2012 Comprehensive NFL Draft Database

[darrelgreenie]

Blackmon.

For my money best WR in the draft by a good margin and he's gonna be the unquestioned featured WR.

[Going Commando]

Blackmon.

For my money best WR in the draft by a good margin and he's gonna be the unquestioned featured WR.

Agreed. I'm fascinated by what's happening in Jacksonville. I want to see how Gabbert develops. I think he's got the right coach and the ownership and FO is behind him right now. I'd like to see he and Blackmon grow up together.

But as a rule with very, very few exceptions, rookie WRs don't consistently produce in fantasy.

[darrelgreenie]

Agreed. I'm fascinated by what's happening in Jacksonville. I want to see how Gabbert develops. I think he's got the right coach and the ownership and FO is behind him right now. I'd like to see he and Blackmon grow up together.

But as a rule with very, very few exceptions, rookie WRs don't consistently produce in fantasy.

You know, i wasn't even paying attention to the fantasy angle.

I think perception of Gabbert is gonna change 180 degrees this year.

I noticed something cool/funny looking at the UDFA WRs:

Griff Whalen signed by the Colts,

Jeff Fuller signed by Dolphins (who should be beating down Jacoby Jones door btw)

Devin Auguliar signed by the Titans

If the Dolphins can sign a WR I think Tannehill is gonna much better then people think, if the Fins can find him a WR.

[Laron Burgundy]

You know, i wasn't even paying attention to the fantasy angle.

I think perception of Gabbert is gonna change 180 degrees this year.

I noticed something cool/funny looking at the UDFA WRs:

Griff Whalen signed by the Colts,

Jeff Fuller signed by Dolphins (who should be beating down Jacoby Jones door btw)

Devin Auguliar signed by the Titans

If the Dolphins can sign a WR I think Tannehill is gonna much better then people think, if the Fins can find him a WR.

I think what gets lost in the whole Gabbert story is that McCown, a career backup with experience, actually played worse than Gabbert last year. That passing game was atrocious. Sure, they have a running game, but they have no one to catch balls and their protection is poor. As long as MJD is alive, though, Jacksonville is going to be a run-first team, so Gabbert doesn't have to transform into Tom Brady for them to win games. His receivers dropped a lot of passes, and he's clearly uncomfortable when pressured. I don't think he'll ever be great when pressured, but at least they can correct the dropped passes from receivers and his tendency to throw a little high.

And after watching some of Gabbert's play in Jacksonville this year, I can't wait to see how Griffin looks in our offense. I expect a fairly typical rookie year, some spectacular runs and hopefully fewer bonehead interceptions than Rex, and I think that will get us quite a few more wins. I think having a talented, yet inexperienced, signal caller will likely motivate the rest of the team too, so I could see a bit of a ripple effect where players like Hall might step their game up. You could see Gabbert's skittishness to pressure in college, and thankfully Griffin never showed that, so I'm confident there. I'm just afraid, of course, that could lead to a bad injury.

[Chump Bailey]

Blackmon.

For my money best WR in the draft by a good margin and he's gonna be the unquestioned featured WR.

Gabbert plays scared and shrinks in the pocket. I like his arm and he's a good athlete, but you have to be able to take a hit in the pocket from time to time. He wants no part of it. He already looks like damaged goods to me, but maybe the new HC will make a difference.

[Going Commando]

You know, i wasn't even paying attention to the fantasy angle.

I think perception of Gabbert is gonna change 180 degrees this year.

It seems like the perception of young QBs tends to fluctuate wildly from year to year, until we get a baseline of about four or five seasons to figure them out.

There was a time when Sm Bradford and Matt Ryan were thought of as the next great Brady/Manning-esque QBs. When Vince Young was a Probowler and set to change the way we think about the position. When Matt Stafford was a glass man and potential bust and when Aaron Rodgers couldn't get it done in the fourth quarter. People still think Joe Flacco is a second rate game managing QB.

Actually, come to think of it, there are probably a host of erroneous assumptions about every QB from early in their careers: Brady being a game manager, Big Ben being a game manager, Manning being a choker, Brees being a mediocre player holding the seat warm for Phil Rivers. Look how many turnarounds we've done with the book on Jay Cutler--next Elway, prima dona loser and turnover machine, battered winner, softy, so on and so forth.

If Newton struggles a bit this season and puts up lower numbers, I don't doubt for a second that people will forget about his talent and his rookie year and write him off. Ditto for Dalton (although I would tend to believe that he's been a bit overrated).

Anyway, people have really cooled off on Bradford and Ryan, undeservedly IMO. That shifting public perception shows how flighty NFL fans and the media can be. It rubber bands from one extreme to the other. I bring up these two QBs because I think they're the most similar type to Gabbert--cerebral, accurate, sneaky athletic passers with above average physical tools, but not the kind of playmakers at the position that will create a group of big plays and highlights that you can point to and distill the book on them down to a few moments that can prove they can play. If they aren't constantly playing efficiently and winning, people will assume they suck. These guys don't play in the type of offense where they'll produce monster volume stats and they won't regularly do things to take your breath away and leave those kinds of indelible positive impressions.

Also, I want to reiterate that I don't think most fans/media have realistic expectations for a time frame of QB development for becoming excellent passers. With very, very few exceptions, it takes every QB at least four or five years in the league to make the leap to becoming a great passer/operator of the passing offense. And usually, those years have to be spent in the same offensive system, or at least with the same team. The only recent exceptions to that rule I can summon are Peyton Manning, Matt Stafford, and maaaaybe Jay Cutler.

Cutler is tricky, he definitely regressed after changing teams and has never truly become an outstandingly efficient passer.

It's worth pointing out that both Stafford and Manning played surrounded by elite offensive talent, particularly in the passing game, early in their careers, and both play in domes.

But look at the list of all the other good QBs and it takes them at least four or five years to make the leap as passers:

- Brady (probably around the 2004 season, year four, he's 27 years old)

- Brees (definitely year four, 2004 season, 25 years old)

- Roethlisberger (definitely year four, 2007 season, 25 years old)

- Romo sits to pee (definitely year four, 2007 season, 27 years old)

- Rodgers (probably year four, but definitely by year five, 2008/2009 season, 25/26 years old)

- Rivers (year five, 2008 season, 27 years old)

- Schaub (maybe year five, but definitely year six, 2008/2009 season, 27/28 years old)

- Eli Manning (pushing it by year five, but definitely by year six, 2008/2009 season, 27/28 years old)

And I'm not sure if these guys have made "the leap" yet as passers, but if they have, I'd probably say Matt Ryan made it last year, his fourth season (26 years old), Vick made it in his 8th season (30 years old... he was really young when he came into the league), and Alex Smith would have made it last year, his sixth season (27 years old).

Not saying those guys weren't good quarterbacks beforehand, but they weren't the kind of passers their teams built their offense around until at least that fourth or fifth season. It goes in line with your theory that a franchise must first prop up their QB until he reaches the point that he can prop them up. Passing is 90% of what us lay people, fans and media, care about when we evaluate NFL QB play.

So my point is that to try and write the book on Gabbert after his 1st, 22 year old season is ludicrous. And yet the public perception on him seems definitive. It's going to take years yet before we figure out how good a passer he actually is. Assuming he gets years. In the mean time, I'd like to see the game start slowing down for him, have him develop a connection with Blackmon, and have the Jags start winning games.

If the Dolphins can sign a WR I think Tannehill is gonna much better then people think, if the Fins can find him a WR.

Interesting. I really hope they can. The Dolphins had a really nice draft. I too think Tannehill will be much better than people think.

I still can't get over the fact that we ostensibly had Cousins rated ahead of Tannehill on our board--meaning we actually thought Cousins was a better prospect. The only important things I can think of that sets Cousins above Tannehill is some sort of intangible consideration, game experience, & team success. Tannehill didn't produce a ton of late game heroics and dramatic come backs like Cousins. Other than that, it's like Tannehill is better in every way.

---------- Post added May-3rd-2012 at 09:19 AM ----------

Mike said Kirk will compete will compete for the backup position with Rex in year one. I wonder if he can win it? I don't count Rex's experience too heavily in his favor. Because in spite of that experience, he still makes square one mechanical mistakes with absurd frequency. After a certain point, a 31 year old veteran QB should not be this inaccurate, should not be throwing off balance every other pass, and should not be turning it over at such a high rate. If Kirk can come in and be more accurate and more mechanically sound in year one, I want him to get the backup job, scheme familiarity or no. Kirk is extremely smart and hard working. I could see him reducing the knowledge gap between him and Rex very quickly.

I'm really rooting for our top four draft picks to make it and become important contributors this year. I don't think I've enjoyed rooting for a draft class as much as this one in a while.

I would love to see LeRibeus when a starting role and become a team fixture this season. In an ideal world, Kory L comes back as strong as ever from his injury and reclaims the LG or C position, and LeRibeus wins another starting interior OL job and never looks back. Kory and Trent supposedly have very thick chemistry at LG and LT respectively. If that's true, I probably wouldn't want to mess with that too much. But if Kory is a better center than Monty, then that's where he should play. And as such, that would allow LeRiebus to slide into his natural position at LG.

How do you all want to see the OL shake out next season?

I'd like to see LT - Trent, LG - LeRiebus, C - Kory, RG - probably Chester or Hurt, or maybe even Jammal Brown, RT - Willie Smith

With Monty, Gettis, and Compton as our key developmental guys and reserves.

Long term, I'd probably like to see Gettis and Compton move into starting roles at RG and RT.

[Chump Bailey]

Cutler is tricky, he definitely regressed after changing teams and has never truly become an outstandingly efficient passer.

I'm targeting Cutler for my FF team as I think he could be a sleeper QB with Brandon Marshall, Earl Bennett (whose underrated IMO) Knox and Alshon Jeffrey.

[The Tris]

You know, i wasn't even paying attention to the fantasy angle.

I think perception of Gabbert is gonna change 180 degrees this year.

I'm not a fan of Gabbert (as well as Mike Mularky as we have discussed), but the rush to write his eulogy is pretty amusing.

Of course, sometimes situations can quickly write your story, and fair or unfair, that's it.

I found this article interesting, specifically the section on Tim Couch:

Tim Couch: Underrated Quarterback

Tim Couch was the consensus top pick out of Kentucky heading into the draft, though his selection was more of a curse, as the Cleveland Browns were just returning to the league in 1999, and he would be paired with a roster devoid of almost any NFL-capable talent.

If you want an example of how inept Cleveland (2-14) was as an expansion team, look no further than the season opener at home versus Pittsburgh. The Steelers won 43-0, while compiling 34 first downs (2 for Cleveland), 464 yards (40 for Cleveland), and possessing the ball for 47:49.

Couch actually finished with respectable numbers as a rookie, throwing 15 TD, 13 INT, and a 73.2 passer rating. In fact, Couch finished with a mid-70’s passer rating in all five of his seasons in Cleveland – never turning into a star, but also never completely bombing out like past busts. Still, he was out of the league after his five seasons with the Browns.

Though his career legacy may read "bust", Couch was a better quarterback than the likes of David Carr, Joey Harrington, JaMarcus Russell, and until last season, Alex Smith in San Francisco. The Browns never could find him a running game, an offensive line, a receiving corps, or a good coach for that matter.

Still, the only postseason Cleveland has participated in during their 13 seasons since their return was in 2002, and Couch was the primary quarterback, posting an 8-6 record as a starter. Yet no one seems to remember this fact, because Cleveland started and finished their season in memorable fashion with Kelly Holcomb behind center.

In a Week 1 shootout against the Chiefs, the Browns lost on the final play after Dwayne Rudd was penalized for prematurely removing his helmet. The Chiefs won 40-39 after an untimed field goal ended the game. Holcomb passed for 326 yards and 3 TD. Then in the Wild Card start at Pittsburgh, it was Holcomb again subbing for an injured Couch, and he led an aerial assault to the tune of 429 yards passing. The Browns blew a 17-point lead and lost 36-33, but it was the most memorable game they have played in since 1999.

While Holcomb brought excitement, Couch was the quarterback for most of that lone playoff season. Couch also delivered some excitement of his own during his brief career, as he managed 11 game-winning drives – exactly half of his win total (22 games). Two of those miraculous wins were by a Hail Mary, as part of a one-minute drill each time.

If the game was still close late, Couch actually gave the Browns a decent shot at pulling it out. That has not been the case since he left, and the reality is the Browns miss Couch more than anyone is probably aware of.

Browns 1999-11 Starts Record Win % Attempts Comp. Pct. Yards YPA TD INT PR

With Couch 59 22-37 0.373 1714 1025 59.8% 11131 6.49 64 67 75.1

Without Couch 149 46-103 0.309 4760 2698 56.7% 29336 6.16 157 180 70.2

Since returning to the league in 1999, the Cleveland Browns won more often and got better quarterback play with Tim Couch than they have without him.

The “without Couch” would include the likes of Doug Pederson, Kelly Holcomb, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Garcia, Charlie Frye, Derek Anderson, Seneca Wallace, Brady Quinn and Colt McCoy.

Was Tim Couch an epic bust? No. The Cleveland Browns 2.0 have been an epic bust, and Couch was the best move they made at quarterback. They just failed to build the team around him like the team that picked No. 2 in that 1999 draft did for their quarterback.

The epitome of the raw material not being the reason for a bust.

And speaking of the Browns and ability or inability to properly surround a QB with talent, what are we to make of Colt McCoy? You are a outspoken advocate of his, yet when he was dangled for a trade, there were seemingly no takers league-wide. What does that say about McCoy, Holmgren, and the league's perception in general? Teams eagerly spend 4th and 5th round picks on rookie backups, yet no one wanted to swoop in and snag McCoy?

People still think Joe Flacco is a second rate game managing QB.

...based on several season of being just that. In fact, he clearly regressed this season before taking his game to a new level against the Pats. That was the first game I ever watched of Joe Flacco's and he made numerous "wow" throws.

(of course, Rex Grossman looked pretty amazing against the Pats as well, so what do we call Flacco)

I actually don't care to quibble about Flacco, but feel like he is a good baseline for what to expect out of Ryan Tannehill. Big arm, deceptive pocket ability, strong ground game, solid defense.

It's going to take a few years to figure out Tannehill. 4 to 5 I think will hold for him. Think 50 starts is a good number.

people have really cooled off on Bradford and Ryan, undeservedly IMO.

Ryan is interesting because he's essentially the same QB he was as a rookie, with the same flaws and limitations. Perception has changed due to his inability to evolve as a passer. I feel like this is the case with a lot of "high floor" guys. I could see Andrew Luck starting out like Ryan. Of course, the probelem is Ryan has had elite supporting players, yet has not been able to improve his game beyond a certain level.

This year is a critical year for Matt Ryan in my eyes. 5th year, has started 46 games. If he doesn't become a QB who is a game changer* this year, its probably never going to happen. It will be interesting to see. (and to take this full circle, also will be interesting to see if he is better or worse w/o Mularkey - which should enlighten us about how good he will be for Gabbert)

*Does anyone think that DC's spend restless nights game planning for Matt Ryan?

I would love to see LeRibeus when a starting role and become a team fixture this season. In an ideal world, Kory L comes back as strong as ever from his injury and reclaims the LG or C position, and LeRibeus wins another starting interior OL job and never looks back. Kory and Trent supposedly have very thick chemistry at LG and LT respectively. If that's true, I probably wouldn't want to mess with that too much. But if Kory is a better center than Monty, then that's where he should play. And as such, that would allow LeRiebus to slide into his natural position at LG.

How do you all want to see the OL shake out next season?

I'd like to see LT - Trent, LG - LeRiebus, C - Kory, RG - probably Chester or Hurt, or maybe even Jammal Brown, RT - Willie Smith

With Monty, Gettis, and Compton as our key developmental guys and reserves.

Long term, I'd probably like to see Gettis and Compton move into starting roles at RG and RT.

I definitely would like to see LeRiebus push for a starting job. However, I don't see Monty going anywhere. It'd be nice to see what a Kory-Monty-LeR interior would be capable of.

[Tedskins 73]

People say LeRiebus may be capable of sliding to center. Do you guys think he would be comfortable/just as effective if he were at guard? What do you think the chances are of that? It would be pretty cool to get the franchise QB and Center in the same draft. That way they can work together from day one and (hopefully) hold the fort down for many years to come.

[SuperBash]

Who is gonna reach for RG3 in their fantasy drafts? Be honest, I think I will. But I'll see how my draft plays out, I typically wait for a QB til the 4th or 5th. Every year I've won it, I've either taken a QB high or have a later round QB blow up, like Rodgers a few years ago.

[Chump Bailey]

Who is gonna reach for RG3 in their fantasy drafts? Be honest, I think I will. But I'll see how my draft plays out, I typically wait for a QB til the 4th or 5th. Every year I've won it, I've either taken a QB high or have a later round QB blow up, like Rodgers a few years ago.

I'm considering it. I'm having a difficult time choosing between RB & QB in the 1st. RB was my achilles heel last year and dont' want a repeat.

[Dukes and Skins]

People say LeRiebus may be capable of sliding to center. Do you guys think he would be comfortable/just as effective if he were at guard? What do you think the chances are of that? It would be pretty cool to get the franchise QB and Center in the same draft. That way they can work together from day one and (hopefully) hold the fort down for many years to come.

I dont think LeRibeus would be a C if anyone of the draft class was to move to center it would be Adam Gettis

[cphil006]

I dont think LeRibeus would be a C if anyone of the draft class was to move to center it would be Adam Gettis

He's got short arms, so maybe center would be his best chance at making the team?

[Conn]

Who is gonna reach for RG3 in their fantasy drafts? Be honest, I think I will. But I'll see how my draft plays out, I typically wait for a QB til the 4th or 5th. Every year I've won it, I've either taken a QB high or have a later round QB blow up, like Rodgers a few years ago.

I only play dynasty, so seeing RG3 drafted high in rookie-only drafts is the norm there, but I'm considering taking him early in a new start-up 2QB dynasty league. QB's are worth their weight in gold in those leagues, just like in the NFL, and the commish told me he's expecting 20 of the first 30 picks to be QB's....yeah.

[Dukes and Skins]

He's got short arms, so maybe center would be his best chance at making the team?

I assume you are talking Gettis? Arms isn't the end all be all with OL, his technique is up there the only problem with Gettis was he really had one year of high production and he's only at the 293 range which isn't great for some teams.

[Conn]

I assume you are talking Gettis? Arms isn't the end all be all with OL, his technique is up there the only problem with Gettis was he really had one year of high production and he's only at the 293 range which isn't great for some teams.

Yeah, I'd worry more about arm length in my OT's, not OG/OC's.

[Dukes and Skins]

Yeah, I'd worry more about arm length in my OT's, not OG/OC's.

Its important for an OT but its not a deal breaker as well. OG/OC's are more technicians where as usually the OT's are the high athletic guys. Thats not to say OG/OC's are athletic guys, but more so the trend is that

[darrelgreenie]

I noticed something cool/funny looking at the UDFA WRs:

Griff Whalen(Stanford) signed by the Colts,

Jeff Fuller(Texas A&M) signed by Dolphins (who should be beating down Jacoby Jones door btw)

Devin Auguliar(Washington) signed by the Titans

Redskins invited Keith Nichol(Michigan State) to mini-camp

[Pedro]

Redskins invited Keith Nichol(Michigan State) to mini-camp

4.75 40 time per nfldraftscout. Maybe Cousins said something about him?

[Chump Bailey]

4.75 40 time per nfldraftscout. Maybe Cousins said something about him?

Interesting path he took: he's a former QB himself and a reverse Tannehill situation.

I was hoping we'd take a look at WR Wes Kemp personally.

[Pedro]

Maybe Cousins has some kit at MSU he wants bringing to camp so Shanny did him a favor and picked up a kid still in the area to bring it down???

'Hi it's Mike Shanahan, you can come to camp if you bring Kirk's piano'

[darrelgreenie]

And yet the public perception on him seems definitive. It's going to take years yet before we figure out how good a passer he actually is. Assuming he gets years. In the mean time, I'd like to see the game start slowing down for him, have him develop a connection with Blackmon, and have the Jags start winning games.

I've read some coaches say it takes about 36 starts to know what've you've got at QB (assuming continuity and support). Somewhere around that time frame I think you can start transitioning from carrying grooming your young passer to asking your QB to carry the offense.

I still can't get over the fact that we ostensibly had Cousins rated ahead of Tannehill on our board--meaning we actually thought Cousins was a better prospect.

I heard the same thing, but it reeks of post draft coachspeak. Not that Cousins isn't a good prospect but to have him 3rd is hard for me to believe, especially knowing that Mike Shanahan will say anything.

Mike said Kirk will compete will compete for the backup position with Rex in year one. I wonder if he can win it? I don't count Rex's experience too heavily in his favor...Kirk is extremely smart and hard working. I could see him reducing the knowledge gap between him and Rex very quickly.

He did? If its a straight up competition I think Kirk has chance to win because well...how can I write this nicely??....Rex sucks.

But, Rex knows the offense and equally as important he's good friends with Kyle.

I would love to see LeRibeus when a starting role and become a team fixture this season. In an ideal world, Kory L comes back as strong as ever from his injury and reclaims the LG or C position, and LeRibeus wins another starting interior OL job and never looks back. Kory and Trent supposedly have very thick chemistry at LG and LT respectively. If that's true, I probably wouldn't want to mess with that too much. But if Kory is a better center than Monty, then that's where he should play. And as such, that would allow LeRiebus to slide into his natural position at LG.

How do you all want to see the OL shake out next season?

I think they targeted LeRibeus with the eyeing him as a starting caliber contributor:

Here's what Brandt said according to June Jones:"I was talking to Gil Brandt and he thinks Josh will be the guard that ends up playing in the league the fastest and longest of this draft, which says a lot,” stated Jones at the time.

LT-Williams

LG-Lichtenstieger

C-Chris Chester

RG-Josh LeRibeus

RT-Willie Smith

Swing OL Polumbus, Swing OG Hurt,

Reserve OL: Compton Practice squad: Gettis

I think there could be an uptick in Chester's performance if he moves from OG to Center.

My thinking (and I could be wrong) is that if you're physically able to handle playing OG then if you're smart enough you can play center because its less physically demanding.

But, as Monty proved last year just because you can play Center doesn't mean you'll be any good at OG.

I would replace Chester with Kory at center only if Chester struggles.

If I was the OL coach I would 'suggest' that Chester move to Center and if he don't like it....

[Going Commando]

Did you all see that Terrell Suggs partially tore his Achilles? That smells like a career ender. Especially for a player his age. Sucks.

[martytheman]

I've read some coaches say it takes about 36 starts to know what've you've got at QB (assuming continuity and support). Somewhere around that time frame I think you can start transitioning from carrying grooming your young passer to asking your QB to carry the offense.

I heard the same thing, but it reeks of post draft coachspeak. Not that Cousins isn't a good prospect but to have him 3rd is hard for me to believe, especially knowing that Mike Shanahan will say anything.

He did? If its a straight up competition I think Kirk has chance to win because well...how can I write this nicely??....Rex sucks.

But, Rex knows the offense and equally as important he's good friends with Kyle.

I think they targeted LeRibeus with the eyeing him as a starting caliber contributor:

LT-Williams

LG-Lichtenstieger

C-Chris Chester

RG-Josh LeRibeus

RT-Willie Smith

Swing OL Polumbus, Swing OG Hurt,

Reserve OL: Compton Practice squad: Gettis

I think there could be an uptick in Chester's performance if he moves from OG to Center.

My thinking (and I could be wrong) is that if you're physically able to handle playing OG then if you're smart enough you can play center because its less physically demanding.

But, as Monty proved last year just because you can play Center doesn't mean you'll be any good at OG.

I would replace Chester with Kory at center only if Chester struggles.

If I was the OL coach I would 'suggest' that Chester move to Center and if he don't like it....

Where does monty fit in your plans? didn't he just sign a multi year/million dollar extension?

I think for good or worse, he's the starting C.

[Laron Burgundy]

Who is gonna reach for RG3 in their fantasy drafts? Be honest, I think I will. But I'll see how my draft plays out, I typically wait for a QB til the 4th or 5th. Every year I've won it, I've either taken a QB high or have a later round QB blow up, like Rodgers a few years ago.

I will for sure. I was going to reach on Newton last year but decided not to and went for Bradford because I expected a year 2 leap. Whoops. How I see qb's shaking down it'll be:

Rodgers

Brady

Newton

Brees

Vick

Stafford

Eli

Romo sits to pee

Rivers

Manning

Cutler

Schaub

I feel anything from Stafford to Schaub is offering about the same value, so I would rather draft Schaub or Cutler than Stafford or Eli and then grab RG3 a pick or two later.