USN: 10 Worst Presidents in US History...

[JMS]

They joined after Pearl Harbor - we were funding the Allies with weapons - in 1939, Congress revised the Neutrality Act allowing the sale of arms to the United Kingdom on a cash-and-carry basis

Except then Britain ran out of money, and FDR continued supplying them weapons under the lend lease act. Which gave Britain weapons and only proposed charging them for them after the war if those weapons weren't capable of being returned to us.

FDR likenned this policy to allowing your neighbor to borrow your garden hose to put out his burning house. You don't haggle with him as his house is burning in the background; you say take the hose and we'll settle up latter.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Except then Britain ran out of money, and FDR continued supplying them weapons under the lend lease act. Which gave Britain weapons and only proposed charging them for them after the war if those weapons weren't capable of being returned to us.

FDR likenned this policy to allowing your neighbor to borrow your garden hose to put out his burning house. You don't haggle with him as his house is burning in the background; you say take the hose and we'll settle up latter.

Look what else went up at that time - the National Debt

It wasnt about the money in return for the products, it was about putting people to work - which was a great success. I'm guessing we got our money back once the war was over because it shows the debt dropped dramatically

[Titaw]

1) They would have found them by now.

2,3) Bush never vetoed a single piece of Republican legislation that hit his desk.

4) Horrible handling of Katrina situation

5) Only acting fast when the matter concerned his party, like Terry Shiavo and the rapid response legislation.

6) Pushed gov't interference with marriage, denying rights of Americans based solely on sexual orientation

7) Banned stem cell research simply because of it's source

8) Ignored Korea's real attempt at compiling WMDs

9) Ushered in a new Red Scare era by politicizing any dissent as assisting terrorists, simultaneously dividing Americans and completely blundering one of the best opportunities in American history to unite more or less the entire population.

10) The Patriot Acts

11) Gitmo

12) torture

13) warrantless wire tapping

14) most vacation days by a President ever

15) 9/11, despite several warnings ahead of time from government intelligence offices. (happened on his watch despite the warnings, failed to react immediately (stayed in school reading to kids), but the entire blame doesn't go to him of course)

16) In the aftermath, never actually did anything to improve border security nor dock security

17) Annoucing war victory way, way prematurely in Iraq

18) Allowing global image and foreign relations of US to deteriorate to abysmal levels

..... and that's without even mentiong the corruption within his own party, which led to loosening restrictions in mortgage and stock industries and the financial district, which in turn led to near-economic collapse. Grant gets balmed for the corruption f his party and his complicity, so too does Bush.

1) You tell a drug dealer that you are going to raid his house a few months from now. You think you are going to find any drugs when you raid his house in a few months? The WMD are no longer in Iraq, because we gave them ample notice.

2,3) sooooo what's your point?

4) You really want to pin Katrina on Bush. What about the state and local officials that sat idly by. Or FEMA who half-assed relief efforts. BTW Bush was the President of the US not the head of FEMA.

5) All Presidents and politicians for that fact are guilty of such acts.

6) I may not agree with his stance but yet another issue where all politicians are guilty of sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.

7) Did not ban ALL stem cell research, just certain types

8) Korea having WMD isn't a big deal. They aren't dumb enough to attack anyone on the planet with WMD.

9) Americans do not care about anyone else other than themselves. 9/11 was a lose/lose for any President. Feel bad for the nation for a few months but eventually and sooner than anyone thought, Americans went back to their normal routines.

10) Nothing really wrong with them

11) Nothing wrong here

12) When did Bush waterboard anyone?

13) Hate to break it to you but it had been going on well before Bush ever got into office

14) can't argue that point

15) 9/11 was not on Bush at all. If anything it was on the Intelligence Community and their refusal to share information between agencies.

16) No President has ever and will ever do anything to improve border security, too many votes at stake

17) Technically the mission was accomplished. The insurgency was a new animal entirely.

18) can't argue that point either

[JMS]

1) yes - before Pearl Harbor meaning the years before Pearl Harbor - look at the graph, 1939 at the start of WWII, the unemployment rate looks to be around 15.5% and starts dropping once the US started funding the Allies - by 1940/1941, you see it drops even more because of the foreign military sales programs due to the increased factory production due to the increased factory demand due to the demand for more labor. :pfft:

Exactly.. Years before Pearl Harbor unemployment was 15%, which hardly supports your parroting what has become misplaced convention wisdom.

It's rather hard to make the case that military spending accounted for the drop 3-4% drop in unemployment from 38 to 41 especially when you note that the unemployment rate droped faster, from 23% to 14% in 1935-1937.. well before the west started to rearm.

Also if one actually takes the time to see what the US military was doing in the "build up to war".. We weren't doing much... Our big increase in war spending came in 1942, not 1939. In 1939 our troops were still using wheel barrows to serve as tanks and mops to serve as machine guns in training because Roosevelt had sent our weapons to Europe and China and our manufacturing capability wasn't sufficiently ramped up to replace them yet.

Fact is when Pearl Harbor occured December 7, 1941; America had a military about the size of Belguim; only not as well equiped.

2) How come unemployment rose after both the first and the second New Deals in 1936?

chronology?. unemployment went down 8-9 points after the new deal policies were implemented in 1933-1936. That's pretty darned effective. Especially when you note unemployment went up every year the previous Hoovers administration. The fact it along with every other economic indicator ( which you don't like talking about) in Roosevelts first year in office is an amaizing accomplishment.

In 1936 FDR tried to balance the budget while the economy was weak. causing the economy to slip into a recession in the middle of his recovery.

[SnyderShrugged]

1) They would have found them by now.

2,3) Bush never vetoed a single piece of Republican legislation that hit his desk.

4) Horrible handling of Katrina situation

5) Only acting fast when the matter concerned his party, like Terry Shiavo and the rapid response legislation.

6) Pushed gov't interference with marriage, denying rights of Americans based solely on sexual orientation

7) Banned stem cell research simply because of it's source

8) Ignored Korea's real attempt at compiling WMDs

9) Ushered in a new Red Scare era by politicizing any dissent as assisting terrorists, simultaneously dividing Americans and completely blundering one of the best opportunities in American history to unite more or less the entire population.

10) The Patriot Acts

11) Gitmo

12) torture

13) warrantless wire tapping

14) most vacation days by a President ever

15) 9/11, despite several warnings ahead of time from government intelligence offices. (happened on his watch despite the warnings, failed to react immediately (stayed in school reading to kids), but the entire blame doesn't go to him of course)

16) In the aftermath, never actually did anything to improve border security nor dock security

17) Annoucing war victory way, way prematurely in Iraq

18) Allowing global image and foreign relations of US to deteriorate to abysmal levels

..... and that's without even mentiong the corruption within his own party, which led to loosening restrictions in mortgage and stock industries and the financial district, which in turn led to near-economic collapse. Grant gets balmed for the corruption f his party and his complicity, so too does Bush.

Intersting how many items in this list are things that Obama has adopted, embraced, or expanded despite the rhetoric against in his campaigning.

more of the same, again and again. Obama=Bush

[JMS]

Look what else went up at that time - the National Debt

It wasnt about the money in return for the products, it was about putting people to work - which was a great success. I'm guessing we got our money back once the war was over because it shows the debt dropped dramatically

Yes, that's true. WWII and the new deal cost money. We retooled our entire industry and invented entirely new technologies and really outproduced all the other combatants of WWII on both sides of the conflict...

Note on your graph 1936 when FDR did try to balance out the budget, and the resulting drop in Employment on your other graph, along with a drop in GNP if you had placed that graph up.

Honestly though.. You know when we had completed our gearing up for WWII? 1943 or 1944....

Check out our airplane manufacturing numbers...

1939 -----------2,141

1940 -----------6,086

1941 ---------19,433

1942----------47,836

1943----------85,898

1944----------96,318

1945----------46,001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Exactly.. Years before Pearl Harbor unemployment was 15%, which hardly supports your parroting what has become misplaced convention wisdom.

It's rather hard to make the case that military spending accounted for the drop 3-4% drop in unemployment from 38 to 41 especially when you note that the unemployment rate droped faster, from 23% to 14% in 1935-1937.. well before the west started to rearm.

You have a problem with chronology. unemployment went down 8-9 points after the new deal policies were implemented in 1933-1936. That's pretty darned effective. Especially when you note unemployment went up every year the previous Hoovers administration. The fact it along with every other economic indicator ( which you don't like talking about) in Roosevelts first year in office is an amaizing accomplishment.

In 1936 FDR tried to balance the budget while the economy was weak. causing the economy to slip into a recession in the middle of his recovery.

Jesus Christ man, he created the WPA - of course that was going to drop the unemployment rate - it was the largest New Deal agency created. Look at all the agencies created and look at the date they were created...kinda explains why there was such a huge drop - JOBS!

* AAA - Agricultural Adjustment Act, 1933

* CAA - Civil Aeronautics Authority (now Federal Aviation Administration), 1933

* CCC - Civilian Conservation Corps, 1933

* CCC - Commodity Credit Corporation, 1933

* CWA - Civil Works Administration, 1933

* EBA - Emergency Banking Act, 1933

* FAP - Federal Art Project, part of WPA, 1935

* FCA - Farm Credit Administration, 1933

* FCC - Federal Communications Commission, 1934

* FDIC - Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, 1933

* FERA - Federal Emergency Relief Administration, 1933

* FHA - Federal Housing Administration, 1934

* FLA - Federal Loan Agency, 1939

* FMP - Federal Music Project, part of WPA 1935

* FSA - Farm Security Administration, 1935

* FSRC - Federal Surplus Relief Corporation, 1933

* FTP - Federal Theatre Project, part of WPA 1935

* FWA - Federal Works Agency, 1939

* FWP - Federal Writers' Project, part of WPA 1935

* FLSA - Fair labor standards act , 1938

* HOLC - Home Owners Loan Corporation, 1933

* NIRA - National Industrial Recovery Act, 1933

* NLRB - National Labor Relations Board, 1934

* NRA - National Recovery Administration, 1933

* PRRA - Puerto Rico Reconstruction Administration, 1933

* PWA - Public Works Administration, 1933

* RA - Resettlement Administration, 1935

* REA - Rural Electrification Administration (now Rural Utilities Service), 1935

* RFC - Reconstruction Finance Corporation (originally a Hoover agency), 1932

* SEC - Securities and Exchange Commission, 1934

* SSB - Social Security Board (now Social Security Administration), 1935

* TVA - Tennessee Valley Authority, 1933

* USHA - United States Housing Authority, 1937

* USMC - United States Maritime Commission, 1936

* WPA - Works Progress Administration, 1935

But how come after all these agencies he created, the unemployment rate started rising again? WWII saved it.

I think you are confusing what I am talking about - I am talking about the BUILDING process of ships, weapons, airplanes, tanks for the use of our Allies since we didnt get involved until today's date in 1941. To build and manufacture these items, you need labor. therefore the unemployment rate dropped since it put people to work. Once we started drafting people for our military, the unemployment rate dropped dramatically as well.

[nonniey]

When did the U.S. join in WWII certainly not in 39. Heck, even most of Europe didn't join in on WWII until after Poland which was about halfway through 1939.

The unemployment rates really didn't begin to drop until the United States started to ramp up for the war which initially began in the late 1930s with naval and air programs. I like FDR and think he was the 2d or 3rd greatest Presdient but it was WWII that made him so, not his economic policies.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Honestly though.. You know when we had completed our gearing up for WWII? 1943 or 1944....

Check out our airplane manufacturing numbers...

1939 -----------2,141

1940 -----------6,086

1941 ---------19,433

1942----------47,836

1943----------85,898

1944----------96,318

1945----------46,001

I work in the FMS business - do you know how long it takes to manufacture a plane? It takes about 3 weeks in this day and age, so I can only imagine it took longer back then because they dont have the technology and streamlined processes we have today.

From one of FDR's policies, he created the Maritime Commission to build more ships:

First Program—Fifty Ships a Year

As the first major act of the commission it adopted a long-range building program in the latter part of 1937 calling for the construction of fifty new ships a year for the next ten years, which immediately involved rehabilitation and expansion of the American shipbuilding indus-try-because ten yards in the country at that time possessed only forty-six shipways capable of such construction. Even at that, the program could not have been initiated if the new Merchant Marine Act had not contained a new plan for governmental assistance. The old system of construction loans had been abandoned in favor of differential subsidies, whereby the Govern-ment, after approving the building of the ship, agreed to pay, up to a certain percentage, the difference between the cost of building it in an American and a foreign shipyard. The fifty-ships-a-year program was intended to give the United States a competitively fast and efficient merchant fleet and replace by 1948, at the latest, the obsolete and over-age vessels then under the American flag. But the outbreak of war in Europe soon after the first of the new ships went into service, the withdrawal of many ships of foreign registry from the seas, and the destruction of so many ships of belligerents, immediately put a heavy burden on the American merchant marine. Even doubling the program could not provide tonnage adequate for Ameri-can needs.

Production Increased Rapidly

When Congress and the President determined to follow a policy of aid for the nations fighting defensively against the Axis nations, American shipyards obviously had to produce more merchant vessels in a shorter time than any nation had ever done in the history of mankind. The long-range program of fast C-type 17-knot vessels and tankers, already augmented, was doubled again when the President, early in 1941, directed the Commission to build 200 vessels of the famous Liberty Ship type, of a speed of 11 to 11 1/2 knots. The Maritime Commission was also being called upon, in accordance with the Merchant Marine Act of 1936, to provide an increasing number of auxiliary ships for the Navy. In January, one year later-and after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor a ship production program which had been set at 12,000,000 dead-weight tons for 1942 and 1943 was increased to 18,000,000; one month later, 6,000,000 deadweight tons were added, and in July, 1942, this was increased by another 2,890,000 tons. This meant that the shipyards, some not even built, were challenged to launch 8,000,000 deadweight tons of shipping in 1942 and 18,890,000 tons in 1943.

http://www.usmaritimecommission.de/

---------- Post added December-8th-2010 at 10:55 AM ----------

The unemployment rates really didn't begin to drop until the United States started to ramp up for the war which initially began in the late 1930s with naval and air programs. I like FDR and think he was the 2d or 3rd greatest Presdient but it was WWII that made him so, not his economic policies.

I like the guy too and I think he showed great leadership at that time to pull the US through such a difficult time all while being affected by polio - I agree with you completely.

[JMS]

Jesus Christ man, he created the WPA - of course that was going to drop the unemployment rate - it was the largest New Deal agency created. Look at all the agencies created and look at the date they were created...kinda explains why there was such a huge drop - JOBS!

AND GNP, GDP, durrable goods, reversed bank forclosures, imports and exports.. And every other economic indicator except one.. By the end of 1934; The end of FDR's first complet year in office...

But how come after all these agencies he created, the unemployment rate started rising again? WWII saved it.

Two entirely different things. Unemployment went up in 1936 because FDR cut spending tried to balance the budget while the economy was still weak

WWII didn't "save" anything. The depresssion was over and the economy was well on it's way to recovery before we ramped up for WWII. WWII spending and subsequently enlisting nearly 20 million soldiers did give unemployment a shot in the arm but it wasn't really related to the ending of the depression which occured years before.. 1933 to 1934.

I think you are confusing what I am talking about - I am talking about the BUILDING process of ships, weapons, airplanes, tanks for the use of our Allies since we didnt get involved until today's date in 1941. To build and manufacture these items, you need labor. therefore the unemployment rate dropped since it put people to work. Once we started drafting people for our military, the unemployment rate dropped dramatically as well.

We didn't manufacture weapons for Britian. We certianly didn't put our economy on a war footing, as FDR was secretly supplying arms to the UK....

We gave/sold/leased the UK existing American equipment. Equipment it then took our industry months even years to replace....As my chart clearly shows. War spending for the United States didn't occure in the 30's; which is where the majority of the US jobs were reclaimed. Our big war spending as shown by both our production numbers and our spending numbers occured in 1941 even 42.

---------- Post added December-8th-2010 at 11:05 AM ----------

The unemployment rates really didn't begin to drop until the United States started to ramp up for the war which initially began in the late 1930s with naval and air programs. I like FDR and think he was the 2d or 3rd greatest Presdient but it was WWII that made him so, not his economic policies.

Which is entirely false... Unemployment droped from 23% to 14% 1933-1936.. And from 18 - 10% from 1937-41...

American war spending only began to ramp up in 1940.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Which is entirely false... Unemployment droped from 23% to 14% 1933-1936.. And from 18 - 10% from 1937-41...

American war spending only began to ramp up in 1940.

Look, we can argue this all day until we are blue in the face - you arent going to change my mind, and I'm not going to be able to change your mind...while this has been fun and a major distraction, I have a 5 page paper due tomorrow that I must start writing

[Chicken Fried]

Had mostly to do with the time of day and with having done this argument quite a few times. If you look at the unemployment and economic trendlines, FDR's programs had an impact even before the war. It's pretty clear that his programs worked, were effective, and were appreciated.

This is my problem with the Republican revisionism. It misses a very, very basic, but important point. There's a reason laws or living. Things change. Social Security is/was a great program, but it was designed to work within a certain context and setting. That it's lasted as long as it has without much rejiggering is a great testament to those who built it, but it the lifespans, medical realities, and circumstances have changed. That doesn't make the law bad. It means that times are different today. A very basic truth... there are times when the liberal philosophy is superior and needed. We needed FDR to get us out of the Depression... the conservative and Republican constructs were making things worse and got us into the worst of messes via deregulation and cutting taxes... this is what mostly led to the Great Depression (in an over simplified way) At the same time, there is a time when the Conservative ideology is needed. After Lyndon Baines Johnson, we needed a Nixon. After Carter, we needed a Reagan.

FDR was a great President. That doesn't mean Conservatives are wrong or stupid. What FDR saved both the Union and the world. As a citizen of the U.S. you should take ownership and pride in that as well. But everything shouldn't go through one filter, and eventually even well intentioned ideologies go too far and create damage... and that's why you see the constant turning of the pendulum. We need both.

A major reason I don't need to defend FDR as hard is because his work stands for itself. What happened before him, what happened because of him, and what happened afterwards is the case for FDR. Other Presidents have been left surplusses or been given the U.S. in great shape and then through benign neglect or throw active works made things worse. FDR left us in such a state that for forty years we were preemininent. That speaks incredibly well of him and how well his works worked and about the legacies they had and have.

I see what you're saying. He did maneuver us through major crises, but I think, as some have pointed out in this thread, that his programs implemented back then are significantly responsible for the problems with both debt and federal powers that we are struggling with today.

[HighOnHendrix]

Look, we can argue this all day until we are blue in the face - you arent going to change my mind, and I'm not going to be able to change your mind...while this has been fun and a major distraction, I have a 5 page paper due tomorrow that I must start writing

Just mine this thread for material, it'll write itself! lol

[JMS]

I work in the FMS business - do you know how long it takes to manufacture a plane? It takes about 3 weeks in this day and age, so I can only imagine it took longer back then because they dont have the technology and streamlined processes we have today.

I guess I don't understand what your point is. In 1939 manufacturing an airplane was a craft. No mass production. IT was the purview of skilled craftsmen. FDR involved the captains of industry including Henry Ford the genuis of mass production to figure out how to do it more effectively...

It probable took them less than a day to manufacture an airplane in 1945 after they had tooled the assembly line...

Let's take the Liberty Ship Production because I could find them..

The first ships required about 230 days to build (Patrick Henry took 244 days), but the average eventually dropped to 42 days. The record was set by Robert E. Peary, which was launched 4 days and 15½ hours after the keel was laid,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Just mine this thread for material, it'll write itself! lol

That would be awesome, but my paper isnt about history - its about feminist ****

[HighOnHendrix]

Except then Britain ran out of money, and FDR continued supplying them weapons under the lend lease act. Which gave Britain weapons and only proposed charging them for them after the war if those weapons weren't capable of being returned to us.

FDR likenned this policy to allowing your neighbor to borrow your garden hose to put out his burning house. You don't haggle with him as his house is burning in the background; you say take the hose and we'll settle up latter.

Which is one of the best analogies of all time. Of course, you have to read the backstory on just how isolationist our country was at that time to really understand why he even needed to point out such an obvious thing.

[JMS]

Look, we can argue this all day until we are blue in the face - you arent going to change my mind, and I'm not going to be able to change your mind...while this has been fun and a major distraction, I have a 5 page paper due tomorrow that I must start writing

No Maus, No Maus Reberto?

As I said, Roosevelt ended the Great Depression in 1933-34 before the US ramped up for WWII. Based upon the definition of the economic term "depression" and the economic definition for precisely how one is concluded those facts are not debateable....

Which is why invariable when you confront one of these revisionist veiws of history it takes two tactis. The first is to broaden out what they claimed to try to muddle it up beyond quantifiable analysis. The second is to proclaim the futility of the discussion...

The reason I do it is because if the person making the counter points is honest the validity of incorrectness of his argument will seap in. Not immediately but eventually. A year or two down the road; They will remember what was said and have a better understanding of what FDR accomplished and meant to the country when next they visit this topic.

[GibbsFactor]

Taylor and Harrison being on this list is ridiculous. They might not have done much (Harrison had a very good excuse), but at least they didn't cause any harm.

I always have trouble deciding whether Andrew Jackson, FDR, or Lincoln was the worst president in United States' history, yet none of them ever seem to make these type of lists.

I know the arguments for Lincoln and FDR, but not for Andrew Jackson. Care to explain Andrew Jackson? Two war time presidents that should always get some slack, regardless if the "war" was their doing or not (Lincoln).

For what it's worth, I think Polk is the single greatest underrated President we've had.

[JMS]

Which is one of the best analogies of all time. Of course, you have to read the backstory on just how isolationist our country was at that time to really understand why he even needed to point out such an obvious thing.

Exactly correct...

I would encourage everybody interested to listen to Charles Lindberg's famous speach against involvemnt in WWII. The dude drew up a beutiful flawless logical and factual argument. I with 70 years of hind sight could not punch one hole in his arugment except of coarse to note that his conclusion was all wrong..

FDR did face an isolationist block, not just from Republicans, but also within his own party. FDR famously made the statement in the 1940 election that he would not send american boys to die in a foriegn war... Today we know he was doing everything he could to draw us into that war, even make it an American war..

---------- Post added December-8th-2010 at 11:39 AM ----------

I know the arguments for Lincoln and FDR, but not for Andrew Jackson. Care to explain Andrew Jackson? Two war time presidents that should always get some slack, regardless if the "war" was their doing or not (Lincoln).

For what it's worth, I think Polk is the single greatest underrated President we've had.

I think Jackson was a great general, and one of the most influencial presidents along with Jefferson, and maybe Reagan. But Jackson was not a great President. He ruled through fear and intimidation. He opennly ignored the constitution and supreme court. He had no time or patience for subtleties of leadership.

I don't think Jackson belongs on the worst list. He did some truely great things.. Like stopping south carolyna's first sucession attempt. Overall though bellow average presdient.. Great military mind. Scary dude....

I think he's the only US President to kill another man outside of a war. Jackson killed several men in duels.

---------- Post added December-8th-2010 at 11:45 AM ----------

(FDR's Policies) are significantly responsible for the problems with both debt and federal powers that we are struggling with today.

Like What?

Social Security? Bush's tax cuts if extended over the next 70 years will cost the US budget 3 times what social security deficite would cost over that same period.

Federal Reserve? It was created in 1913 by Wilson.

The Gold Standard? Nixon ended the Gold standard back in the 1970's.

As for Debt we had essentially paid off the national debt incured by Roosevelt for the new deal and WWII in the 1960's..

The true patriarch of modern US debt is clearly Ronald Reagan. Between Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr; these presidents account for 11 of the 13 Trillion dollar national debt accumulated before Obama

Maybe Strong Defense, although I would again reffer you back to Ronald Reagan... Maybe foreign engagement as opposed to isolatinism... But Isolationism isn't really attractive to many Americans on the left or right today.

[GibbsFactor]

I think Jackson was a great general, and one of the most influencial presidents along with Jefferson, and maybe Reagan. But Jackson was not a great President. He ruled through fear and intimidation. He opennly ignored the constitution and supreme court. He had no time or patience for subtleties of leadership.

I don't think Jackson belongs on the worst list. He did some truely great things.. Like stopping south carolyna's first sucession attempt. Overall though bellow average presdient.. Great military mind. Scary dude....

I think he's the only US President to kill another man outside of a war. Jackson killed several men in duels.

Eh... those things don't bother me so much. Considering the time he was President, still a remarkable job. Won't be on my top ten bad President list. We've had some great Presidents and some real corrupt dolts. I'll take a President with balls that takes care of money (another reason I have Clinton rated higher than most, not the balls part, we know he had balls, just the wrong kind and I don't care why the economy was what it was under Clinton... it was...)

[HighOnHendrix]

For what it's worth, I think Polk is the single greatest underrated President we've had.

He did a bang-up job on the Mexican-American war.

For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war..as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory. - Ulysses S. Grant

[China]

No Maus, No Maus Reberto?

What do mice have to do with it?

[GibbsFactor]

He did a bang-up job on the Mexican-American war.

He was also a slave holder. But as with Jefferson, did great things to expand this nation.

I mean, Texas & California? C'mon man. I don't care how it was done. Better the USA than some European country.

[HighOnHendrix]

He was also a slave holder. But as with Jefferson, did great things to expand this nation.

I mean, Texas & California? C'mon man. I don't care how it was done. Better the USA than some European country.

I have ethical problems with putting a beat-down on a weaker nation just so we can steal their territory. We did the same thing to Spain fifty years later. The ends don't justify the means in my book. I try to view historical events in the context of their own time, but I've always been puzzled how we could disparage the colonialism of Europe on one hand and fight wars of conquest on the other.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Useless without Bush.

Pun intended.