What do you expect the Redskins rushing attack to look like in 2011?

[s0crates]

Thanks for all the feedback on this one guys.

After having read your thoughts, here are a few of my own:

1) I do not have the confidence that a lot of you seem to have in our current group of runners. Not only is Torrain injury prone, but overall the group is not particularly talented. They lack speed and durability. They have historically not been very productive. As fish pointed out, it seems unrealistic to expect this group to be that much better next year than they have in the past.

2) I undertsand that Shanny is known for getting production from unheralded running backs, and I hope he can find a way to do so next season, but I would point out that he did not manage to do so last season with the players we have now. I still think we need to bring somebody in.

3) A few of the rookies you guys have mentioned look promising. What are our chances of drafting one? Maybe Shanny will get a late round sleeper. That could work. Da'Rel Scott looks good to me. We could obviously stand to add a speedster to the mix.

4) I like the idea of giving Kevin Smith a look. I do not think he would be the solution to our RB problems, but he could certainly provide competition and depth at the position, which could only help.

5) As several people have noted, our offensive line is a big part of our lack of production. We certainly could stand to upgrade our line, in fact that should be a top priority. I would agree the line is a higher priority than RB, but I maintain that RB is a position of need. I simply lack faith in the current group.

[eljeasel]

I seem to be in the minority here but......I have NO confidence in our ability to run the ball.

...

Having the same players in the same system for another year will help, but to what degree? Subject to significant personnel upgrades, I do not see how we can expect to be better next year than last.

Ok. I have to point something out here. The team averaged 91 yards per game on the ground. Its not great, but if you come out of a game with 91 yards on the ground, you would probably say "Solid."

Further, the team averaged 4.2 ypc. Again, thats really strong. 91 yards at 4.2 ypc. Especially considering that the team ran pretty much the same regardless of who was running back there, this is encouraging. It could be better and efforts to improve the ground game should be made. But it really isnt the crux of the failures offensively.

The failures offensively are still inconsistency, red zone scoring, turnovers, and 3rd downs. Lets be real here, a stronger running game could help all of these things.

Strengthening the interior OL is a priority for the entire offense, particularly ridding the (football) world of Casey Rabach. Stronger running game means shorter 2nd and 3rd downs, which should boost 3rd down conversions and reduce turnovers. Additionally, this could help the red zone scoring.

But theres no real one way to improve the running game. I vote for improving the clearly lacking interior line and continuing with cheap RBs, castoffs, late round picks, and UDFAs.

[s0crates]

Ok. I have to point something out here. The team averaged 91 yards per game on the ground. Its not great, but if you come out of a game with 91 yards on the ground, you would probably say "Solid."

Further, the team averaged 4.2 ypc. Again, thats really strong. 91 yards at 4.2 ypc. Especially considering that the team ran pretty much the same regardless of who was running back there, this is encouraging. It could be better and efforts to improve the ground game should be made. But it really isnt the crux of the failures offensively.

You make our running game sound respectable, but the simple fact of the matter is that we have been ranked toward the bottom of the league in rushing for the last two seasons.

But theres no real one way to improve the running game. I vote for improving the clearly lacking interior line and continuing with cheap RBs, castoffs, late round picks, and UDFAs.

This I could agree with.

[ABSTRACT]

Torain will be our starter. Dude is a beast.

I hope we pick up Kevin Smith from free agency and use him as our speed back.

and Darell Scott from MDU in the 5th round. I believe he can be a complete back for us.

[Shredmojo]

I'll vote for Demarco Murray aswell, He can do it all from the backfield, He showed this season he can make some tough runs, and take it the house from the outside. Sadly, he could probably be our #1 reciever if Moss goes too.

And despite what it looks like from the drafts, OU didn't have a great O-line the past 2 seasons

[ADF]

Ok. I have to point something out here. The team averaged 91 yards per game on the ground. Its not great, but if you come out of a game with 91 yards on the ground, you would probably say "Solid."

91 rushing yards per game for a single player would be great, but 91 rushing yards per game for an entire team is not "Solid". It is horrific. That's 30th in the league. The number one rushing team in the NFL had 164 yards per game.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

91 rushing yards per game for a single player would be great, but 91 rushing yards per game for an entire team is not "Solid". It is horrific. That's 30th in the league. The number one rushing team in the NFL had 164 yards per game.

This is for a whole other thread, but a BIG chunk of that fall's on some VERY questionable calling of games from the OC. When the run game was tearing it up, he inexplicably went away from it. The overall average could of been much higher if his dad had been in control of what he does best.

Hail.

[darrelgreenie]

1) Who will start next season? Torrain? In the likely event he gets hurt, who will back him up? I do not want a repeat of what I saw from our runners late last season.

2) Will we see better production in 2011 then we saw in 2009-2010? During the many weeks Portis has spent on IR over the last two years, the Redskins rarely had a consistent rushing attack, and rarely won. You might say that CP would have made no difference, and perhaps you would be right, but regardless of the cause we have not gotten good production from a running back in two years. Will 2011 be any different?

3) It seems to me that we need to bring somebody in at HB. I don't care if we find somebody in free agency or the draft, and I cannot think of any great prospects off the top of my head, but I do think we need to find a good runner this offseason somehow. You might be able to argue otherwise, but I just don't think Torrain and Williams inspire much confidence. Who should we bring in at HB?

Re: Starters?

Torain, Williams and James Davis.

I don't think we need to bring a big name at RB.

The RB position is no longer a high value draft pick and Mike Shanahan in particular has had success w/ developing later round draft picks.

I was happy w/ our backs last year.

I thought that Keiland Williams deserved more carries and I thought that Torain when healthy was a solid back.

Re: Better production in 2011?

Not unless Kyle decides to run the ball more.

I think the production form the running game as a unit is more important then the production of an individual RB.

But, we were 30th in attempts but had a were 16th in 4.2 ypa. (in 2009 were 29th in ypa).

Torain 4.5 ypa Keiland Williams 4.0 ypa.

The running game has improved; we just don't run it that much.

*I wouldn't mind seeing a late round or UDFA RB like Mario Fannin #27 from Auburn but I like our trio of backs and want to seem them get their chance

[Guest Spearfeather]

I hope Kyle doesn't abandon the run so early like he did in a lot of the games this year. To be honest I wouldn't mind if mike took over play calling.

I second that.

I don't really think we're that desperate at running back, but I'd like to see us pick up a back with more breakaway potential.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I expect to see Ryan Torain driving more Iggles, Gnats, and Cowgirls into the ground on the way to six.

While the other 10 games, he sits out injured lol

[s0crates]

Nice post darrelgreenie.

Re: Starters?

Torain, Williams and James Davis.

I don't think we need to bring a big name at RB.

The RB position is no longer a high value draft pick and Mike Shanahan in particular has had success w/ developing later round draft picks.

I was happy w/ our backs last year.

I thought that Keiland Williams deserved more carries and I thought that Torain when healthy was a solid back.

I agree and disagree. I agree we don't need a big name, but I was not happy with our backs last year.

Putting aside the obvious durability concern with the admittedly talented Torrain Train, we simply lack speed. I would be happy if we brought in somebody fast, but it need not necessarily be a big name player. As you put out, Shanny has a history of doing more with less (although I would note he was better with a T. Davis or C. Portis caliber player).

Re: Better production in 2011?

Not unless Kyle decides to run the ball more.

I think the production form the running game as a unit is more important then the production of an individual RB.

But, we were 30th in attempts but had a were 16th in 4.2 ypa. (in 2009 were 29th in ypa).

Torain 4.5 ypa Keiland Williams 4.0 ypa.

The running game has improved; we just don't run it that much.

A few people have pointed this out, but you put it well. I would certainly agree we should run the ball more.

[tml6157]

Give me a small, extremely quick, home run hitting RB like Locke in the draft. Torain is the starter and let Davis, Williams and the rookie battle it out.

[JoeSkins]

"Mediocre unless the team manages to pick up Jordan Todman to counterbalance Train," says the homer.

---------- Post added March-5th-2011 at 08:38 PM ----------

Jordon Todman from UCONN might be an option as well.

He's THE option.

OK, that's the last of my UCONN puffery.

[CommanderDOOM]

we definately need a back that can take it to the house. Maad times last year Torain would break one for about 10-15 yrds then get taken down.

[Chump Bailey]

I'd still like to see DeAngelo Williams become a Redskin.

[Oldfan]

Thanks for all the feedback on this one guys.

After having read your thoughts, here are a few of my own:

1) I do not have the confidence that a lot of you seem to have in our current group of runners. Not only is Torrain injury prone, but overall the group is not particularly talented. They lack speed and durability. They have historically not been very productive. As fish pointed out, it seems unrealistic to expect this group to be that much better next year than they have in the past.

I also lack the confidence that the majority of posters in your thread seem to have in Ryan Torain. In addition to being brittle, Torain isn't a playmaker. He's a #2 back and may be useful in power situations. This offense needs playmakers.

[eljeasel]

91 rushing yards per game for a single player would be great, but 91 rushing yards per game for an entire team is not "Solid". It is horrific. That's 30th in the league. The number one rushing team in the NFL had 164 yards per game.

While you are statistically correct, Im not sure how relevant those standings are. If you look at the tops of the league in rushing you dont see contenders there. Raiders, Cheifs, Jaguars, Vikings, and Texans. Sure you also find some other teams that are knocking on the door of success like the Eagles, Jets, and still the Pats. But the correlation between monster run game and victories isnt too strong.

At the bottom of the league in rushing you find Skins, Seahawks, Cardinals, along with the Colts, Saints, and the Packers. Again, my point was initially that the Skins 91 yards per game at 4.2 ypc isnt really as awful as we like to remember. Considering this was a new system, with a new LT, LG, RG, and RT and a platoon of scallywags at RB, maybe the best thing to do isnt anything drastic. Just bring in some more talent if you can to compete and let it grow.

Plus, if you need 160 yards on the ground consistently just to compete, maybe the problem isnt the run game.

Re: Better production in 2011?

Not unless Kyle decides to run the ball more.

I think the production form the running game as a unit is more important then the production of an individual RB.

But, we were 30th in attempts but had a were 16th in 4.2 ypa. (in 2009 were 29th in ypa).

Torain 4.5 ypa Keiland Williams 4.0 ypa.

The running game has improved; we just don't run it that much.

This is kind of what I was talking about. Way way too often we saw the team abandon the run. Alot of that is because of the inability to pick up 3rd downs. But some of that is on Jim "The Nose" Haslett. When your D cant stop basic plays, you fall behind and are forced to become overly one dimensional. Now that doesnt mean Kyle isnt guilty here.

You make our running game sound respectable, but the simple fact of the matter is that we have been ranked toward the bottom of the league in rushing for the last two seasons.

It sounds respectable because its not really that bad. In fact, the offense really isnt that bad. Would it be nice to have a running game that could get 150 yards a game at 5 ypc? Absolutely, but its a little ridiculous to game plan around that.

Darrelgreenie pointed out that the team just didnt run the ball enough. Even just with 3-4 more carries per game instead of throwing to Mike Sellers in the flat would probably get 9-20 yards and now youre talking about a run game that is firmy in the 100-110 ypg range. If those stats really matter to you that is.

As I said before in my previous post the problem isnt getting yards. The problems still are finishing drives, turnovers, consistency, and the red zone. Having a stronger run game would help in all of it but wont fix the problems on their own.

[Oldfan]

While you are statistically correct, Im not sure how relevant those standings are. If you look at the tops of the league in rushing you dont see contenders there. Raiders, Cheifs, Jaguars, Vikings, and Texans. Sure you also find some other teams that are knocking on the door of success like the Eagles, Jets, and still the Pats. But the correlation between monster run game and victories isnt too strong.

Are you arguing that a strong running game does not correlate to winning, or arguing that last year's running game was pretty good?

The argument that Kyle should have run more has to answer the question --why do you think he should have run more? My perception was that he ran when it was likely to work and didn't when it wasn't.

As an example, Tampa Bay's defensive strategy against the zone stretch was weak in the first half, so Kyle ran on nearly every down. If memory serves, Torain had 170 yards in the first half. In the second half TB made adjustments and stuffed the few early runs called. So, why stick with the run? The objective is to win the game not to get a higher ranking for the run game.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

As an example, Tampa Bay's defensive strategy against the zone stretch was weak in the first half, so Kyle ran on nearly every down. If memory serves, Torain had 170 yards in the first half. In the second half TB made adjustments and stuffed the few early runs called. So, why stick with the run? The objective is to win the game not to get a higher ranking for the run game.

Then why not mix it up with some play action for example as Tampa adjust to expect the run the second half? There's many more examples of some very questionable play calling last year. We had an inbalance of 351 runs to 605 passes in year one. All when we struggled at QB, and had success the few times we did commit to the run in games. (A team average of 4.2 yrds per attempt behind a poor line, with individual marks of 4.5, 4.2 and 4 yards per carry from the main three backs Torrain, Portis and Williams.). We had little to no commitment last year to a run game that wasn't too shabby the few times we did see it. And don't get me started on the pitiful 29% 3rd down success rate, a lot when we turned down short yardage runs for passing plays.

The kindest thing I could say about Kyle's O is it's a work in process.

Hail.

[Oldfan]

GHH: Then why not mix it up with some play action for example as Tampa adjust to expect the run the second half?

What makes you think that play action wasn't used enough?

There's many more examples of some very questionable play calling last year. We had an inbalance of 351 runs to 605 passes in year one. All when we struggled at QB...

Why do you think 58/42 is an out-of-line imbalance? Few teams are 50/50 in today's game.

... and had success the few times we did commit to the run in games. (A team average of 4.2 yrds per attempt behind a poor line, with individual marks of 4.5, 4.2 and 4 yards per carry from the main three backs Torrain, Portis and Williams.).

If Kyle used the run more when it was working and less when it wasn't, the numbers would look better than if he used it whether it was working or not.

And don't get me started on the pitiful 29% 3rd down success rate, a lot when we turned down short yardage runs for passing plays

I didn't notice that.

Clarifying my position: I rarely criticize play callers, whether it's Jim Zorn or Kyle Shanahan, because it's too easy to second-guess them unfairly when you don't know all the variables that went into their decision making.

[ADF]

While you are statistically correct...

Statistically is the only way to judge it. I don't care how we arrived at that stat or how it correlates to wins and losses. That wasn't my point. My only point is that you can't call the 30th ranked rushing attack "solid". Sure, there are teams that won while being ranked near the bottom in rushing. It just means that they won without a solid running game. If a losing team ran for 180 yards per game, then it still wouldn't change the fact that they had a strong running game.

[Guest Spearfeather]

I didn't notice that.

Clarifying my position: I rarely criticize play callers, whether it's Jim Zorn or Kyle Shanahan, because it's too easy to second-guess them unfairly when you don't know all the variables that went into their decision making.

I noticed it. There were many times last year, in short yardage situations, when Torain was standing on the sidelines.

Kyle went to the pass often in short yardage last year.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

What makes you think that play action wasn't used enough?

From watching the games. A prime example being the second half of the Tampa game you mentioned. That one I do remember as I wrote on it at the time on here.

Why do you think 58/42 is an out-of-line imbalance? Few teams are 50/50 in today's game.

When your run game is equally if not more effective than your pass game as the year went on, that's a big imbalance. Even with poor QB play and woeful line play at times, the run game was still effective. There was no consistency in mixing it up. It was one or the other. And often predictable. It all falls back to his under-utilization of the talent at his disposal. Freddy D springs instantly to mind, but that's for another thread.

If Kyle used the run more when it was working and less when it wasn't, the numbers would look better than if he used it whether it was working or not.

Not sure on the point your trying to make there Of as he didn't stick with it at times when we we're tearing up yards on the ground, so I'll leave that.

I didn't notice that.

Trust me on that Of, we did. I suggest you check the game logs to see the disparity in short yardage 3rd down situations from run to pass. It was criminal at times, and so obvious that we we're gona' pass it was untrue. The third down percentage, a pretty darn important offensive stat, was nothing short of criminal. Yes, execution is to blame. But so's a heck of a lot on some very dubious calls.

And let's not even start on red zone scoring, or lack there of. Again, the play calling down there left a LOT to be desired.

Clarifying my position: I rarely criticize play callers, whether it's Jim Zorn or Kyle Shanahan, because it's too easy to second-guess them unfairly when you don't know all the variables that went into their decision making.

This is true, but when your neither mixing it up when the D takes something away, nor sticking with something when they aren't, which even a blind man could see; questions need to be asked. That's without even getting into an OC that refused to alter his scheme to fit his players skill set. The QB they picked being a prime example.

Total aside, but that's about the laziest I've ever done a multiple quote reply. Sunday's, shrugs.

Hail.

[Conn]

In response to the OP, I see James Davis earning a large role in our RBBC this season during training camp. I think he's the most talented RB on this roster outside of Torain...and while I like Torain, his running style is not conducive to a long and healthy career. Davis can make some noise in this offense, once he gets used to the ZBS.

[Hitman21ST]

In response to the OP, I see James Davis earning a large role in our RBBC this season during training camp. I think he's the most talented RB on this roster outside of Torain...and while I like Torain, his running style is not conducive to a long and healthy career. Davis can make some noise in this offense, once he gets used to the ZBS.

I agree, I'm high on Davis. He was "Thunder" at Clemson, but he'll be "Lightning" to Torain's "Thunder" here.