WP Opinion: In lieu of prison, bring back the lash

[#98QBKiller]

Guys, RTFA before commenting please.

I like that acronym.

[elkabong82]

Is the Prisoner doing the raping, Gay?

No other poster on here makes me go "wait, what?" as often as you do. Nobody else is even close.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It's almost staggering how many things we do wrong as far as national policy.

Prison reform is desperately needed. I can think of about 10 things off the top of my head.

But the bottom line is this: No one cares.

The only thing that moves the needle electorally (outside of the black community) is "more prisons/tougher sentences."

So...**** it.

[NavyDave]

No other poster on here makes me go "wait, what?" as often as you do. Nobody else is even close.

This was part of a discussion on an African American BBS. The prison guy who was interviewed justified having sex with another guy as taking care of his needs and desires and he did not view the victim as a man thus he was not gay.

[GhostofSparta]

Also, your first comment sort of backs me up. A quick, physical punishment without lingering pain (as would be the case with lashing, lingering pain and scars) is good for compliance in a small child who can't understand the world yet, but not so much for a teen, who is older and gaining in maturity (in comparison to a little kid, not an adult obviously, lol)...With lashing there is no explanation, it's regression to treating adults like small children who don't grasp much else in explanation, and with prison it's basically timeout but without any kind of discussion, just the assumption that they know what they did was wrong and why. We focus too much on punishment and don't take the time for actual rehabilitation or even prevention, because it's politically favorable to be "tough on crime" and attempts at understanding are viewed as "soft." I think this answers a good part of the second part of your post.

Sure fear can be a deterrent at times, but what happens to the effectiveness of that fear when physical punishment becomes a preferred solution to the one being punished? It is reduced significantly.

Well this is the point where it's hard to keep arguing with you because I essentially believe the same thing you do and can't keep pretending to support the other side. Prison is a much better way to prevent, deter, and rehab that a few quick lashes with a whip. On the philosophical side I can see where physical punishment might be less cruel than prison in some cases, but if we're going to shift the discussion to which is better for preventing and deterring crime then prison is obviously better.

As I stated initially, I can see the argument that for the innocent (especially those falsely imprisoned) that prison is a more cruel punishment, but that's getting into exceptions and semantics. Either way is cruel to them but 1 is less long-term damaging. But for society as a whole, yes prison is a better solution than public floggings and Colosseum-style executions.

[Prosperity]

Is the Prisoner doing the raping, Gay?

if prison made people gay would you be in favor of prison reform?

Prison is a much better way to prevent, deter, and rehab that a few quick lashes with a whip.

how do you know that?

I see a lot of assertions in this thread, that fly in the face of all available evidence.

---------- Post added June-17th-2011 at 06:30 PM ----------

just because the opportunity isn't taken doesn't mean it's not there. Like I said in a previous post to you, education in prison isn't taken seriously enough because any policy maker in favor of it will receive backlash that he/she is rewarding prisoners, so they take the easy, good looking on the surface route of just being hard on punishment.

Perhaps if education was mandated, instead of voluntary, there would be more headway.

My bad for thinking your comment about mutual exclusiveness with corporal punishment and education was actually relevant to what I was saying, clearly it too was not.

Hilarious you're throwing "genius" out there in a sarcastic manner when you've not only failed to grasp my point, but you've also tried arguing points against me that I never even made.

Other opportunities include reading, and even just sitting still and reflecting on their crime. And I agree that prisons don't do a good job of preventing repeats, that's why I think they need to have a serious, and mandated education program in there, where prisoners can get a GED, certification in some trade, so they have a better opportunity at gainful employment and contributing to society when they get out. We don't do that now, and the result, as you showed, is more people get raped in prison than educated. The opportunity is there, but it's neither mandated nor taken seriously enough to be as effective as it can be.

But even just the time to reflect and possibly learn from ones mistake, is a better method than simple physical punishment. And as I said, when physical punishment becomes a preferred punishment, instead of a feared one, it loses effectiveness.

time to reflect? That's your ace in the hole?

does that outweigh the time to acclimate to a cutthroat environment? Don't you realize that prison itself makes people worse?

BTW, you can compel people do all sorts of things without prison time... including education.

I just have a hard time with people accepting Prison as facially better than proposed reforms. Frankly, our system is so ****ed that all ideas should be looked at.

[elkabong82]

On the philosophical side I can see where physical punishment might be less cruel than prison in some cases.

We are in agreement on the rest of your post. Philosophically I can understand the argument that say life imprisonment is crueler than some forms of physical punishment because the mental anguish is longer lasting, overall though, I think physical punishment is more barbaric than prison because it would be, IMO, a regression back to old forms of punishment.

[NavyDave]

if prison rape made people gay would you be in favor of prison reform?

.

If by reform you mean build bigger and more prisons so they can have their own cell then yes. However comma pimps, rapists and pedophiles going thru the same thing they put their victims thru really does not bring tears to my eyes.

[elkabong82]

how do you know that?

I see a lot of assertions in this thread, that fly in the face of all available evidence.

---------- Post added June-17th-2011 at 06:30 PM ----------

time to reflect? That's your ace in the hole?

does that outweigh the time to acclimate to a cutthroat environment? Don't you realize that prison itself makes people worse?

BTW, you can compel people do all sorts of things without prison time... including education.

I just have a hard time with people accepting Prison as facially better than proposed reforms. Frankly, our system is so ****ed that all ideas should be looked at.

Fly in the face of all available evidence? How about the fact that historically it hasn't worked? Cutting peoples hands off did not deter theft, caning hasn't worked in Singapore, physical punishment isn't working in Iran, flogging didn't work, etc. etc.

Yeah, I know prison can make people worse, we were discussing previously how it can make repeat offenders. That has to do with the way a prison is run, which as I've stated I have issues with. But the concept of prison is not as barbaric as whipping.

I don't know what you're getting at with the "you can compel people do all sorts of things w/o prison time" comment, because I'm talking about exclusively education in prison being mandated, not compelled, mandated, in the context of prison. You're going outside of the context.

I have my own ideas for prison reform, and I've been sharing them in here. I don't think physical punishment is a viable answer. If it's an option, than the effectiveness of physical punishment is nullified as it becomes a preferred option for those being punished. Physical punishment like lashings is regressing in dealing with crime, not advancing. There's a reason we already moved past it, because it didn't work previously.

[PleaseBlitz]

a plausible theory, if it were not for the fact that prison time has proven to be an abject failure in preventing repeat offenses.

You misread my post. My point is that going to prison is having your time taken away from you. 5 minutes of pain is way better than losing 5 years of your life, because you can't get it back.

[Prosperity]

Fly in the face of all available evidence? How about the fact that historically it hasn't worked? Cutting peoples hands off did not deter theft, caning hasn't worked in Singapore, physical punishment isn't working in Iran, flogging didn't work, etc. etc.

what do you mean it "hasn't worked" in Singapore? I'm not saying we should follow Singapore's approach, but I'm fairly sure you are making **** up at this point.

Yeah, I know prison can make people worse, we were discussing previously how it can make repeat offenders. That has to do with the way a prison is run, which as I've stated I have issues with. But the concept of prison is not as barbaric as whipping.

Your ideas about prison are what spurred us to switch to prisons a hundred plus years ago. People though we could use prisons to do all the things you still think they can do. 150 years later and prisons are still hell holes that make citizens worse off than when they go in.

I don't know what you're getting at with the "you can compel people do all sorts of things w/o prison time" comment, because I'm talking about exclusively education in prison being mandated, not compelled, mandated, in the context of prison. You're going outside of the context.

Example: when you are on probation, the state can compel you to go to alcohol/drug classes, and be drug tested. If you don't they can send you to jail. The point is, all those things you are talking about can be imposed on individuals without requiring 24/7 confinement.

I have my own ideas for prison reform, and I've been sharing them in here. I don't think physical punishment is a viable answer. If it's an option, than the effectiveness of physical punishment is nullified as it becomes a preferred option for those being punished. Physical punishment like lashings is regressing in dealing with crime, not advancing. There's a reason we already moved past it, because it didn't work previously.

I like your ideas about prison reform and would definitely support them if I had the opportunity, but there isn't enough money or the political will to implement them. They have been a fantasy for well over a hundred years for those two reasons.

IMO corporal punishment can be an alternative to prison for some crimes. Example: Drug trafficking, pimping, fraud, embezzlement

I think prisons can still play a role, but they shouldn't be the go to answer as far as a remedy for crime... cause frankly the only benefit of prison is that it keeps the truly sociopathic elements of society isolated from everyone else.

---------- Post added June-17th-2011 at 08:12 PM ----------

You misread my post. My point is that going to prison is having your time taken away from you. 5 minutes of pain is way better than losing 5 years of your life, because you can't get it back.

no I get it, I'm just saying you can't say something works better if it doesn't work at all

[elkabong82]

what do you mean it "hasn't worked" in Singapore? I'm not saying we should follow Singapore's approach, but I'm fairly sure you are making **** up at this point.

Your ideas about prison are what spurred us to switch to prisons a hundred plus years ago. People though we could use prisons to do all the things you still think they can do. 150 years later and prisons are still hell holes that make citizens worse off than when they go in.

Example: when you are on probation, the state can compel you to go to alcohol/drug classes, and be drug tested. If you don't they can send you to jail. The point is, all those things you are talking about can be imposed on individuals without requiring 24/7 confinement.

I like your ideas about prison reform, but there isn't enough money or will to implement them. They have been a fantasy for well over a hundred years.

Caning isn't preventing crimes from happening in Singapore, it has a low crime rate, but a high incarceration rate. If that doesn't work for you, how about Malaysia which also uses caning and has an expanding crime rate? You seem to have ignored my other examples.

Prisons can be used for rehab and successful reintroduction into society after the sentence is served. The problem is that they aren't because crime and prison are over-politicized with hard-line stances.

I got you now with the compelling w/o prison, but even in your circumstance the threat of jail is what compels them to attend the classes, aside from those going willingly because they want that help. I was just talking about dealing with those already incarcerated, I agree though that requiring classes could be a good alternative to incarceration for certain crimes.

It's sad about the lack of money and will, because education, counseling, and good job training is the only thing, IMO, that can break the repeat offender cycle.

[Prosperity]

jails, fines, caning, whatever

it can't be that hard to force people to go to classes. I largely ignored your examples because so many factors separate a country like Iran from the US, apart from criminal justice system.

It's sad about the lack of money and will, because education, counseling, and good job training is the only thing, IMO, that can break the repeat offender cycle

I think we largely agree on this, I would just like us to consider things outside the prison model. Prison as it is right now, is as cruel as physical punishment. I s'pose we'll disagree on the innate cruelty of physical v. non-physical punishments, but thanks for at least thinking about alternatives. That's all I was asking for.