Obamacare...(new title): GOP DEATH PLAN: Don-Ryan's Express

[chipwhich]

The problem with the US healthcare system.    The reason why we pay almost twice as much as the next most expensive system is entirely at the feet of the big FOUR cartels which dominate our healthcare system.   Insurance Companies,  drug companies, and hospital companies ( service providers ), and LAWYERS...      They exist in worlds where competition and the free market doesn't effect their bottom line and they complain about any legislation wich tries to make them accountable to consumers.

 

Fixed that for you....

[JMS]

That the ACA was a Heritage foundation idea is a myth. A mandate was their idea but what was mandated is where the ACA differs significantly (and significantly is an major understatement) from what Heritage proposed. Heritage wanted to mandate only catastrophic coverage.   

 

Actually I don't think that's accurate.   The mandates were the cornerstone of the Heritage Foundation's idea, as it was the cornerstone of Nixon's proposal in the early 1970's and Mitt Romney's massachusettes plans which both like Obamacare were based on the Original Heritage Foundation idea.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tulane Skins Fan]

You circled the wrong parts though. Contact between households and society? Imagine if Obama said that.

How are lawyers a cartel and how do we cause healthcare costs to rise?

[JMS]

Fixed that for you....

 

Actually Lawyers aren't the problem at all.   That's just more scape goating by the cartels..   Lawsuites account for less than 1% of all dollars spent on healthcare in the United States....   So eliminating malpractice would only save 1% of costs.   Obamacare has already had a significantly more positive effect on healthcare costs than such a step which would only further remove the consumer accountability from a system which is already almost entirely devoid of consumer choices or accountability.

 

U.S. malpractice lawsuits less than 1% of healthcare costs

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013/04/30/US-malpractice-lawsuits-less-than-1-of-healthcare-costs/UPI-33391367349367/

Edited December 2, 2013 by JMS

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Actually Lawyers aren't the problem at all.   That's just more scape goating by the cartels..   Lawsuites account for less than 1% of all dollars spent on healthcare in the United States....   So eliminating malpractice would only save 1% of costs.   Obamacare has already had a significantly more positive effect on healthcare costs than such a step which would only further remove the consumer accountability from a system which is already almost entirely devoid of consumer choices or accountability.

All true. Further more than forty stares have tort reform already, and healthcare costs in those states continue to rise faster than inflation.

Even tea party activists are off this explanation now as it is unsupported by the facts. Not to mention tort reform villages the seventh amendment.

Tort reform is nothing more than corporate welfare at the expense of individual liberties and rights.

[JMS]

They're not of course there are all kinds of added mandatory procedures to even the Bronze plans.

 

 

Not manditory procedures.   Manditory coverage for proceedures.   Prior to Obamacare it was possible to buy policies which wouldn't cover you if you got sick and needed certain proceedures.    Most Americans were under such plans.   Which is why health costs were the #1 reason cited in bankruptcies in this country even for folks with Insurance.

 

What's going on now is Obamacare says insurance has to work for sick folks too.    Which afterall is the reason why we freaking have insurance in the first place.   If you get cancer,  need a kidney,   or need some sort other expensive treatment your insurance company which has been collecting your primiums for 20 years can't tell you that your plan doesn't cover that type of illness.

[chipwhich]

Actually Lawyers aren't the problem at all.

 

Well they are, the fear of malpractice lawsuits drives insurance costs.

Our healthcare system is driven by lawyers which drive costs unlike any other country in the world.

[JMS]

Well they are, the fear of malpractice lawsuits drives insurance costs.

Our healthcare system is driven by lawyers which drive costs unlike any other country in the world.

 

 

So you are suggesting that the "fear of something which costs less than 1% healthcare costs",   is a primary driver for why healthcare costs have been growing at two or three times the rate of inflation for more than four decades?

 

But these alternate abuses are of lesser concern..

*- It is not uncommon for insurance companies to get hospitals to knock their bills down by up to 95 percent, but if you are uninsured or you don’t know how the system works then you are out of luck.

 

*-Profits at U.S. health insurance companies increased by 56 percent during 2009.

 

*-According to a report published in The American Journal of Medicine, medical bills are a major factor in more than 60 percent of the personal bankruptcies in the United States. Of those bankruptcies that were caused by medical bills, approximately 75 percent of them involved individuals that actually did have health insurance.

 

*- According to a report by Health Care for America Now, America’s five biggest for-profit health insurance companies ended 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion.

 

*-According to an article on the Mother Jones website, health insurance premiums for small employers in the U.S. increased 180% between 1999 and 2009.

 

*-Between 2000 and 2006, wages in the United States increased by 3.8%, but health care premiums increased by 87%.

 

*-There were more than two dozen pharmaceutical companies that made over a billion dollars in profits in 2008.

 

*-Each year, tens of billions of dollars is spent on pharmaceutical marketing in the United States alone.

 

*-It is estimated that hospitals overcharge Americans by about 10 billion dollars every single year.

 

*-One trained medical billing advocate says that over 90 percent of the medical bills that she has audited contain “gross overcharges“.

 

Edited December 2, 2013 by JMS

[JMS]

Here is the deal.   Does Obamacare suck.   sure.    Did our system suck more before Obamacare... absolutely...

Obamacare was a modest step in the right direction,  we should demand a lot more.    The world have found better solutions on how to deliver healthcare services much more efficiently than our system.   We know this because the Organization which we set up to study healthcare delivery systems sixty years ago,  a system which we continue to fund today,  tells us so and has told us so for 40 years.

 

Positives about Obamacare...

 

*-Your insurance will actually assist you if you get sick.

*-Healthcare cost increases since passing Obamacare are at a 30 year low.

*-Our healthcare system will actually cover tens of millions of more Americans.

 

 

Most of the bad things about Obamacare are frankly things Obamacare didn't address...

 

 

 

USA TODAY

 

Health care costs rose by only 1.3% a year from 2010 to 2013, a new report from the White House Council on Economic Advisers shows. That's the lowest increase in a three-year period on record. White House officials cite the 2010 Affordable Care Act as a main factor in lowering costs.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/20/health-care-spending-growth/3650243/

 

Edited December 2, 2013 by JMS

[China]

Nevada's sex workers embrace Obamacare

 

MOUND HOUSE, Nev. (KRNV & MyNews4.com) - There have been a number of critics to the Affordable Care Act but the President's signature legislation is getting support from an unusual source; working girls at Nevada's legal brothels.  

The girls at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch say they support the new legislation.  Taylor Lee said; "Having this profession, we aren't exactly offered group health insurance.  It's hard because I do have a pre-existing condition so I really support Obamacare.  I'm excited."  

Taylor Lee's pre-exisiting condition didn't help, but that wasn't the only reason she was denied health coverage prior to Obamacare.  Before the new law she and the other girls who work at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch said getting health insurance was impossible because carriers refused to cover them because they worked in a legal brothel. Bella Dawn said; "I switched professions and I wrote it down and they denied it because of the profession I'm in."  Caressa Kisses agrees adding; "They equate us to illegal working girls who have very high STD's and AIDS rates which we have none of the above.  We're legal, licensed prostitutes. 

The girls said it didn't matter to insurance carriers that Nevada's brothels are highly regulated.  Kisses noted; "I see the doctor every week because it is state mandated.  We're tested weekly and monthly for blood.  We have to be cleared by health professionals and a physician to work in the house."

So the new law that allows everyone to obtain a health care plan is very welcome news. "I'm very excited about being able to get a health plan now because of Obamacare," said Amy Page.  Kisses said health coverage is very much needed by working girls; "We're independent contractors.  We have to get our own insurance but this is truly a blessing.  I hope they work the kinks out and that affordable health care happens for all because it is really needed."

 

Click for the full article and video

[chipwhich]

Here is the deal.   Does Obamacare suck.   sure.    Did our system suck more before Obamacare... absolutely...

Obamacare was a modest step in the right direction,  we should demand a lot more.    The world have found better solutions on how to deliver healthcare services much more efficiently than our system.   We know this because the Organization which we set up to study healthcare delivery systems sixty years ago,  a system which we continue to fund today,  tells us so and has told us so for 40 years.

 

Positives about Obamacare...

 

*-Your insurance will actually assist you if you get sick.

*-Healthcare cost increases since passing Obamacare are at a 30 year low.

*-Our healthcare system will actually cover tens of millions of more Americans.

 

 

Most of the bad things about Obamacare are frankly things Obamacare didn't address...

 

My healthcare costs have been skyrocketing, I am not sure where there is a 30 year low.

 

The insurance will assist you once you get sick*  (if and when you meet the deductible, and if you can afford the deductible)  A lot of the uninsured will struggle to pay the premium, the deductible will bankrupt them.

 

Our healthcare system will cover those who choose to sign up and only when they meet their deductible.

It's catastrophe insurance, nothing more.

 

As far as how our laws of our country entail a lot more than the 1% you propose, we can just disagree.

[JMS]

My healthcare costs have been skyrocketing, I am not sure where there is a 30 year low.

 

 

Across the board since the Affordable Care act passed in 2010....   ( last 3 years )  cost increases for private companies have been cut by more than half....  down from 4% growth to 1.6% growth...   Medicare costs have actually been reduced....   Heathcare cost increases are today at their lowest rate on record....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/20/health-care-spending-growth/3650243/

 

 

 

The insurance will assist you once you get sick* (if and when you meet the deductible, and if you can afford the deductible) A lot of the uninsured will struggle to pay the premium, the deductible will bankrupt them.

 

 

Which really makes no sense.    So today a dude get's sick and incures 50k in expenses.....   Our system,  meaning you and I have to basically incur 50k of costs....    Now you are saying his 1000$ deductable will bankrupt that dude...   So the system will have to basically over 1k?   and you are gripping?

 

The reality is even poor people benifit from having insurance, and society benifits too.

 

Our healthcare system will cover those who choose to sign up and only when they meet their deductible.

It's catastrophe insurance, nothing more.

 

 

?  catastrophic insurance with free preventative healthcare visits....    This is another silly complaint.....   folks are angry that insurance companies now have to cover all sorts of illnesses which may or may not pertain to individuals for the benifit of the population;  and then complain it's only catastrophic insurance.    You can't have it both ways....

 

Facts are the mandates don't cover everything in the top plans,   but they do mandate your insurance cover the basics,  which is more than insurance companies used to cover.

[chipwhich]

Across the board since the Affordable Care act passed in 2010....   ( last 3 years )  cost increases for private companies have been cut by more than half....  down from 4% growth to 1.6% growth...   Medicare costs have actually been reduced....   Heathcare cost increases are today at their lowest rate on record....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/20/health-care-spending-growth/3650243/

 

Which really makes no sense.    So today a dude get's sick and incures 50k in expenses.....   Our system,  meaning you and I have to basically incur 50k of costs....    Now you are saying his 1000$ deductable will bankrupt that dude...   So the system will have to basically over 1k?   and you are gripping?

 

The reality is even poor people benifit from having insurance, and society benifits too.

 

?  catastrophic insurance with free preventative healthcare visits....    This is another silly complaint.....   folks are angry that insurance companies now have to cover all sorts of illnesses which may or may not pertain to individuals for the benifit of the population;  and then complain it's only catastrophic insurance.    You can't have it both ways....

 

Facts are the mandates don't cover everything in the top plans,   but they do mandate your insurance cover the basics,  which is more than insurance companies used to cover.

 

The problem is you skirt the real issue to prop up the extreme issue.

 

First the deductibles aren't $1,000.

 

Second, I am in my 40's and haven't spent anywhere near 50K EVER on insurance, but I do have coverage and if a CATASTROPHE occurs and I need that 50K it's there.  Obamacare does give you that.

 

That 50K dude you are referring to can say screw it, I am not signing up, so you and I end up paying anyways.

You could get cheaper preventative health care visits by simply paying out of pocket.

Insurance companies are figuring out what average families spend each year on insurance and they are adjusting the deductibles accordingly.

Great that the basics are covered, how much is it going to cost someone out of pocket each year to get the basics?

I assume a large population of uninsured have low wages, so I view this as just a tax on the poor.

[JMS]

The problem is you skirt the real issue to prop up the extreme issue.

 

 

Obamacare doesn't set your deductable dude.  I have a 20$ deductable,  I was attempting to identify an extreme example of a high deductable to fit your critism.    Deductables are dependent upon the plan you pick.

 

 

Second, I am in my 40's and haven't spent anywhere near 50K EVER on insurance, but I do have coverage and if a CATASTROPHE occurs and I need that 50K it's there. Obamacare does give you that.

 

 

Yeah,  with Obamacare if you get sick and need your insurance you have a much better chance you will be covered...  which is a good thing.. we agree.  

 

 

 

(1)That 50K dude you are referring to can say screw it, I am not signing up, so you and I end up paying anyways.

(2)You could get cheaper preventative health care visits by simply paying out of pocket.

Insurance companies are figuring out what average families spend each year on insurance and they are adjusting the deductibles accordingly.

(3)Great that the basics are covered, how much is it going to cost someone out of pocket each year to get the basics?

(4)I assume a large population of uninsured have low wages, so I view this as just a tax on the poor.

 

(1)  The 50k dude can't say "screw it"...  if he doesn't get insurance there is a penelty which basically amounts to the cost of insurance.  So their isn't any financial benifit in him trying to opt out.    That's the idea behind a mandate.

 

(2)  You can't get "cheaper" healthcare visits by paying out of pocket.   Folks who pay out of pocket pay significantly higher prices for services under our system....   That's predates Obamacare...  like orders of magnatude more expensive.

 

(3)  Costs vary depending upon which plan you sign up for and what subsidies you are eligible for.    Some folks who are too wealthy for medicare can get coverage for 50$ a month....  Other folks can pay $500...     Some folks who were paying $1000 are finding alternative plans which now cover them for much less.

 

(4)  A lot of foks in this country which didn't work for a fortune 500 or the US government couldn't buy insurance.    and if they could buy insurance it didn't cover them when they were most in need..    Obamacare fixes that...    The argument that only wealthy people benifit from insurance is a croc.    The complaint that everybody must get insurence I personally find muted against the benifit that everybody (most folks) will be able to get insurance.

Edited December 2, 2013 by JMS

[CrazyZeb]

You have a $20 deductible?

[twa]

You have a $20 deductible?

probably means co-pay

 

Does Obamacare even cover sick visits?.....not until the bronze plan owners pay thousands from what I've seen.

 

If insuring the poor is cheaper than the former status quo then why are the already insured rates rising like crazy?

[chipwhich]

Yeah, he doesn't have a $20 deductible, he has a $20 copay.

 

This is why you can't discuss the issue with most people, they will get it though, when it hits them in the face.

 

Big $$$$ insurance for the poor.

 

And JMS dude, I know Obamacare doesn't set the deductible LOL

[chipwhich]

Disappointing that JMS disappeared from this thread now knowing he doesn't know what a deductible is vs a copay. 

[PeterMP]

probably means co-pay

 

Does Obamacare even cover sick visits?.....not until the bronze plan owners pay thousands from what I've seen.

 

If insuring the poor is cheaper than the former status quo then why are the already insured rates rising like crazy?

 

1.  As always, prices don't necessarily reflect costs.

 

2.  I'd have to see some evidence that prices are going up like crazy.

 

3.  Some of the issue is related to the coverage required under Obamacare.

 

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/02/fact-check-premiums-will-go-up/

 

And issues of what insurance companies can do in terms of advertising rates.

 

From what I can see, JMSs' salent points are right.  The rate at which health care costs are going up is slowing down.  And the person making $50,000 K will probably be paying in in terms of the tax even if he doesn't buy insurance so he's paid some to the "system" that helps "us" cover his catastrophic care if he needs it.

[skinsmarydu]

 

It gets better and better.

What you going to do Skinsmarydu?

About what? I was asked my height, weight, and date of birth when I joined my husband's policy. No other questions. (Sorry I'm late to answer, didn't see the call-out till now.)

And I'm responding to what the topic was at the time, whether smokers should admit to it when asked...

[twa]

Peter,   I would say health care spending is going down from those millions out of a job and the economic mess.

 

as far as rates increasing  that will become clearer to you and others insulated so far over the next year.

 

naturally the mandates result in higher rates.....and more federal bailouts

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/us/politics/insurers-are-offered-assistance-for-losses.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

 

Skinsmary, lying on a mandated question on smoking is ins fraud and has numerous possible repercussions....as does not lying in this circus act. 

 

Whatever happened to the promises of keeping ins and lower rates?

 

How many thousands will a Bronze plan owner have to pay before their kids will have ins pay for a ear infection?....can anyone answer?

 

 

add

http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/02/man-receives-obamacare-quote-62-days-after-first-attempt/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

And according to Petno, his insurance costs would shoot up by 52% for a worse plan than the one his family currently has.

 

Edited December 3, 2013 by twa

[Larry]

Admiring the number of conservatives claiming, well, all kinds of. things.

The government is going to mandate blood, urine, and hair testing as part of tax audits.

They're complaining that Obamacare mandates things. (In fact, it's unconstitutional). AND mad that it doesn't mandate enough.

Private insurance companies are going to charge people double what they're paying now, for insurance that won't pay for anything. (And it's Obama's fault, because he's making them do it).

[twa]

Admiring  people deflecting 

 

How many thousands will a Bronze plan owner have to pay before their kids will have ins pay for a ear infection?....can anyone answer?

[Larry]

Admiring  people deflecting 

 

How many thousands will a Bronze plan owner have to pay before their kids will have ins pay for a ear infection?....can anyone answer?

Can you?

Answer's complicated, isn't it?

Here's a simpler one:

Can you actually state your point?

[JMS]

 

If insuring the poor is cheaper than the former status quo then why are the already insured rates rising like crazy?

 

Insuring the poor is cheaper today under Obamacare than prior to the passing of Obamacare.  Medicare today costs 5% less than it did prior to passing Obamacare....

 

And as already discussed  the cost increases in private health insurance have been cut in half.    Taken together healthcare cost increases are at their lowest rate since we've been tracking this metric.    So that directly refutes your proposition that  "rates are rising like crazy".    Rates are rising in the last three years since Obamacare passed at less than half the rate they rose in the previous 10 years prior to Obamacare.

 

http://www.usatoday....growth/3650243/