Henry Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser But it's not like 71 catches is what it use to be - now days even RBs & TEs are catching that much, some WRs are catching twice that, and non-probowlers break the 100 receptions barrier all the time. I agree that 71 catches in 02 is not the same as 71 catches in 82, but let's not overstate things here. One WR caught twice that in the history of the NFL. One. No other player has ever come within 20 catches of 143. Ever. And only five WRs broke 100 catches last year. And they were ALL pro-bowlers. Honestly, there has got to be a better way to discredit Gardners play than just making stuff up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBMGreatOne Posted August 25, 2003 Author Share Posted August 25, 2003 In addition to seeing all 8 of his TDs last year as cluctch catches and demonstrations of playmaking ability, I also have a hard time remembering a ton of balls that he dropped. Replays of some of his TDs are running through my head right now, like the one against Arizona in the opener where he had Duane Starks climbing on his back, or the WR screen he took for the score against Seattle, just as some examples. You don't have to rack up the YAC to be a playmaker. That's not Gardner's function in the offense. We needed a guy to do that and Coles is that guy now. In addition, he cemented the Philly 13-3 win in his rookie season with a clutch catch on something like 3rd and 17. Gardner delivers when his number is called more often than not. You say stats are the numerator and reality is the denominator, and I agree, but most of us are chiding Gardner for the drops he's making in preseason. Just what kind of denominator is that? Take a look at the guys who caught more balls for more yards and more TDs than Gardner last year (there really aren't many of them), and I'll bet you find that each and every one had a better QB situation than the fiasco we had here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Coles has made a big catch in each preseason game and then has slinked off to the bench. Whenever I see him out there he looks open He is probably the best WR the Skins have had since Gary Clark was in his prime. He has speed, good hands, the willingness to go over the midde and take hits. And he makes yardage AFTER the catch That's something we haven't seen much of around here lately. Gardner looks to be the perfect complement in terms of size and skills. What limits Gardner from ascending to the next level is his inconsistency. He just isn't a sure target as of yet. He drops balls that hit him square in the chest and then will catch a ball in traffic where he gets drilled. It has to get to the point where the more routine catches become automatic and Rod has not yet reached that level of consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 He just isn't a sure target as of yet. He drops balls that hit him square in the chest and then will catch a ball in traffic where he gets drilled. Actually, THAT sounds a lot like Gary Clark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsanity56 Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 i think some people seem to forget that gardener is a #2 possession rec. in this league.he's not the flashy #1 who makes highlight reel plays week after week.he's finally where he belongs going over the middle/underneath doing the dirty work.coles will get all the press,but gardner will be just as important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Originally posted by Art Jbooma, Chambers started the same number of games Gardner started last year and had 19 fewer catches. Gardner was a chief reserve in another game, but that's not a 19 catch difference. It's awfully hard to see how Chambers can be rated above Gardner at this point -- though he may have potential to be down the road. Thompson is a nice player, but there's no way he's remotely close to the player Coles has proven to be. Miami is starting a guy who legitimately might not have been our No. 4 receiver this year. There's no way this group should be on the list. Same with Green Bay, Cleveland and Buffalo. They don't have nearly the starting tandem in any of those cities. Dallas would be above them as well, at least if Bryant evolves. Chambers has moss potential and I did say if healthy that was the key there. Thompson is a WR that doesn't get a lot of credit. So far in the preseason he has looked very good. Greenbay has Driver and watch our for Ferguson, also Walker will have a breakthrough year. Buffalo has Moulds who is better than anyone we have, and Reed is going to be just like Price, watch. I mentioned Cleveland they don't have a great #1 but they do have 4 very quality WR's. I don't know of any team that has that many. I forgot about Indy, if Wayne can get close to Gardner's numbers then that is a solid 1-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Jbooma, So, if I understand you correctly, it pretty much doesn't matter who anyone else has because they just are better than Gardner whether they've ever been or not, does that about sum it up? Chambers didn't have more potential in the NFL coming into the draft. He was a far lower rated prospect and was drafted later. Had a mildly better rookie year and a far weaker second year. He's not ahead of Gardner now. Neither is Walker or Ferguson. Moulds is better than anyone we have, but, Reed isn't yet better than anyone we have. At least not Gardner. None of the teams you listed has a better starting pair of receivers than we do now. What could happen, I don't know. I do know what it is today though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsanity56 Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 watching the miami gm on the weekend they were saying chambers hasn't been the same player since the concussion he got mid season,& there starting to get worried.went on to say thompson was clearly the best rec. in camp so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsplayboy Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Im so glad that we picked up Coles this season I feel hes gonna have a great season and be a big help to gardner I wanna see what those C-BoYs got to hold the both of them newman and whooooooo:high: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins24 Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Originally posted by Henry I agree that 71 catches in 02 is not the same as 71 catches in 82, but let's not overstate things here. One WR caught twice that in the history of the NFL. One. No other player has ever come within 20 catches of 143. Ever. And only five WRs broke 100 catches last year. And they were ALL pro-bowlers. Honestly, there has got to be a better way to discredit Gardners play than just making stuff up. Plus, he was a second year player in his second offensive system with a new coach...and he had alot of instability at QB.... With all of that....71 catches ain't bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GURU Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 jbooma said: Chambers has moss potential As in Santana Moss-type potential? Look, Chambers is a talented athlete, but he's not a top receiving talent, yet, because he doesn't have natural receiving skills. Plus, he got absolutely tattooed over the middle in one game last season, and was never the same after that. You gotta be fearless over the middle to be a top receiver, in my book. And that's where Gardner will thrive this year. With more speed on the outside, Gardner will have more room to operate. Not only will he receive more one-on-one coverage, but he could become the primary target if teams start to zone up most of the time. I thought Rod was becoming very adept at finding the soft spots in zone coverage, last year. He made several big catches to keep drives alive. Gardner has been quiet this preseason, but I think he will be a major factor one the bullets become real. I wouldn't be surprised to see him break the double digit TD barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Originally posted by jbooma Green Bay Miami ? Cleaveland, (even though their 1 and 2 are similiar, but their 1-4 is the best in the NFL) Buffaloe? these teams aren't close to us in WR talent. GB, Driver, one hit wonder? the two backups... backups. what have they done? MIA, Chambers... has a good rookie year, now has the injury bug. what has he done for them lately? and we let DT go because he wouldn't have been one of our top-3 after getting jacobs... 'nuff said. and as for him having Moss potential. that's like saying Fiedler has Culpepper potential-- it ain't gonna happen. Chambers doesn't have that upside ; it's a pointless argument. CLE, they have a solid group, top to bottom, but until someone steps it up they couldn't match out 1-2. i like Quincy Morgan to prove himself as their best WR this year. BUF, Moulds is awesome. and Moulds is awesome. IND, Harrison is awesome. and Harrison is awesome. we definitely have better starting WR's than any of these teams listed above. no doubt in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Originally posted by Art Jbooma, So, if I understand you correctly, it pretty much doesn't matter who anyone else has because they just are better than Gardner whether they've ever been or not, does that about sum it up? Art, Someone asked who were some good WR tandems. I didn't say these were better than the skins, at least I don't think I did. I like Gardner very much and think Coles is the real deal. I just was listing some other possible tandems. I did base them on potential not actual performance. If that were the case then the list would be: Pittsburgh Oakland St Louis Denver or Washington Seattle NY Giants If McCaffrey can play like he used to then I give them the nod for now, if not Washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Forgot NO and Chicago (to bad the bears don't have a QB to use them though, hehehe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthcat Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 They will be good in the FnG, and with Partick honing his crosshairs, they should get better as the year progresses. I do so love the bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthcat Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 What would make the thing unstoppable would be a TE with hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldskool Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Originally posted by Earthcat What would make the thing unstoppable would be a TE with hands. If he gets the starting nod (crosses fingers) I have a feeling that Royals will surprise us this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Originally posted by rdogblue Yeah, so far he's looking nearly unstoppable.......and if he keeps this up in the regular season, I dont think anyone will say anything about his 13mil SB Yeah, wouldn't suprise me to see the Coles contract turn into a Reggie White deal. I still remember how Reggie White contract with GreenBay was unbelievable in any current context of it's time. Five years later it was a bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Originally posted by Henry I agree that 71 catches in 02 is not the same as 71 catches in 82, but let's not overstate things here. One WR caught twice that in the history of the NFL. One. No other player has ever come within 20 catches of 143. Ever. And only five WRs broke 100 catches last year. And they were ALL pro-bowlers. Honestly, there has got to be a better way to discredit Gardners play than just making stuff up. Actually the thread is about the league top tandems. And Coles/Gardners place in it. My point would be as long as anyone can catch twice as many passes as them, they can not among the those tandem. It's hardly an invalid point. *opening a beer* But it's a good observation. That's why I made it, also - that stats are incomplete in nature. I enjoy your input. I appreciate that your a thinker not number cruncher. As for the number crunching statmongers?? I believe my 143, trumps their 71x2 *lol* (live by the stat/die by the stat) Hines Ward (grossly undernoticed & underappreciated) has had over 100 catches and was not selected as a starter in the pro-bowl. He may have been a "reserve" though, if you count that. There have been others in other years. In any case it's hardly "making things up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagles_Legendz Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Originally posted by jbooma Green Bay Miami ? Cleaveland, (even though their 1 and 2 are similiar, but their 1-4 is the best in the NFL) Buffaloe? Ack! You can't compare any of those teams 1-2 receivers to SEA, WSH, OAK, STL, or Pittsburgh. Those teams are full of WR's that have the potential to become great, but at this point in their careers are not at the level of a Bruce/Holt combo. I think the best 1-2-3 combo in the league is in Pittsburgh. Oakland isn't far behind them. I'd put the Redskins at third in terms of best WR's 1-3 in the league. I still like Toomer more than Coles however as the best WR in the NFC East. If Ramsey is consistent this season, and the Redskins have a running game that is marginally effective (so teams won't sit in Cover 2's all day), your WR's could have a huge statistical year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato Sack Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 All I know is that when I first heard that we actually picked up Coles, I couldn't believe it. We made some fantastic moves during the off-season, but this was the one that got me excited. Yes, Gardner drops a lot of passes, but he DOES make the big plays when we need them. Then we grab Coles and put him on the opposite side of the field. I think we're going to create a lot of headaches with this tandem. And when (notice I said "when") Ramsey shakes the butterflies and starts connecting with these two guys on a consistent basis, who's to say how far we can go? We know what our defense can do. I think we've got something going there. And they simply get better every year. Now, if our O-Line can gel - they looked GREAT in the last game - and our WRs will stop dropping balls then we can go to the show. Well, maybe not the show this year, but I have no doubt we can make the playoffs. HTTR!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Originally posted by jbooma Chambers has moss potential .... Buffalo has Moulds who is better than anyone we have :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser Actually the thread is about the league top tandems. And Coles/Gardners place in it. My point would be as long as anyone can catch twice as many passes as them, they can not among the those tandem. It's hardly an invalid point. *opening a beer* But it's a good observation. That's why I made it, also - that stats are incomplete in nature. I enjoy your input. I appreciate that your a thinker not number cruncher. As for the number crunching statmongers?? I believe my 143, trumps their 71x2 *lol* (live by the stat/die by the stat) Right back at ya. Marvin had twice the catches of Gardner, but Coles had twice as many as Reggie Wayne, the Colts' #2 WR. As a TANDEM, I think we measure up just fine ... Statisically speaking. Hines Ward (grossly undernoticed & underappreciated) has had over 100 catches and was not selected as a starter in the pro-bowl. He may have been a "reserve" though, if you count that. There have been others in other years. In any case it's hardly "making things up". I count that. Everyone counts that. Ward went to the Pro-bowl in 2002. He played in it, and caught 2 passes for 45 yards. That makes him a pro-bowler. Ward has had two 1000 yard seasons and went to the pro bowl both times. (And in fact, one of those years he had fewer yards and far fewer TDs than Gardner did in 2002) How is he underappreciated? And in only 2 of the past 10 years has a WR broken 100 receptions and missed the pro-bowl. That hardly qualifies as "all the time." Over that same ten years the league averages a little over three 100 catch WRs a season. Gardner is a bum because he's not one of those three? Eh. No matter how you slice it, 71 catches and 8 TDs is still pretty darn good. Especially for a second year player. Especially for a #2 WR. You claim to be interested in the intangibles. Well, I didn't see the terrible dropsies you saw last season in Gardner. If you choose to ignore stats and talk pure opinion, I'll say I saw a guy who DID make the tough catches. I think you are remembering him as a rookie, because he just didn't drop tons of easy throws this past season. I'm just not sure what 'intangible' you're looking for in a #2 guy that Gardner doesn't possess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 When Henry goes into Kung-Fu mode it's a breathtaking thing to behold. Korny, learn how silence benefits the unintelligent. Learn quicky bubba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Originally posted by Henry Right back at ya. Marvin had twice the catches of Gardner, but Coles had twice as many as Reggie Wayne, the Colts' #2 WR. As a TANDEM, I think we measure up just fine ... Statisically speaking. *lol* cute you have a cheerleader. But Coles/Gardner were not a tandem. They were allowed to lead their teams seperately, while Harrison/Wayne had to divide the one teams catches. My 143/2 still stands. *cracking a beer* We agree 71 catches is not what it used to be. And RBs & TE catch that much now days. And that some WR catch twice that. If you want to quibble over "reserves" & "starters", go start another thread. In anycase my point stands without it. 71woopie. On the drops, surely you saw the drop in the 2nd preseason. It was one of 'those drops'. We could discuss the season as it goes by, and exchange opinions then with it fresh in our minds. Again I enjoy your comments. Discussion should be a calaboration not a contest. But if you're going to be someone else's champion. I'll give you my customary 3'replies-n-a'goodbye. Some people want to make this about Gardner (it's not, check the thread title). If they feel it has already been done?? why piss on our parade, go to another thread. That being said, I'm not your ignoring facts, anymore than your ignoring mine. It's a discussion of facts. If that makes you uncomfortable, then maybe we should end this discussion with civility. In that way, I'll decide what I'll do, but I will be taking my cue from you. The choice is yours. Doub Williams- how about you tomarrow. On certain threads, to prevent 'gangbanging', and to prevent anyone from dominating the discussion, I only reply once a day. I'll see you tomarrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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