Is Kyle not equally, if not more to blame? (Than Rex)

[VRIEL1]

^ Rome wasn't built in a day. Funny how fans know it takes about 3 yrs minimum to get the team where it needs to be with a new HC, but for what ever reason they feel the need to complain that it didn't happen over night. The team got the scheme in their first yr. They beefed up the defense and running game in their second. How about we be patient and hopefully the team fixes their QB and passing issues by next year before everyone wants to throw in the towel.

[Skinsinparadise]

Me too. this is why I would think twice before killing Kyle on that play. Before we played too scared to close out games and teams knew it. This is not to say that we shouldn't play smart, so ASF i get what you're saying. But it was an opportunity to close the game out on an aggressive/unpredictable call. Had the play been successful we would be here praising the playcalling. But because Rex couldn't get his head out his ***, we're here describing the call as nonsense.

Agree. It's not like asking Rex to complete a 10 yard passing play on a down that wasn't an obvious passing down is asking for the moon. I don't mean this sarcastically but ASF is the guy telling us how Rex Grossman is a special QB. if Rexy is that good, make that throw, ESPECIALLY in a game where the running game was working. Its not like we are asking him to lob a hail Mary for a victory.

I love Gibbs, but in his 2nd tenure, I learned to get a bad feeling when he would just run at the end, take time off the clock, and give the opponent one more try. We were burned multiple times that way. I don't think mixing one short/medium pass in the mix of plays is us being that daring. The one time I didn't like Kyle's play calling was in Dallas, early in the 4th quarter where he was disproportionally throwing the ball when we had the lead. Towards the end of this game we weren't disproportionally throwing and IMO it rarely works when you exclusively do any one thing without mixing it up even if its just a little.

[authentic]

IMO it rarely works when you exclusively do any one thing without mixing it up even if its just a little.

Absolutely!!!

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

I love Gibbs, but in his 2nd tenure, I learned to get a bad feeling when he would just run at the end, take time off the clock, and give the opponent one more try. We were burned multiple times that way. I don't think mixing one short/medium pass in the mix of plays is us being that daring. The one time I didn't like Kyle's play calling was in Dallas, early in the 4th quarter where he was disproportionally throwing the ball when we had the lead. Towards the end of this game we weren't disproportionally throwing and IMO it rarely works when you exclusively do any one thing without mixing it up even if its just a little.

That sounds great, but it still ignores context then and context now.

Context then: running game was rarely dominant, aside from the Portis "carry the team" stretch runs in late 2005 and 2009.

Context Sunday: Rams couldn't stop Torain. If they stop Torain for the first time on first down, than still burns an extra 30 seconds on the clock and gives two more chances. If the pass fails on first down, the clock stops, and now second and third down are passing downs. Very possible to go 3 and out with almost no time consumed on the clock.

Again, Torain's median run was 5.5 yards on first down. The Rams couldn't stop him before, and they couldn't stop him for three straight runs later in the game, with 2:11 to play. The right play on first down was always a run.

Against Dallas, the complicating factor was that rushing had largely failed against the Dallas defense. (Would have been nice to see Torain in that game.) So, there is your classic devil's trade: "run and probably fail, but burn the clock" vs "pass and risk not burning the clock but have chance for a drive."

I was annoyed by the play calling late against the Cowboys, but I understood it. The call on first and 10 against the Rams, 5:45 to play, made me furious. The difference was context.

Also, the emergence of the defense as a dominant force is now a factor. With a dominant defense, the OC can afford to burn 3 minutes off the game clock and punt (the risk of being conservative) when he has a dominant defense to protect the lead. You pass in those situations only when you don't trust your defense to hold the lead.

Remember when Belichick went for it on 4th and 2 from his own 28, against Peyton Manning and the Colts, when the Patriots had a 6-point lead and only 123 seconds to go? Crazy stuff, but that was Belichick saying that the team would rather win or lose the game on offense than depend on their defense to stop Manning.

The Redskins are now in the opposite position. They have a dominant defense (#3 or #4 in NFL) and an NFL-average offense. In that situation, the offense works the clock and grinds the ball on the ground. That was the smart play even without Torain playing like he was. With Torain on fire, it was the *only* play.

I watched Mike Shanahan's press conference after the game, and he went out of his way to deflect the rabid and leading reporter criticisms about Grossman. He squarely blamed Moss and Hightower for failing to make key catches (Moss created the first INT), and didn't take the bait about the second INT. My read? He was furious with the play call, like I was.

Rex didn't have a great game, but I didn't blame him for either INT, for different reasons. I really want to see coach's film to see what was going on downfield all game. It seemed like the deep routes went off into oblivion, and of course we don't see most of those routes when the QB elects not to pass deep. I want to see exactly how a "real" franchise QB would have put in a dominant performance, throwing to all those open guys who are out of the camera view.

Seemed like the Rams were playing coverage and daring Rex to make dumb mistakes. Which he avoided until that last stupid 1st and 10 play-action pass call with 5:45 to play. Even then, the Rams played the INT from the snap. They had learned to ignore play action and instead double up Moss and Davis. That's why the INT happened: the MLB dropping back underneath, giving double coverage to Moss.

Yes, Grossman should have lobbed it over the LB or thrown it away. But, the play was dumb from the start. By the end of the game, Moss was targeted 10 times for 5 completions, 2 INTs, 1 TD. He was tightly covered all game. Grossman knew this. He also knew that he needed to avoid an incompletion to keep the clock running. That's a stupid distraction for a stupid play, which tends to result in a pass being forced. Avoiding one bad play (incompletion, clock stop, 2nd and 10) results in a worse play (interception).

[darrelgreenie]

I agree w/ most of your post just wanted to point out this miscocpetion about the Dallas game.

I've been saying since last year, Kyle is a pass 1st OC and is always gonna think pass first.

I just hope that his style won't limit the running game too much.

Against Dallas, the complicating factor was that rushing had largely failed against the Dallas defense.

The lone scoring drive against the Cowboys came late in the 3rd qtr and was lead by Hightower and Hightower based play-action passing (including the TD pass):

5 runs (all Hightower) for 20 yards, 4.0 yards per carry

After this drive^^ the play calling 2 runs vs 11 passes.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

The lone scoring drive against the Cowboys came late in the 3rd qtr and was lead by Hightower and Hightower based play-action passing (including the TD pass):

5 runs (all Hightower) for 20 yards, 4.0 yards per carry

After this drive^^ 2 runs vs 11 passes.

You're right. I was trying to give Kyle some greater credibility for how he handled the end of the Cowboys game, but I felt the same way at the time.

I guess I'm saying: however bad it was against the Cowboys, it was worse in context against the Rams.

Someone needs to remind the OC that, late in the game, the job of the NFL-average unit (offense) is to avoid losing a game that the dominant unit (defense) is winning.

Then we had the 3rd and 21 blitz (8 men), and I was reminded that both coordinators were trying to show off at times. Each was going for their big knockout blow. Unnecessary. Rushing six would have been fine. That's pressure without recklessness.

[TSO]

You know, the defense gets played to play as well and Lauranaitis (spelling?) made a great play. That's all that was. It wasn't the play that was called (which actually worked as intended, as it totally sucked up the LBers because they were just waiting for us to give it to Torain) and it wasn't really Grossman because, when he turned around after the play fake, Lauranaitis was running for his life to get back into the zone he was responsible for in the middle of the field, so all Grossman saw was a LBer that was sucked into the play fake running with his back turned to the ball to get to Moss. He pulled the trigger and Luaranaitis made a great play, literally turning his head at the very last second to see the ball right there. It was impressive how fast he reacted to it... I'm not going to get carried away by it. Everything on that play worked except the Rams Lber made a very athletic and impressively quick recovering type play.

I just can't hang Kyle nor Grossman for it. The other team exists for crying out loud. They are NFL players. He made a great play, give him credit, and move on. I want Kyle to call that every time and I want Grossman to throw that every time... except maybe a tad bit higher with more touch, lol.

If Kyle doesn't call a play action anymore when the defense obviously is waiting for us to run it, thereby faking the heck out of them, and Grossman stops throwing the ball to a wide open Moss who ran a stick route after a play fake where the LBer bit and is running back to it with his back turned, we'll be worse off in the end. You call it, run it, execute it and you don't expect many LBers to make that play.

Please call it and run it like that again and again Kyle and Rex. Don't listen to anyone.

[skinsfan242]

I have one comment on Play Calling. NO-ONE on here knows what is a good good play call or bad play call. It's about execution. You can't just run 20 straight times with a lead and you can't just pass 20 straight times when down. Mix it up. If it works out it looks good if it doen't it looks bad. Play action pass when the run is working is usually a good call, if you execute.

We will never know if it was a good call or not, we just know the result...You just have to make the play.

[TSO]

I have one comment on Play Calling. NO-ONE on here knows what is a good good play call or bad play call. It's about execution. You can't just run 20 straight times with a lead and you can't just pass 20 straight times when down. Mix it up. If it works out it looks good if it doen't it looks bad. Play action pass when the run is working is usually a good call, if you execute.

We will never know if it was a good call or not, we just know the result...You just have to make the play.

No, it was actually clear that is was A GREAT playcall. Even the commentators commented on how well the play action sucked the Lbers in. They were so focused on stopping Torain that it was exactly what you call. Lauranaitis made a great play, period. One in which he probably doesn't make 9 times out of 10. It was unfortunate for us that he turned his head the split-second he did and his eyes were able to find the ball that quickly, and it was extremely fortunate for him and the Rams. I think Moss maybe telegraphed it a bit because Luaranaitis saw Moss stand there in anticipation for the ball before he saw anything else, which caused him to look back that instant only to find the ball right in his area. Grossman should've put the ball just a tad bit higher, but oh well... it was still a decent throw. I like to see my QB throwing the ball against LBers and DBs that have their back turned. The elite QBs all do that. Guys don't get wide open in the NFL, so you have to.

One of the things we murdered Campbell about here was that he always waited for the received to be really wide open, especially early in his career here. I like that Grossman isn't doing that.

[sportjunkie07]

i dont think so.

i have seen no substantial evidence to support the claim that kyle is a bad playcaller. usually its just people whining about playcalling in hindsight.

what i have seen is a slight turnaround (for the better imo) of the redskins offense since kyle came to town.

i have also seen him take a non existant offense of the texans and turn into a annual top 5 offense.

with more time, i think kyle will do the same here, but for now, our offensive ceiling is limited because we are missing pieces for a great offense, namely an elite qb and elite playmakers.

[skinsfan242]

No, it was actually clear that is was A GREAT playcall. Even the commentators commented on how well the play action sucked the Lbers in. They were so focused on stopping Torain that it was exactly what you call. Lauranaitis made a great play, period. One in which he probably doesn't make 9 times out of 10.

I thought that was a Great Play call to be honest. I'm just speaking in more general terms overall on this board, people preaching about play calls and the way people react to them.

[TSO]

i dont think so.

i have seen no substantial evidence to support the claim that kyle is a bad playcaller. usually its just people whining about playcalling in hindsight.

what i have seen is a slight turnaround (for the better imo) of the redskins offense since kyle came to town.

i have also seen him take a non existant offense of the texans and turn into a annual top 5 offense.

with more time, i think kyle will do the same here, but for now, our offensive ceiling is limited because we are missing pieces for a great offense, namely an elite qb and elite playmakers.

I'd say elite playmakers are more important right now. Grossman can get it done. He's not elite, but so isn't about 28 other QBs in the league. In my mind, only Rivers, Rodgers, Brady and Manning are elite and can carry a team with WRs that have no business being in the NFL and a non-existent running game. All of the other guys are much more dependent on the team supporting them as well, including Grossman.

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 02:51 PM ----------

I thought that was a Great Play call to be honest. I'm just speaking in more general terms overall on this board, people preaching about play calls and the way people react to them.

Oh, I know you were.

I was also reacting to the general tone on the board as well as this thread, not really you... though it may have seemed so.

And you know what else? I can't agree with the sentiment right now that we needed to play it more safe. Do the elite teams in this league do that? Honestly, we've never had that killer instinct and I'm glad our coaches are creating it right now in this team. No, we haven't actually executed yet and the other teams have made some miraculous plays in the process, but do I want them to change on that?

Absolutely not. I think it's funny that in back-to-back games we got burned on a "killer instinct" call on both sides, first with defense and now with offense. That's leading into the bye week as well. Very cool. We'll have time now to look at those things and fix that "killer instinct" call just a tad bit up. But you definintely don't stop making it. No way. Haslett should call that play all the time, except instead of a zero coverage you make it a zone and send one less on the blitz. Kyle should call that play a million times over... the LBers of the Rams got faked out of their boots... we just need to execute it a tad better and Grossman maybe throws that ball a bit higher. We can work on those things right now, but I refuse to be angry about the fact that we're going for the kill now late in games.

That is awesome if you're a Redskin fan that has had to endure extreme conservative playcalling for so long now. I don't even fault Gibbs for that... I don't think he had the team to be aggressive. I think we do right now.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

i have seen no substantial evidence to support the claim that kyle is a bad playcaller.

Who's saying that? I'm not.

I have a very specific complaint about how much passing Kyle is doing late in the game when the Redskins have the lead.

I think Kyle is a brilliant passing strategist, better than I've ever seen at OC for the Redskins. Late in the game, I think he admires himself too much.

It's sometimes hard for a brilliant, big-ego person to do the obvious, boring, humble thing. This is what causes Kyle to pass when he should run late. It's also why Haslett blitzed 8 on 3rd and 21, and why Romo sits to pee tried to go for a rushing TD late against the Jets.

They want to be the hero. They'll call it "the killer instinct," etc, but it's just ego getting in the way of smart game management.

[TSO]

Who's saying that? I'm not.

I have a very specific complaint about how much passing Kyle is doing late in the game when the Redskins have the lead.

I think Kyle is a brilliant passing strategist, better than I've ever seen at OC for the Redskins. Late in the game, I think he admires himself too much.

It's sometimes hard for a brilliant, big-ego person to do the obvious, boring, humble thing. This is what causes Kyle to pass when he should run late. It's also why Haslett blitzed 8 on 3rd and 21, and why Romo sits to pee tried to go for a rushing TD late against the Jets.

They want to be the hero. They'll call it "the killer instinct," etc, but it's just ego getting in the way of smart game management.

You've got to have an ego to be great. You've got to believe in yourself, that you can finish a team. I don't mind it, and I don't think it's as stupid a call as you're making it. It's actually humble in a sense that you don't want the other team to have more chances since you know that giving it to them can lead to worse things. I don't think Haslett and Kyle are stroking their egos when making those calls. I think they honestly felt that would hurt them the most. I don't like Haslett's call more than I don't like Kyle's there (actually, I LOVE Kyle's call there). I think Haslett took too much of a risk with Romo sits to pee, knowing full well that's where Romo sits to pee makes his plays, by moving around and playing street ball. Any other immobile QB would've gotten screwed on that play, but Haslett decided Romo sits to pee wasn't moving like he normally does I guess... which was true.

[darrelgreenie]

You're right. I was trying to give Kyle some greater credibility for how he handled the end of the Cowboys game, but I felt the same way at the time.

I guess I'm saying: however bad it was against the Cowboys, it was worse in context against the Rams.

Oh, no I agree.

Just sayin that Kyle has shown these tendencies since he's been here.

And it likely he'll always think pass first.

I can't help but feel like the greatest rev limiter for the running game isn't the RBs or the OL but Kyle.

Then we had the 3rd and 21 blitz (8 men), and I was reminded that both coordinators were trying to show off at times. Each was going for their big knockout blow. Unnecessary. Rushing six would have been fine. That's pressure without recklessness.

It hard for me to argue individual play calls because so much goes into each.

Its Kyle tendencies that bothers me more than that singular playcall.

Haslett's play call on 3rd and 21 isn't a call I would prefer, but it don't think it was bad call either.

Not to re-hash but 6 rusher vs max protect=time.

Romo sits to pee had been killing them when he wasn't pressured and the ball was actually snapped to him.

How was Tony Romo sits to pee when given time? 77.3% of his passes were complete. How was Tony Romo sits to pee when pressured? 35.7% of his passes were completed, with an interception to boot.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/09/27/re-focused-redskins-cowboys-week-3/

I'm a believer in the thought the answer to a passing game isn't coverage but pressure.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

You've got to have an ego to be great. You've got to believe in yourself, that you can finish a team. I don't mind it, and I don't think it's as stupid a call as you're making it. It's actually humble in a sense that you don't want the other team to have more chances since you know that giving it to them can lead to worse things. I don't think Haslett and Kyle are stroking their egos when making those calls. I think they honestly felt that would hurt them the most. I don't like Haslett's call more than I don't like Kyle's there (actually, I LOVE Kyle's call there). I think Haslett took too much of a risk with Romo sits to pee, knowing full well that's where Romo sits to pee makes his plays, by moving around and playing street ball. Any other immobile QB would've gotten screwed on that play, but Haslett decided Romo sits to pee wasn't moving like he normally does I guess... which was true.

Again, you are arguing generalities (with which I somewhat agree) and I am arguing specifics.

Prior to that "brilliant" play-action pass to Moss, the Redskins offense had been reduced to a very effective Torain rushing the ball, and Grossman being specifically unable to connect with Moss effectively, aside from one very nice TD throw and catch. The Rams were losing, but the one thing they had proven all day was that the Redskins weren't going to beat them with Davis or Moss, who had been Grossman's favorite targets prior to the Cowboys game. They probably copied some tactics from the Cowboys for coverage (I'm guessing), because the results were so similar.

So, the Redskins were doing one thing only that the Rams couldn't stop: rushing Torain. This happened also to be the smart thing to do to kill the clock.

In this situation, you think the "killer instinct" is to throw it to Moss (a low-percentage play to an unreliable target that day). I think the "killer instinct" is to hand the ball to Torain again and again and dare the Rams to stop it.

Have you forgotten the glory days? That is specifically how Gibbs humiliated the Cowboys in the NFC Championship. 50-Gut to Riggins over and over to close the game. The Hogs actually told the Cowboys DL what was coming.

That is total domination, and that is the killer instinct at work.

Passing to Moss is getting cute, ignoring what is working, and putting the focus on how smart the OC is. Maybe he's not so smart. Maybe Torain had actually earned the right for the ball and the honor of running it down the Rams' throats.

Imagine if Torain had run six straight times until breaking one deep for a TD. Brutal stuff. They would have played those highlights all night on ESPN and NFL Network.

That is domination. That is football.

Kyle was playing Madden ... and got burned.

[sportjunkie07]

Who's saying that? I'm not.

I have a very specific complaint about how much passing Kyle is doing late in the game when the Redskins have the lead.

I think Kyle is a brilliant passing strategist, better than I've ever seen at OC for the Redskins. Late in the game, I think he admires himself too much.

It's sometimes hard for a brilliant, big-ego person to do the obvious, boring, humble thing. This is what causes Kyle to pass when he should run late. It's also why Haslett blitzed 8 on 3rd and 21, and why Romo sits to pee tried to go for a rushing TD late against the Jets.

They want to be the hero. They'll call it "the killer instinct," etc, but it's just ego getting in the way of smart game management.

from what i recall, we have had a healthy mix of runs and passes so far this season. also, didnt we run the ball quite a bit in the second half with torain and helu? also, if you are continually gashing with the rb like we were with torain, whats wrong with a play action to put the nail in the coffin?

i do remember one instance late in the second half yesterday that i disagreed with.. it was 3rd and 1. we had plenty of time to call a play, and with our running game working like it was, i was expecting a run. instead we called a timeout and stopped the clock, only to come back with a pass on 3rd and one. i didnt like that play call.

[wildbill1952]

I see this form two different viewpoints. To start the game, the Skins are known as a running team. The safeties are both cheating up to the LOS at the start of the game by more than two steps. I don't see anything wrong starting pass, pass to move those safeties back, helping the running game all game long by keeping the safeties honest. The week before, against Dallas, to start the game, the safeties were cheating up, and everyone expected run. The Skins ran and got stuffed. I think the change on the first plays of yesterday's game were a reaction to that. i.e. Yes the Skins are going to run the ball down your throat, but if you stack the box, they can throw, I don't have a problem with it. The OC should be calling what the opponents don't expect. or at least keeping them honest

End of game: different story. The Skins are trying to run out the clock One first down will wipe out the remaining timeout the Rams have. Still not enough to wipe out all time remaining, but a fresh set of downs, even on first down will get you to the 2 minute warning. I don't have a problem doing the unexpected, the pass play over the middle to Moss. Better than a run that is expected. The execution? Sorry, Grossman hit the linebacker he didn't see in the numbers. That's not an OC problem. That's a QB problem. Is it riskier than what I was comfortable with? A higher percentage pass may have been called for, like a slant for 5 yards or even a screen. But the interception is 100% on the QB.

One thing I did like yesterday is more running in the redzone, at least from the 20 to the 5. But inside the 5, we're still doing too much passing, indicating our OLine, although improved, still lacks the coaches confidence on the goal line. Either the OLine has to improve or teams will know, inside the 5, the Skins pass. That'll lead to a couple of pick sixes if that isn't mixed up a little more.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

You've got to have an ego to be great. You've got to believe in yourself, that you can finish a team.

This is another misconception about that play-action pass to Moss. Finish a team? With that puny pass?

This was not going to be a knockout blow even if successful. It was 1st and 10, 5:45 to play, Redskins on their 20. Yes, the LB dropped back and intercepted the ball, but Moss was just sitting in a seam in the zone, 18 yards deep. He had two defenders closing on him while the ball was in the air. This is a play that goes for only 20 yards if successful, with 45% chance of success, with exactly the same effect on the clock as a run.

Knockout blow? I don't think so. "Success" = 1st and 10, Redskins 40-yard line, 5:40 on clock, clock running.

Failure? 2nd and 10, Redskins 20-yard line, 5:40 on clock, clock stopped. This is now a much more difficult situation. Rushing is unlikely to pick up the first down ... and so is passing. 2nd and 10 is a very tough situation, compared to 1st and 10.

Catastrophic failure? Interception. (Check) Sack. Fumble. That's what happened.

With a run, the most likely outcome was a 5.5 yard gain, based on prior runs on first down by Torain.

So, Kyle bet a 55% chance of a 20-yard gain was worth the 45% risk of failure or catastrophic failure, instead of taking 100% chance of keeping the clock running and 50+% chance of 5.5 yard gain.

[grego]

Who's saying that? I'm not.

I have a very specific complaint about how much passing Kyle is doing late in the game when the Redskins have the lead.

I think Kyle is a brilliant passing strategist, better than I've ever seen at OC for the Redskins. Late in the game, I think he admires himself too much.

It's sometimes hard for a brilliant, big-ego person to do the obvious, boring, humble thing. This is what causes Kyle to pass when he should run late. It's also why Haslett blitzed 8 on 3rd and 21, and why Romo sits to pee tried to go for a rushing TD late against the Jets.

They want to be the hero. They'll call it "the killer instinct," etc, but it's just ego getting in the way of smart game management.

i agree with this. overall, his playcalling is probably ok, maybe even good. after what he did vs dallas, i'm going to scrutinize every call he makes cuz the skins should have won that game.(i'm a tad bitter about that game). its like he tries too hard to outsmart the opponent. i would love it, and he'd be a genius, if it actually worked. i dont know if its rex or the WR's or the playcalling or all 3, but its clearly not working.

maybe its a madden generation thing. younger people weaned on madden seem to think like kyle and love it.

[seriously]

I also want to add something, both games are somewhat fresh (Rams & Dallas). We need to go with a more "hurry up" style to keep the defenders from being able to sub out so easily and bring fresh personnel on the field. Not saying to actually snap the ball (unless we can catch them not set or with 12+ on the field) but just get to the line and wait for the call if so needed.

Another mention, Rex called a very important audible- which really broke Torain into the game and set the tempo so to speak... His run prior to the TD Rex changed the play and it worked, beautifully.

I completely agree to the statement that hindsight is 20/20 (although MANY of us were already fearing the play action which was picked off) and it isn't fair to judge Kyle after the fact. But if Kyle is to be respected, he will make some sort of adjustments that indicate he is playing to the strengths of the CURRENT personnel (as any good coach should).

---------- Post added October-4th-2011 at 03:04 AM ----------

So, Kyle bet a 55% chance of a 20-yard gain was worth the 45% risk of failure or catastrophic failure, instead of taking 100% chance of keeping the clock running and 50+% chance of 5.5 yard gain.

Great post man.

[TSO]

Again, you are arguing generalities (with which I somewhat agree) and I am arguing specifics.

But here, specifically, you are ignoring what is generally true and, therefore, are wrong about it. You can't claim to "somewhat agree" with the generalities I'm arguing and then fault those playcalls as much as you are. They could've been executed better, that's for sure, but they should call games like that.

Prior to that "brilliant" play-action pass to Moss, the Redskins offense had been reduced to a very effective Torain rushing the ball, and Grossman being specifically unable to connect with Moss effectively, aside from one very nice TD throw and catch. The Rams were losing, but the one thing they had proven all day was that the Redskins weren't going to beat them with Davis or Moss, who had been Grossman's favorite targets prior to the Cowboys game. They probably copied some tactics from the Cowboys for coverage (I'm guessing), because the results were so similar.

So, the Redskins were doing one thing only that the Rams couldn't stop: rushing Torain. This happened also to be the smart thing to do to kill the clock.

In this situation, you think the "killer instinct" is to throw it to Moss (a low-percentage play to an unreliable target that day). I think the "killer instinct" is to hand the ball to Torain again and again and dare the Rams to stop it.

[/Quote]

lol, Torain was awesome but you're way exaggerating what he did. The Rams did stop him a bunch of times. The killer instinct here is to play action pass and fool them. Kyle was in their head here and the way the LBers got sucked in proved it was the right call. I have no doubt that if we did hand it off to Torain they would've stopped it considering how intent they were on doing so.

Have you forgotten the glory days? That is specifically how Gibbs humiliated the Cowboys in the NFC Championship. 50-Gut to Riggins over and over to close the game. The Hogs actually told the Cowboys DL what was coming.

That is total domination, and that is the killer instinct at work.

Passing to Moss is getting cute, ignoring what is working, and putting the focus on how smart the OC is. Maybe he's not so smart. Maybe Torain had actually earned the right for the ball and the honor of running it down the Rams' throats.

Imagine if Torain had run six straight times until breaking one deep for a TD. Brutal stuff. They would have played those highlights all night on ESPN and NFL Network.

That is domination. That is football.

Kyle was playing Madden ... and got burned.

Are you seriously trying to compare what we've got right now to an 80s era football with what is arguably the greatest Oline to have ever played in football? You do know that, back then, Dlinemen were less athletic, right? You do know that now, in today's NFL, any team in the league that focuses solely on one aspect of an offense will stop it pretty easily, right? It's extremely rare to just keep running the ball and be successful at it. How many coaches need to say "we can't get one-dimensional" or "we need to keep the defense honest" these days before you factor that into your argument here?

Since you decided to give me a brief history lesson, let me give you one that's more recent. Remember that 07 Pats game in which they destroyed us by the tune of 52-7? All week we were talking about Brady and that record-breaking passing game they had going, including our coaches, and few were talking about their running game. What did the Pats come out and do to us? They ran the ball. Over and over and over. We were so focused on not letting them pass on us they destroyed us by running the ball. As soon as we started focusing on the run again, they started passing it. They owned us that game and that's how you call a game. Attack the D's weakness, and don't be one-dimensional no matter how good you think you are at that one thing. The Pats had an historically amazing passing game that year, yet they attacked our D by running the ball.

No, Kyle did the right thing. Instead of allowing the Rams to focus on stopping the run here, which was clearly their intent as the play action absolutely worked in drawing them in, you fake them on it and hit whomever through the air. The killer instinct would not have been to run the ball over and over again there, as the Rams were stacking the line and were bent on not letting us run out the clock doing so. You under-estimate the ability of the Rams defense to stop the run. They kept the Giants, who have one of the best running games in the league, to a pedestrian stat line. It was the right call, and went along with our gameplan as we came out faking the run and it was working well.

This is another misconception about that play-action pass to Moss. Finish a team? With that puny pass?

This was not going to be a knockout blow even if successful. It was 1st and 10, 5:45 to play, Redskins on their 20. Yes, the LB dropped back and intercepted the ball, but Moss was just sitting in a seam in the zone, 18 yards deep. He had two defenders closing on him while the ball was in the air. This is a play that goes for only 20 yards if successful, with 45% chance of success, with exactly the same effect on the clock as a run.

Knockout blow? I don't think so. "Success" = 1st and 10, Redskins 40-yard line, 5:40 on clock, clock running.

Failure? 2nd and 10, Redskins 20-yard line, 5:40 on clock, clock stopped. This is now a much more difficult situation. Rushing is unlikely to pick up the first down ... and so is passing. 2nd and 10 is a very tough situation, compared to 1st and 10.

Catastrophic failure? Interception. (Check) Sack. Fumble. That's what happened.

With a run, the most likely outcome was a 5.5 yard gain, based on prior runs on first down by Torain.

So, Kyle bet a 55% chance of a 20-yard gain was worth the 45% risk of failure or catastrophic failure, instead of taking 100% chance of keeping the clock running and 50+% chance of 5.5 yard gain.

Who said that one play would "finish the team"? We're talking about that play, specifically, so the arguments were being made about that play, yet you assume that anyone is saying that one play would've finished them? Now who is generalizing, lol?

And what a bs stat line to pull without factoring what the Rams Defense was doing on that drive. You just pull out what Torain had done up to that point as if the Rams D would play it exactly the same way considering the situation in the game. You think they had no thoughts in their mind about us running the ball to take time off the clock there? Seriously? :doh:

The killer instinct is to not hand the ball off 3 times against a defense trying to stop the run. The killer instinct is to punish them for trying to focus in on one thing and take it away by attacking what they're not focusing in on... which is otherwise known as the "weakness in their D". You're failing to see that all Kyle did there was attack the weakness of the D. That's it. You can't argue otherwise because you're failing to see the defense the Rams were in and how they got sucked in by the play fake. Those are the realities. Luaranaitis made a great play, period, but the play call was excellent and was definitely the killer instinct.

Now, if Ryan Torain was basically owning them no matter what they did and was running for 5 yards a pop every single down, then you can say it was wrong. But that's not what happened and you're exaggerating about how great Torain played (and he definitely played great, but he wasn't "unstoppable" by its literal definition, which you're trying to apply to his day).

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 04:49 PM ----------

Great post man.

You got one with your amazing stat-pulling ability, ASF.

Poor guy. :pfft:

[Guest Spearfeather]

Hi.....I think you know me..... I'm Kyle Shanahan.

Yeah, ... that's right. OC for the 'Skins. I'm the one that calls those plays that make your head turn around like Linda Blair in the Exorcist. You know. " Wily Kylie ".

Third and one, you wanna leave Torain in and jam that **** up the middle? **** that. I'm bringing in Hightower. That's right, the pass. Gotta work it. I'm flippin' over my hole cards, and shovin' all in. Why?

Because I'm Wily Kylie and that' how I roll.

Second and goal from the seven, Oh! Now you wanna pass? You're a sissy. **** that. We're gonna set up the third and goal from the three, and then stick that **** in there when it really hurt's the most, baby.

You see the old man over there. Yeah, he likes to keep it on the ground. I say screw that ****. The only time I want to keep the ball on the ground is after the game, when I've got my foot propped up on it and my arms folded like the Pirate from the Captain Morgan's commercial. " Got a little Wily Kylie in ya ? " Well if you dont, ...you should.

Third and 12 from their 22. 17 point lead. 10 minutes to go. You wanna run it, kick the field goal and make it a three touchdown game? Screw that ****. That ****s for girls. We're gonna air this ***** out. I'd rather go down in a blaze of glory trying to dominate a team, and lose, than grind out a 17 - 0 win.

I'm Wily Kylie and don't you forget it.

[keecee]

I may be in the minority with this viewpoint, but more than half of Rex's turnovers can easily be blamed on his line or receivers...

If the running game is working, you have the lead- a 2 score one at that... Why do you call that play-action?

Dallas, in the redzone.... WTF is up with that WR screen to Moss?

There are a lot more incidents but I'm trying to keep it short- but I am honestly more in favor of Kyle taking a seat as I am Rex.

He should know he doesn't have all day back there.they are doing a decent job for the most part this year.We'd be okay,if we had a quick thinking qb,that could also scramble himself out of a jam.

---------- Post added October-5th-2011 at 10:19 PM ----------

They are getting that old bad habit of trying to sit on a small lead. With all faults,the offense is better than it's been in the recent past.

[grego]

Hi.....I think you know me..... I'm Kyle Shanahan.

Yeah, ... that's right. OC for the 'Skins. I'm the one that calls those plays that make your head turn around like Linda Blair in the Exorcist You know. " Wily Kylie ".

Third and one, you wanna leave Torain in and jam that **** up the middle? **** that. I'm bringing in Hightower. That's right, the pass. Gotta work it. I'm flippin' over my hole cards, and shovin' all in. Why?

Because I'm Wily Kylie and that' how I roll.

Second and goal from the seven, Oh! Now you wanna pass? You're a sissy. **** that. We're gonna set up the third and goal from the three, and then stick that **** in there when it really hurt's the most, baby.

You see the old man over there. Yeah, he likes to keep it on the ground. I say screw that ****. The only time I want to keep the ball on the ground is after the game, when I've got my foot propped up on it and my arms folded like the Pirate from the Captain Morgan's commercial. " Got a little Wily Kylie in ya ? " Well if you dont, ...you should.

Third and 12 from their 22. 17 point lead. 10 minutes to go. You wanna run it, kick the field goal and make it a three touchdown game? Screw that ****. That ****s for girls. We're gonna air this ***** out. I'd rather go down in a blaze of glory trying to dominate a team, and lose, than grind out a 17 - 0 win.

I'm Wily Kylie and don't you forget it.

now, that was freakin funny.

well done.