It's not all about the Almighty Quarterback, dummies!

[terpskins10]

Gabbert had literally everything you looked for in a QB skillset wise - strong arm, quick release, pretty accurate thrower , big...but he was mediocre on the field, had no pocket presence, and was skittish under pressure. Griffin doesn't have quite the arm, or quite the size, but he definitely doesn't have the issues that Gabbert did coming out.

Yeah, I saw all of that already in Gabbert but his lack of production scared me. Especially considering a considerably lesser talented player in Chase Daniel was extremely productive in the same offense. He also didn't seem to elevate his teammates like RG3 or even Dalton did in college. If you ask me, if a guy can't make his teammates better in college, he's not going to do it in the NFL. That's why losing QBs in college tend to continue to be losing QBs in the NFL (though Gabbert did win a lot of games).

[ArmchairRedskin]

We won't, and I'll throw the offer out there again, anyone who wants to sig bet I'm game.

Sig bet? Really? Lame.

I think we do trade up, though. And I think we trade up for Griffin. His talent is too good to pass up. Shanahan is telling eveybody with an ear that he wants a franchise QB. I don't see any better option out there. Everybody outside of Luck and Griffin is a consolation prize.

[MartinC]

Gabbert at 10 was good value? How exactly did he help the Jags this year?

It's way early to be closing the book on Gabbert and declaring him a bust. He was very badly handled and played on a team with a very good running back and nothing else - his receivers were non existant - he should have spent the year holding a clipboard.

No question he was very shaky and there was always a question mark about how he handled pressure and his pocket presence - questions which have got much bigger after last year. He needs much better coaching, some receivers who can get open and better blocking from his line - then of course he needs to stop looking at the rush and learn to hang in the pocket and make some throws down field. I'm not sure you can coach pocket presence though but still would not write him off yet.

[Hitman21ST]

We won't, and I'll throw the offer out there again, anyone who wants to sig bet I'm game.

We won't draft RG3, or we don't trade up?

[ArmchairRedskin]

The problems with Gabbert stem from his poor transition to taking the snap from under center. He didn't do it in college. He was in the shotgun and most times he didn't even drop back any. He caught it, pivoted, and threw the ball. When he was pressured he didn't make many plays. Now he's dropping back and looks thoroughly uncomfortable doing it. He feels ghost pressure and he can't even execute a play action fake right. He looks awkward all around. People scouting him from watching his games had no way of knowing how he'd function under center. You'd have to see his workouts. I think that's where a lot of people went wrong. Gabbert is exactly why the transition from the shotgun spread to a pro set is made such a big deal out of. Some guys just don't have it in them. Luckily for us, Griffin has been under center and it doesn't present any problems for him.

[Mahons21]

We won't draft RG3, or we don't trade up?

Won't trade up to draft RG3. I'm not opposed to draft him at 6 whatsoever.

[ArmchairRedskin]

The fact that Shanahan said that drafting a franchise QB is easier said than done makes me think that when he sees the guy he wants, he'll do what ever is necessary to grab him. That would include moving up from 6 to 2 to ensure he gets his man.

[Mahons21]

It's way early to be closing the book on Gabbert and declaring him a bust. He was very badly handled and played on a team with a very good running back and nothing else - his receivers were non existant - he should have spent the year holding a clipboard.

No question he was very shaky and there was always a question mark about how he handled pressure and his pocket presence - questions which have got much bigger after last year. He needs much better coaching, some receivers who can get open and better blocking from his line - then of course he needs to stop looking at the rush and learn to hang in the pocket and make some throws down field. I'm not sure you can coach pocket presence though but still would not write him off yet.

You've come into an argument late, and you're misunderstanding my point.

[MartinC]

You've come into an argument late, and you're misunderstanding my point.

Just responding to our comment questioning Gabbert was good value at 10 last year. Its too early to tell IMO.

In what way have I misunderstood that comment?

[Mahons21]

Just responding to our comment questioning Gabbert was good value at 10 last year. Its too early to tell IMO.

In what way have I misunderstood that comment?

Ugh, you're really gonna make me do a point by point timeline eh?

Posters made the assertion:

A.) Elite QBs are mainly found in the top 10 of the draft

B.) Elite QBs can elevate the level of play of their supporting cast, so much so that having a Gaffney/Driver/Manningham as a #1 receiver would be ok for an elite QB.

If this is the case, than Gabbert a QB drafted in the top 10 should have the talent to be elite, and it shouldn't matter that he doesn't have an all-star supporting cast because he should be elevating there game.

Personally I don't think Gabbert is all that great, nor did I last year. But I imagined many of the people who are now arguing for trading up for RG3 were on the Gabbert band-wagon last year. These same people have also made the assertion

C.) We could have won multiple more games this year with a QB.

Since many of them wanted Gabbert, I was simply pointing out that Gabbert, who they wanted last year, was unable to do what many of them expect from top 10 QBs (elevate the rest of the team), or add a significant difference in the W/L column.

For multiple factors many of which you're well aware of, and I'm too lazy to list.

---------- Post added January-25th-2012 at 06:32 PM ----------

Sig bet? Really? Lame.

I think we do trade up, though. And I think we trade up for Griffin. His talent is too good to pass up. Shanahan is telling eveybody with an ear that he wants a franchise QB. I don't see any better option out there. Everybody outside of Luck and Griffin is a consolation prize.

Your argument has hit rock bottom when you're quoting MS as evidence to support your claim. The man is known for the games he plays with the media.

---------- Post added January-25th-2012 at 06:36 PM ----------

I find it extremely irritating to have bits and pieces of numerous posts picked out, that take off into other debates of which I could care less about. My point is that the Redskins are far from a QB away from contending.

Drafting RG3 won't turn Gaffney into Reggie Wayne, nor will it make Orakpo the elite pass-rusher many of us once hoped for. It won't change the fact that our line is mediocre, and the fact that our team sorely lacks play-makers (players who force the opponent to alter their scheme).

Thus it isn't in the teams best interest to trade away draft picks that could turn out to be the play-makers we so sorely need.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Really? Last offseason Shanahan told everybody that our biggest need was another OLB. What did we draft first?

[Win4us]

It's still way early to judge ShanAllen's drafts so far so imo this 2012 draft is paramount in deciding. Team Vinnie has straight ****ed this team up with trading picks away like they were candy. If we NEVER trade away another pick it would be fine by me.

I'll readily agree that we need a new and improved QB, what i disagree with the majority here is what do we give up to get him. RG3 will catch the David Carr/Sam Bradford syndrome pretty damn quick unless the FO does a better job at getting protection. So far not impressed but willing to see what happens THIS April before judgement. A highly touted QB won't be worth squat when he has zero time to survey the field before getting smashed by our o-lines whiffs.

[DogofWar1]

The fact that Shanahan said that drafting a franchise QB is easier said than done makes me think that when he sees the guy he wants, he'll do what ever is necessary to grab him. That would include moving up from 6 to 2 to ensure he gets his man.

He's probably going to be much more proactive in getting the QB this year than last. I think the run on QBs surprised him last year, and he probably won't let that happen again. Since everyone basically expects Griffin to go by 4 at the latest, I think Shanahan, if he does want Griffin, will push for him hard this year.

It's still way early to judge ShanAllen's drafts so far so imo this 2012 draft is paramount in deciding. Team Vinnie has straight ****ed this team up with trading picks away like they were candy. If we NEVER trade away another pick it would be fine by me.

I'll readily agree that we need a new and improved QB, what i disagree with the majority here is what do we give up to get him. RG3 will catch the David Carr/Sam Bradford syndrome pretty damn quick unless the FO does a better job at getting protection. So far not impressed but willing to see what happens THIS April before judgement. A highly touted QB won't be worth squat when he has zero time to survey the field before getting smashed by our o-lines whiffs.

I think our line can be upgraded this offseason pretty substantially even without having to draft guys early. There are three superb guards available in Grubbs, Nicks, and Myers, and the OT depth in the draft is deep enough that we could add very solid depth even into the 3rd round, and some of those guys might drop to the 4th, as there are 12 OTs rated above 70/100. If nothing else, we'll add solid depth to the line so long as we address OT before the 5th round.

We also have to remember that this offseason should help better prepare our line than last year. No offseason certainly caused problems, and on top of that a bunch of starters got injured. The line was looking pretty good early on and at the end of the year, the middle of the season saw a lot of problems due to the major injuries and shuffling around.

I also think that Griffin will be elusive enough and have a quick enough throwing motion to avoid hits and sacks a lot as well. I don't see him getting Carr syndrome, our line is better than that with starters and the backups even showed they were better than that over the final couple weeks. His ability to roll out and throw on the run will also give him more time to survey the field, and his arm, which is quite impressive on the move, will ensure we can get it to the open guy when the play breaks down. Finally, our WR corp should get a boost via FA and the draft, and should be strong enough to force teams to drop into coverage more. Davis, Gaffney, Hankerson, and possibly a couple FA signings would get us to a dangerous group (imagine the corp if we added a #1 in Bowe and then a burner in Royal). Teams won't just be able to mark Gaffney and Moss like last year, there should be guys out there that can create solid mismatches.

[Hitman21ST]

I posted this in the Chuck Pagano thread, but it's about QBs, so I'll repost it here...

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Pagano is going to stick with Manning for the time being.

Pagano will undoubtedly want to switch to a 3-4 punch you in the mouth defense. Something their current defense isn't built to do. Manning is a known quantity and can keep the offense running effectively. So here's how I see it playing out:

Colts trade out of the #1 pick (hopefully to us). With the dearth of picks they will then have, Pagano can take 3-4 defenders: OLB, NT, and DE. He could probably find at least one starter at each position through the draft, and then again through free agency. Paul Soliai from the Dolphins, Adam Carriker, then two OLBs and DEs from the draft. Trading back to 6, he'll get a lot of picks and still be able to take Coples, Upshaw, or Keuchley. Or he could trade back again and get even more picks.

Then he can trade up next year since he'll have at least 2 first rounders and take Matt Barkley to sit behind Manning until he retires.

[ArmchairRedskin]

People should really stop leaning on the argument that Shanahan is known for playing games with the media. You act like every word out of his mouth is a lie.

He's actually been pretty forthright with his intentions. He said last year our focus would be on defense and that he wanted to help out Rak most of all and get him the other bookend. That's exactly what we did. If he's saying this year that he wants to focus on offense and that he wants a franchise QB, then you should probably take him at his word. Sure he wont go into detail about draft strategy or players he wants to target, but when he mentions a specific position, it's probably because he means it.

I challenge anybody to find me a quote from his head coaching career where he says he wants to upgrade a certain postion and then goes into the season with the same guy. That would be detrimental to his relationship with the player he has in that postion. It just wouldn't be a smart move.

Seriously, does anybody really doubt that he wants his franchise guy? He mentions the words "franchise QB'. To me that indicates he sees one that he thinks fits that bill. Now, I can't say for certain that it's RG3 or Luck or maybe another guy. I just go off of what I've seen of the guys. To me there is a dropoff, and that seems to be the consensus amongst scouts.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

What will it take for people to realize that our protection, while not top 10 in the NFL, was nowhere near bad last year? Especially consider that we basically reshuffled the line in the middle of the season? I mean, people probably still think us giving up 10 sacks to the Bills was our OL being awful instead of Beck sucking.

This isn't 2009 anymore.

Drafting RG3 won't turn Gaffney into Reggie Wayne, nor will it make Orakpo the elite pass-rusher many of us once hoped for. It won't change the fact that our line is mediocre, and the fact that our team sorely lacks play-makers (players who force the opponent to alter their scheme).

Thus it isn't in the teams best interest to trade away draft picks that could turn out to be the play-makers we so sorely need.

Even if we use best case projections for every pick, I'd rather have an elite playmaker at QB than 3 elite playmakers at other positions. QB is that important. If RGIII turns out to be the guy, I'd rather have him + Gaffney over a Flacco-level guy and DeMarcus Ware at another position.

[Hitman21ST]

I find it extremely irritating to have bits and pieces of numerous posts picked out, that take off into other debates of which I could care less about. My point is that the Redskins are far from a QB away from contending.

Drafting RG3 won't turn Gaffney into Reggie Wayne, nor will it make Orakpo the elite pass-rusher many of us once hoped for. It won't change the fact that our line is mediocre, and the fact that our team sorely lacks play-makers (players who force the opponent to alter their scheme).

Thus it isn't in the teams best interest to trade away draft picks that could turn out to be the play-makers we so sorely need.

No, but RG3 or Luck along with free agency and the other draft picks could turn us into contenders.

People have a bad habit of excluding everyone else acquired via the draft and free agency to only focus on RG3. If we have another draft and free agency like last year, we very well could find playmakers to go around RG3, let alone Hankerson, Helu, and Davis. We're not completely devoid of talent. We're not just going to have one pick in the draft. Relax

[ArmchairRedskin]

Gaffney is actually a very good receiver. Tom Brady is mad because he lost Gaffney. He said something along the lines of Gaffney being the brightest guy that he's played with, that Gaffney always knows where to be. Says he picks things up very quickly.

Brady quote

On Gaffney: ”Jab could do everything well. I think that’s his versatility, he’s got good size, he’s got long arms, he’s got good speed, he’s got good quickness, he plays every position, he’s smart. He’s just one of those guys that, from the day we got him here, he was just so reliable and dependable because he knew what to do and he did it well. You gain a lot of trust from the quarterback when all those things matchup. I was bummed when he went to Denver and I was bummed when he went to Washington and here we are playing them.

He's not a gamebreaker, but he doesn't need to be. We need a guy to fill that role still, sure. We have that potential in Hank. We can get a FA. There are a lot of good ones out there. I would say that Griff could make Helu very dangerous. I wouldn't sleep on that combo. Freddy D could be a lot more dangerous with better placed deep passes. Remember all the times Fred had to slow down or adjust and it caused him to be caught from behind?

Griff can take the top off a defense with his deep ball accuracy. You can't overvalue a QB with a great deep ball. It's a game changing trait. Rex lacks it and McNabb was very inconsistent with his. Griff is a lot more consistent. You have that threat, and it opens up everything else.

[Win4us]

What will it take for people to realize that our protection, while not top 10 in the NFL, was nowhere near bad last year? Especially consider that we basically reshuffled the line in the middle of the season? I mean, people probably still think us giving up 10 sacks to the Bills was our OL being awful instead of Beck sucking.

This isn't 2009 anymore.

....

Well for me it would take actual attention with higher draft picks, between rds 1-4 and no more of this 5th round on BS. We haven't drafted a quality caliber RT since 1999, and since we cut him years ago it's showed by not re-addressing it properly.

I realize our o-line needed shuffled this season, and numerous times at that. Though to say our line is okay, or even average is just a NO.

The skins were 26th in overall offense, 27th in rushing td's, 25th in rushing yards, 25th in rush yard average and 3rd from last in QB hits. That's more than JUST the QB, it's a leaky and illmatched line. Now I admit we need a new QB that won't turn the ball over with every other pass but for anyone saying we're fine with our line is kidding themselves.

[Mahons21]

No, but RG3 or Luck along with free agency and the other draft picks could turn us into contenders.

People have a bad habit of excluding everyone else acquired via the draft and free agency to only focus on RG3. If we have another draft and free agency like last year, we very well could find playmakers to go around RG3, let alone Hankerson, Helu, and Davis. We're not completely devoid of talent. We're not just going to have one pick in the draft. Relax

Every team in the NFL is going to be using the draft and FA to improve. The Redskins have to find a way not only to match the level of improvement from teams in their division, but they also have go beyond it since we're currently behind. Trading multiple high draft picks that could be used at other positions of need, does anything but optimize our chances of succeeding at the goal of improving during the offseason.

No one is suggesting its RG3 than nothing, but it is RG3, the loss of a 2nd rd pick and next years first. That's a high price to pay for one player that is not a guarantee to be successful.

---------- Post added January-25th-2012 at 08:25 PM ----------

Now I admit we need a new QB that won't turn the ball over with every other pass but for anyone saying we're fine with our line is kidding themselves.

Some of them believe Jabar Gaffney is a legit #1 receiver, trust me they're kidding themselves.

[DogofWar1]

Well for me it would take actual attention with higher draft picks, between rds 1-4 and no more of this 5th round on BS. We haven't drafted a quality caliber RT since 1999, and since we cut him years ago it's showed by not re-addressing it properly.

I realize our o-line needed shuffled this season, and numerous times at that. Though to say our line is okay, or even average is just a NO.

The skins were 26th in overall offense, 27th in rushing td's, 25th in rushing yards, 25th in rush yard average and 3rd from last in QB hits. That's more than JUST the QB, it's a leaky and illmatched line. Now I admit we need a new QB that won't turn the ball over with every other pass but for anyone saying we're fine with our line is kidding themselves.

I think those stats are exaggerated by the exceedingly poor play in the middle of the year, due to injuries more than anything.

Hightower went down and Torain was completely ineffective. This went on for many weeks until Helu and Royster really came around. Helu getting injured for a couple weeks set us back too. Now we know that Royster, Helu, and Hightower are all competent backs. Any injuries to one of them should not cause a major disruption like last year. I think we'll be in the top 15 for rushing next year with that group of 3.

Beyond that, improving the line won't do much if Grossman continues to throw a minimum of one INT a game. We could re-create the Hogs and he'd still have a minimum of 16 INTs. Cut his INTs in half from this year and our offense would look much better, easily top 20 from that alone.

The line does need to be upgraded, but our ceiling with a much improved line will be significantly lower than our ceiling with a large upgrade at QB.

We can do both though. There are some solid starter OGs in FA, and there's depth in the draft for OT, even as late as the 3rd or 4th. That would leave us with a 1st and 2nd to address QB. If that leads us to RGIII, that would be great. We will have to add a starter RT eventually but I think that pursuing an RT over a QB would be a mistake.

Also, OG depth in the draft is pretty bad and no one outside the top 2 (who probably go in the 1st) is worth anything higher than a 3rd rounder. As such we'll have to address that via FA anyway.

[Skinsfan4life83]

Redskins fans ALWAYS devalue our talent. We are ALWAYS mediocre or poor at any given position. Forget the fact that we have two fearsome young OLBs. Some people think they should be hall of famers.

Fact is we have solid talent at wide receiver, tightend and runningback. A franchise QB will only make them better.

Not to mention our oline is underrated. Trent, Kory, Smith and maurice are solid players. They proved that last year.

[Hitman21ST]

Every team in the NFL is going to be using the draft and FA to improve. The Redskins have to find a way not only to match the level of improvement from teams in their division, but they also have go beyond it since we're currently behind. Trading multiple high draft picks that could be used at other positions of need, does anything but optimize our chances of succeeding at the goal of improving during the offseason.

No one is suggesting its RG3 than nothing, but it is RG3, the loss of a 2nd rd pick and next years first. That's a high price to pay for one player that is not a guarantee to be successful.

The difference that RG3 or Luck makes is significantly more than what those three picks would make. You can only upgrade at the other positions so much before you have to take that shot. We are at that point. The level of talent available at QB in this year's draft is significantly more than at other positions for our needs. Now is the time to take the dive for the QB. Shanahan has hit in every round of the draft for us. That's definitively above average. Another draft like that or two and we'll be in a good spot.

Some of them believe Jabar Gaffney is a legit #1 receiver, trust me they're kidding themselves.

I don't think Gaffney is the number one receiver. Hankerson is going to be our number one, Gaffney will be our number two.

[Mahons21]

The difference that RG3 or Luck makes is significantly more than what those three picks would make. You can only upgrade at the other positions so much before you have to take that shot. We are at that point. The level of talent available at QB in this year's draft is significantly more than at other positions for our needs. Now is the time to take the dive for the QB. Shanahan has hit in every round of the draft for us. That's definitively above average. Another draft like that or two and we'll be in a good spot.

Why do we have to take a shot? Not a lot of teams out there that I can think of off the top of my head, outside of the Bears/NYG, who have taken a shot and really had success, and the Bears case is different because Cutler was a proven NFL commodity.

Look at all the playoff QBs and what they cost their team. Eli is the only one I can think of that cost multiple high picks(2 1sts, 3rd), and hindsight 20/20 I'm not so sure the Giants wouldn't prefer to have Rivers and a 1st/3rd rd draft choice compared to Eli.

We don't have to take a shot.

I don't think Gaffney is the number one receiver. Hankerson is going to be our number one, Gaffney will be our number two.

Never said I was referring to you, read over the past couple of pages and you'll find members who agree with you about the exaggerated impact a QB can have, also believe that Gaffney is a legit #1.

[Hitman21ST]

Why do we have to take a shot? Not a lot of teams out there that I can think of off the top of my head, outside of the Bears/NYG, who have taken a shot and really had success, and the Bears case is different because Cutler was a proven NFL commodity.

Look at all the playoff QBs and what they cost their team. Eli is the only one I can think of that cost multiple high picks(2 1sts, 3rd), and hindsight 20/20 I'm not so sure the Giants wouldn't prefer to have Rivers and a 1st/3rd rd draft choice compared to Eli.

We don't have to take a shot.

You take the shot because with Luck or RG3, you can end the QB question for the next 10-15 years. He would cover up the holes that were left from the other picks. You could wait and hope you fall into a Detroit situation where you get a dominant receiver and top QB, however that would require sucking horribly. This is the closest we'll be to a top QB in the draft for a while. We have a prime spot for trading up.

We're not going to miss those picks when we're competing for a bye year in and year out.