Top 5 small forwards in NBA history

[Kosher Ham]

No disrespect intended.Seriously.

I think JMS has an issue that many or most us do not have.

I am starting to think he does not press "post' on his replies or statements.

The typos seem to be odd, considering the posts.

[Monte51Coleman]

I put Lebron in my top 5.... I do think it's weak he had to go to a proven winner to win his championship vs win one in Cleveland.

What do you mean by a proven winner? The organization- because it won in 2006? Wade because he'd won a championship?

The Miami Heat in the years between the 2006 Championship and Lebron's arrival accomplished the following:

2007- Lost in the first round of the playoffs in 4 games

2008- Didn't make the playoffs

2009- Lost in the first round of the playoffs in 7 games

2010- Lost in the first round of the playoffs in 5 games

[PeterMP]

The fact that when Pippen's rookie contact was over he immediately signed with another team for 5x's as much kind of suggests his contract was undervalued. The fact that over the next few years after that his compensation went up to 10x even though his championship days were behind him... kind of suggests you are wrong. The fact that his salary went down as he won more championships again is a tell tail he was undervalued. The FACT that he was probable one of the top 5 players in the league, and was the sixth highest paid player on the bulls championship season of 1998 again kinda suggests he was under paid. The fact he wasn't even making starter money on a horrable team like the Wizards in 1998should have clued you in too.

Clearly if none of these facts are persuasive to you, you just are unable to impartially evaluate the data being too wedded to your aformentioned position...

Yes he signed a six year rookie contract... and yes that contract allowed the bulls to exersize an option to extend it for 5 more years... Yes he did that.

His rookie contract didn't allow the Bulls to exercise and option.

Pippen signed a new extension prior to the 1991 season.

It wasn't a option that was built into his rookie contract. It was a new and separate extension that Pippen wanted that year.

It wasn't undervalued at the time as because that year he would make only $500,000 less than Jordan, and even the year that Jordan was out he was making only about $1 million than Jordan and only $100,000 less than Hakeem.

I believe in 1991 when he signed it, in terms of total value, it was the largest contract in NBA history, though that's by memory and due to the number of years involved.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/28/sports/sports-of-the-times-pippen-is-right-but-wrong.html

[Predicto]

No....no....no....

Last week or perhaps two weeks ago' date=' JMS declared that Lebron is 31 and only has one title as a second banana. It's further proof to my theory that he has actually never watched an NBA game. That and not knowing anything about Bernard King's 1984 season or apparently that he even had a career prior to the Wizards.[/quote']

[Predicto]

I think you make a strong point for Pippen..... I find it very hard to drop Dr. Jay though. As good as Pippen was, he was still the second best player on the Bulls, and with everybody concentrating on Mike, it's very difficult to place him above guys who were the leaders of their team and still had better numbers than Pippen did.

I mean Dr. Jay, was Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan. He was the guy that the NBA merged with the ABA to get. He was the guy who's poster every kid had in his bedroom a decade before they had Jordan's.

Dr J. was also overrated because of his awesome flashy style. He was a very entertaining player who thrived during a weak time when the talent was diluted between two leagues. His stats were astronomical in the run and gun ABA, but dropped drastically once he joined the NBA (although they did go partway back up again eventually). He didn't play much defense, much less play defense like Jordan. His outside shot was mediocre. He only won one NBA title, and that was as the second banana on a stacked team where Moses Malone was the main man.

Jordan and Erving both could defy gravity, but other than that I don't think they compare very well.

[PeterMP]

Dr J. was also overrated because of his awesome flashy style. He was a very entertaining player who thrived during a weak time when the talent was diluted between two leagues. His stats were astronomical in the run and gun ABA, but dropped drastically once he joined the NBA (although they did go partway back up again eventually). He didn't play much defense, much less play defense like Jordan. His outside shot was mediocre. He only won one NBA title, and that was as the second banana on a stacked team where Moses Malone was the main man.

Jordan and Erving both could defy gravity, but other than that I don't think they compare very well.

My problem is I think Bird, Lebron, and Pierce are all better than Pippen. I don't remember Dr. J at his best so I won't comment on him.

And I think Wilkins is REALLY close if not better.

(In these conversations, I try and go to one of the players signature games/series and what I think would happen if you put the other guy there. For Wilkins, I go back to that game 7 against the Celtics and where Wilkins dropped 40+ and ask in that series what do the Hawks do with Pippen at SF instead of Wilkins, and I don't think the series is that close w/ Pippen instead of Wilkins. I don't think Pippen, Rivers, Willis, Wittman, and Rollins can play with DJ, Ainge, Bird, Parish, and McHale (looking at that game Whittman is the Hawks 2nd leading scorer w/ 22, while the Celtics got 34 from Bird and 33 from McHale) much less lose by 2 in a game 7.).

It is harder to do going the other way with Pippen because I don't know how well Wilkins could have played the point forward position, but I suspect that if I had Jordan and Wilkins, I wouldn't put Wilkins at the point forward so I'd be playing a different scheme, and I'd still win a ton of games.)

And I don't think I've seen 4 of the top 5 SF in league history and certainly not 5 of the top 6 (in no order Bird, Lebron, Pierce, X, Pippen, and Wilkins).

I think people mis-remeber how great Pippen was like, and "remember" he guarded Magic for large stretches and even most of games in the 1991 finals.

[Going Commando]

Dr J. was also overrated because of his awesome flashy style. He was a very entertaining player who thrived during a weak time when the talent was diluted between two leagues. His stats were astronomical in the run and gun ABA, but dropped drastically once he joined the NBA (although they did go partway back up again eventually). He didn't play much defense, much less play defense like Jordan. His outside shot was mediocre. He only won one NBA title, and that was as the second banana on a stacked team where Moses Malone was the main man.

Jordan and Erving both could defy gravity, but other than that I don't think they compare very well.

I don't know that it's fair to judge Dr. J in the way you're doing--by the standards of Jordan and the post 80's NBA.

Dr. J was a product of his time, like every player. He didn't play defense because nobody really played defense then. They didn't know how, it just wasn't really done. Playing expert high level defense just wasn't really conceptualized in that era. Is it fair to kill him for not being a great defender when he played in an era where that didn't matter?

He was flashy because that's how the great players played--it's how everyone knew they were great. The game was far less sophisticated in his day. Pre-merger pro basketball still had that whiff of semi-pro Harlem Globetrotters ball to it. Showmanship WAS a big part of the equation of being a great player. Especially in the ABA. That stuff seems irrelevant in the more sophisticated and professional NBA that exists today. But it was certainly important then.

Dr. J changed the game. He changed the look of the game in a way only Jordan matched. He's probably the second most important player in the history of pro basketball. That factors into his greatness. Same for George Mikan and Oscar Robertson, who don't hold up as well when judged against modern standards either.