Conn Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Answer me this...why did you use elk in your rhetorical question? If you can answer that, the other answers fall into place. I have no idea, but its probably because I was talking about eating elk last night. I have an uncle living in the northwest who hunts a lot haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 If you consider us, as humans, to merely be highly evolved creatures, who happen to be bipeds, have opposable thumbs, and higher brain function, then no, I guess not. What ethical limitations exist for a person who has decided that other human beings have no intrinsic value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 What ethical limitations exist for a person who has decided that other human beings have no intrinsic value? Those that they decide to live by, or those that they have been raised to believe in. Why can't someone personally value other human lives, while also believing that a human life has no inherent meaning or added value? Meaning, humans can value their own lives, and others. Even as a species, we can mostly do this. Why does that mean we can't also believe that we weren't put here for a purpose, or that we have no more value than any other entity on the planet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzSkinsFan63 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Ahh but can you die with that?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I have no idea, but its probably because I was talking about eating elk last night. I have an uncle living in the northwest who hunts a lot haha. So, do you understand it all now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 So, do you understand it all now? I'd have to start with understanding your question first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 What ethical limitations exist for a person who has decided that other human beings have no intrinsic value? Whatever ethical limitations they decide to endorse and abide by of their own accord. And the net result of that idea is wholly dangerous. There's a difference between believing that human life has no intrinsic value and believing that human life has no value whatsoever. The latter represents an undeniably dangerous frame of mind and one that is essentially only held by true sociopaths, the former is more or less a different interpretation of the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Whatever ethical limitations they decide to endorse and abide by of their own accord.There's a difference between believing that human life has no intrinsic value and believing that human life has no value whatsoever. The latter represents an undeniably dangerous frame of mind and one that is essentially only held by true sociopaths, the former is more or less a different interpretation of the status quo. Exactly, on both counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I'd have to start with understanding your question first. I was trying to be deep and I just don't do well with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I was trying to be deep and I just don't do well with that! Conn kind of ruined your mystique. He really needed to provide an answer that was at least as vague as the question itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I was trying to be deep and I just don't do well with that! Conn kind of ruined your mystique. He really needed to provide an answer that was at least as vague as the question itself. Damn, I killed it! Let's try again: So, do you understand it all now? Only as much as anything can be understood. Ah, to be an elk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Guy. Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 What ethical limitations exist for a person who has decided that other human beings have no intrinsic value? I think this argument can be made for anyone... there have been religious people who have believed others different from themselves have no value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 lol, is that how your STD thread started? I had an STD thread? :paranoid: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec138 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Agree/disagree? Agree. IMO it makes life that much more precious. It's really telling to me that some people fear they would become evil without a higher power to punish them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 There's a difference between believing that human life has no intrinsic value and believing that human life has no value whatsoever. The latter represents an undeniably dangerous frame of mind and one that is essentially only held by true sociopaths, the former is more or less a different interpretation of the status quo. You'll have to run that my me again. If I believe that humans have value for no other reason than that they are human, haven't I determined that humans have intrinsic value? ---------- Post added February-10th-2011 at 08:07 PM ---------- Those that they decide to live by, or those that they have been raised to believe in. Why can't someone personally value other human lives, while also believing that a human life has no inherent meaning or added value? They can. But that's a personal choice, isn't it? In the world view of the OP, some people will value humans. But if humans have no intrinsic value, what's to keep another healthy, sane, and reasonable person from killing people whenever they can get away with it for whatever reason they can imagine? I mean, if humans have no intrinsic value, isn't it reasonable that mentally healthy people will not value humanity and act accordingly? I prefer to believe that people who do not value humanity are sociopaths. The very act of seeing humanity as lacking value is an indication of mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 You'll have to run that my me again. If I believe that humans have value for no other reason than that they are human, haven't I determined that humans have intrinsic value? If you have to ascribe value to something does it really have innate value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Paint Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 They can. But that's a personal choice, isn't it? In the world view of the OP, some people will value humans. But if humans have no intrinsic value, what's to keep another healthy, sane, and reasonable person from killing people whenever they can get away with it for whatever reason they can imagine? I mean, if humans have no intrinsic value, isn't it reasonable that mentally healthy people will not value humanity and act accordingly? I prefer to believe that people who do not value humanity are sociopaths. The very act of seeing humanity as lacking value is an indication of mental illness. So you think that even if there were no punishment, most people would not kill another person for the slightest reason? I don't think that is correct. I think fear of punishment is what keeps me in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 If you have to ascribe value to something does it really have innate value? Why do I have to ascribe value to humanity? Are you saying that you believe humanity doesn't have value unless you ascribe value to it? Then my critique holds. In the world view of the OP, any mentally healthy person could decide humanity doesn't have value and act in any way he wishes. ---------- Post added February-10th-2011 at 08:35 PM ---------- So you think that even if there were no punishment, most people would not kill another person for the slightest reason? I don't think that is correct. I think fear of punishment is what keeps me in line. So, whenever you are in a position to steal from other people without fear of getting caught, you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Are you saying that you believe humanity doesn't have value unless you ascribe value to it? More or less. Then my critique holds. What critique? You've posed lot of questions challenging the premise but I'm not really seeing an assertion unless I missed one of your posts. Another mentally healthy person could just as easily decide humanity doesn't have value and act in any way he wishes. A person who is of sound mental health will still be cognizant of the consequences of their own actions and will still play by the rules of others to a certain extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 More or less. Interesting. So, in a world where each person decides whether or not humanity has value, some mentally healthy people will obviously decide humanity does not have value, right? A person who is of sound mental health will still be cognizant of the consequences of their own actions and will still play by the rules of others to a certain extent. Why? Some people are inclined to play by rules because they value rules, but others don't. There's nothing about following rules that, in itself, indicates mental health. If I think I can get away with stealing, raping, and killing without suffering consequences, why wouldn't I? Maybe I'm more creative than others, but can think of any number of ways to take advantage of people around me. I would never do it but fear of personal danger is not a motivating factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Agree. IMO it makes life that much more precious. It's really telling to me that some people fear they would become evil without a higher power to punish them. Humans do what they do and they will do immoral things to one another, now they may claim to believe in a higher power but do not demonstrate it by their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec138 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Interesting. So, in a world where each person decides whether or not humanity has value, some mentally healthy people will obviously decide humanity does not have value, right? Why? Some people are inclined to play by rules because they value rules, but others don't. There's nothing about following rules that, in itself, indicates mental health. If I think I can get away with stealing, raping, and killing without suffering consequences, why wouldn't I? Maybe I'm more creative than others, but can think of any number of ways to take advantage of people around me. I would never do it but fear of personal danger is not a motivating factor. Luckily humans evolved a form of empathy that can also be seen in our Bonobo and Chimpanzee cousins. Social animals that are weak on their own really require trust in those around you to thrive; it's not surprising at all that we developed morality. Even those of us who don't see humanity as anything more special than the other animals who inhabit the Earth still have morals (though I do admire the large differences in intellect and other human features over our animal counterparts). If we didn't we'd probably be called psychopaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Luckily humans evolved a form of empathy that can also be seen in our Bonobo and Chimpanzee cousins. Social animals that are weak on their own really require trust in those around you to thrive; it's not surprising at all that we developed morality. Even those of us who don't see humanity as anything more special than the other animals who inhabit the Earth still have morals (though I do admire the large differences in intellect and other human features over our animal counterparts). If we didn't we'd probably be called psychopaths. You do not see anilmals shipping the means of living others in the group have off to other places to take advantage of slave labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec138 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 You do not see anilmals shipping the means of living others in the group have off to other places to take advantage of slave labour. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but if you clarify I'll take a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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