 against the '86 Celtics no matter how you look at it. And the '86 Bulls were a one-man team. Pippen wasn't there yet.

I know. It's a ****load of points.

I just think Jordan had 20 more impressive games where he didn't take 40 shots.

[JMS]

It probably was the best game of Magic's career' date=' but it is remembered for the wrong reasons. That's my point.

I'm being super nuanced here.

[/quote']

You really aren't. I used three performances to illustrate what made Larry, Magic and Michael such awsome players. Specifically saying it was the ability to lift their games and rise to an occasion. I gave those examples of them achieving this in spectacular fashion. Your response was nonsensical because you evidently missed what I was saying.

And I still find you guilty on Wilt. He doesn't belong on the all time great list. He was a top 5 great talent (maybe 1), not a top 5 great player or competitor.

( Crap, I hate it when I get on a roll and loose my perspective... I put Wilt on my top 5.. :doh:,,, You had him I think 4 and I put him 5, So I guess in retrospect I'm being too hard on you, and Wilt... Although I do find my arguements in this thread more persuasive than my post on the Center's thread.. )...

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 02:47 PM ----------

I know. It's a ****load of points.

I just think Jordan had 20 more impressive games where he didn't take 40 shots.

That was Jordan's most impresive game when you put it in perspective.. I'm sorry you are still talking out of your butt.

Second year in the league, hurt all year, comes back anyway, basically goes one on 5 with arguable the best starting 5 in the history of franchised sports on the road; dropping in a NBA playoff record 63 points and nearly wins in double overtime.... Are you kidding me?

[Sticksboi05]

I know. It's a ****load of points.

I just think Jordan had 20 more impressive games where he didn't take 40 shots.

I agree he's had more impressive games. Putting the team on his back in 1998 in Game 6 was more impressive. His FG% was subpar but Pippen could barely play so it was him and role players. The final minute, the defensive play on Malone trapping him in the corner and stealing the ball, is almost more impressive than the go-ahead crossover shot.

[JMS]

I bump theee!

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Jordan's 63 points against Boston was not the most impressive game of his career

he has had more. I would say Jordan putting up 50 against Charlotte back in 2001 was more impressive.

as for this thread

1. Lebron. I dont care about his age right now, he is the best.

2. Bird

3. Havlicek

4. Doctor

5. Elgin Baylor

[CrypticVillain]

I was wondering where I was at when this debate took place on Thursday. I wasn't at work... I was at home sleep.

So since I wasn't there in the heat of the moment, I am going to take the punk way out and say I agree with all of you.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Worthy was good. But he had the easiest job of any small forward in NBA history. As I pointed out on another thread' date=' I am no fan of Dominique. But if all Dominique had to do for ten years was be a [b']finisher on fast breaks with Magic,[/b] we would consider him one of the ten greatest players ever. If Worthy ends up in Atlanta, he makes maybe two or three All Star teams as Bird's backup. Worthy had a very good career and one transcedent game. Let's not go crazy about him.

well thats sad because a) that is a great skill in and of itself b)he did A LOT more than that c) the Lakers probably dont play great transition ball without Worthy. He was as big a reason for that as Magic.

Worthy was a GREAT low post scorer. Dennis Rodman said he was the toughest player he ever had to guard because of all the moves he had in the post and how quick his first step was. That and he could take you in the low post, high post, and had a great jump shot. The post 1985 Lakers needed Worthy to score a lot in the post in important moments because of Kareem's decline.

Before Worthy started having his own injuries, he was the Lakers most reliable low post scorer in the late 80s.

---------- Post added July-20th-2012 at 11:11 PM ----------

I would take Worthy over a guy like Pippen any day of the week too

[JMS]

Jordan's 63 points against Boston was not the most impressive game of his career

he has had more. I would say Jordan putting up 50 against Charlotte back in 2001 was more impressive.

You mean 51 in 2002 with the Wizards?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/games/2001-12-29-wizards-hornets.htm

Why is scoring 50 against a team history won't remember during the regular season; more impressive than dropping 63 on one of the best teams in NBA history, during the playoffs.?

And just to note, the reason why Jordan was so impressive wasn't just that he set an NBA playoff scoring record. It's that if he were any other player he wouldnt' have even dressed. It's that Jordan had no reason to show up, no reason to bust his butt. He knew his team wasn't going anywhere escpecially against the best team in the league that year in the first round of the playoffs. That Jordan was even on the court after breaking his foot in game 3 of that season and only returning to the roster basically for that series over the objections of his team is what iwas so freaking impressive.

Lebron has 1 champtionship. 1 finals mvp, 4 league mvp's .

Bird has 3 champtionships 2 finals mvp. 3 league mvp's

Dr J has 3 championships, and 4 League mvp's.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

You mean 51 in 2002 with the Wizards?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/games/2001-12-29-wizards-hornets.htm

Why is scoring 50 against a team history won't remember during the regular season; more impressive than dropping 63 on one of the best teams in NBA history, during the playoffs.?

I meant the 51 he scored in 2001

because he was 38 years old. He scored 51 in that game, 2 nights after that game he scored 45 against the Nets. Did it on over 50% shooting too.

And just to note, the reason why Jordan was so impressive wasn't just that he set an NBA playoff scoring record. It's that if he were any other player he wouldnt' have even dressed. It's that Jordan had no reason to show up, no reason to bust his butt. He knew his team wasn't going anywhere escpecially against the best team in the league that year in the first round of the playoffs. That Jordan was even on the court after breaking his foot in game 3 of that season and only returning to the roster basically for that series over the objections of his team is what iwas so freaking impressive.

no offense, but this feels like it came out of an ESPN radio personalities mouth.

It was very impressive, but its not the most impressive game in his career. 55 against the Knicks 17 days after coming back from a 2 year lay off was more impressive to me.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It was very impressive, but its not the most impressive game in his career. 55 against the Knicks 17 days after coming back from a 2 year lay off was more impressive to me.

That was insane. He was nowhere close to basketball shape.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So....we all agree that Lebron is #1 now, right?