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So just how good is this Coles Gardner tandem?


CBMGreatOne

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I had initially been deliberating within my own mind about which of our starting receivers would put up the better numbers this year (for fantasy purposes), and I determined that they have a solid chance to be something close to some of the tandems we've seen in recent years like Carter/Moss, Ward/Burress, Moulds/Price, and less recently Smith/McCaffrey.

It may sound like a little bit of a pipe dream, but if we look not too far back within our own franchise we remember that Westbrook and Connell each went for over 1100 yards and had 6+ TDs in 99 (Throw in Stephen Davis and Brad Johnson and the numbers our skill position players put up that year were pretty unbelieveable). I'd like to think that Coles and Gardner are better than those two clowns though. With only marginal improvements in each players numbers we could be looking at the next BIG WR tandem.

Just a thought.

Edit: and about a week ago when we were talking about position by position breakdowns between the Boys and the Skins almost every Cowboy fan was giving Dallas the edge on wideouts, doesn't make much sense to me.

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Coles looks unlimited in potential, although in very limited play. I shutter to think he may be worth every penny, but that can only be earned in season.

Gardner drops way more than he should, to be put in that crowd. And not just the # of drops but the quality of the drops. He drops stuff right in his face. He's got to stop that before I believe.

Ultimately Coles is new, Gardner has been so so. I refuse to confuse potential with reality. Until I see it in season, I'm only caustiously optimistic.

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Originally posted by Kornheiser

Gardner drops way more than he should, to be put in that crowd. And not just the # of drops but the quality of the drops. He drops stuff right in his face. He's got to stop that before I believe.

I think going against #2 CB's this year and not having a double team on him all the time will help him this year.

I mean the guy caught 71 passes last year, imagine how many more he hasthe potential to catch this year?

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Coles looks unlimited in potential, although in very limited play. I shutter to think he may be worth every penny, but that can only be earned in season.

Yeah, so far he's looking nearly unstoppable.......and if he keeps this up in the regular season, I dont think anyone will say anything about his 13mil SB

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I can't say as I bought the statements that Gardner had developed as much as he could and was forever a No. 2 receiver, but, even if that is true, given just how dominating Coles appears to be, Gardner is going to prey on lesser players this year. Given his maturation as a player from his rookie year where he was prone to dropping passes to last year where he dropped very few and made a high number of the difficult catch, Gardner is poised to benefit from Coles immensely.

Coles, though, appears to be in a class of his own. You just don't see a guy running as open as often as he does against first teamers like this. Teams are going to have to roll coverage to him if he is even close to this impressive in the regular season and that will open up the whole field for us. I don't think I'd put Coles and Gardner up there yet with the game's best tandems because I think Ramsey may struggle a bit too much to make that happen at times. But, we are in line to have a pretty special group in time.

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Originally posted by Kornheiser

Gardner drops way more than he should, to be put in that crowd. And not just the # of drops but the quality of the drops. He drops stuff right in his face. He's got to stop that before I believe.

Someone help me out here, but hasn't there been stats provided on this message board disproving this whole Gardner dropping too many passes wives tale?

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Yeah, I remember somebody posted a long rundown of drops per chance or something of that nature, and Gardner was shown to have dropped fewer passes per opportunity than some surprising other players, and was shown to have been among the stickiest fingered players in the league.

In any case, where I was going with this is that if Westbrook and Connell put up the numbers they did, just think of adding two TDs and 100 more yards to each line and you have a top tandem. Naturally it is yet to be proven that the overall offense will run as smoothly as that year's #2 overall unit, but from the standpoint, that I just believe that Coles and Gardner are much better players than those jokers, I could see it happening. One stat I had conveniently left out was number of catches, but that only really applies to Westbrook and Connell (they tied for the league high in YPC). Gardner and Coles will get at least 70-80 catches each IMO.

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Originally posted by ummagumma

Someone help me out here, but hasn't there been stats provided on this message board disproving this whole Gardner dropping too many passes wives tale?

Why, yes there have. Not everyone, though, is as in touch with reality and facts when offering an opinion as others. :).

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coles is starting to look special now isn't he!!!he'll burn alot of DB's in single man coverage.it'll really benefit our team/players if opponents are rolling the coverage towards coles.open up the field that much more in single coverage..

SOS must be lickin his lips with the possibilities.

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Originally posted by ummagumma

Someone help me out here, but hasn't there been stats provided on this message board disproving this whole Gardner dropping too many passes wives tale?

Edit: Well. There was this just a tad long thread, Gardner a Redskin , that did do just that. Since then the site provided doesn't track drops. Not that that would make much difference anyway. :cool:

:cheers:

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Originally posted by Oldskool

I think going against #2 CB's this year and not having a double team on him all the time will help him this year.

I mean the guy caught 71 passes last year, imagine how many more he hasthe potential to catch this year?

Gardner may very well. And certainly if he does not there can be no excuses. Especially if Coles is fulfilling his potential.

I wonder more about Gardner's quality of play, than pure numbers. I know that's seems terrible intagible. But it's not like 71 catches is what it use to be - now days even RBs & TEs are catching that much, some WRs are catching twice that, and non-probowlers break the 100 receptions barrier all the time.

Ummaguma

In quality of play, I think the Redskins passing game was worse than it appears numberwise. We were comming from behind a lot last year, including the majority of games which ended that way. When the opponent is running out the clock, a lot of passing stats accumulate (as well as a lot of easy non-drops, ummagumma). When the games was on the line, that's when a lot of drops accumulated.

Also I would like to see some playmaking ability from Gardner. He doesn't make the hard/clutch catch (now, that would make a nice stat). So much so, I wonder if he could even be effective in the playoffs. Westbrook, despite great animosity toward him, showed quite a lot of playmaking ability, though he was unable to be a consistant contributer.

I know it sound terribly human (and that is even shunned in some circles) to consider circumstance on the same level as numbers. Dare anyone question numbers?? If we were count the circumstances under which the stats were collected, I believe the numbers would bear me out. Since I think of you all, more as good drinking buddies throwing out views & thoughts for a human feedback; more than University Professor's to which I am to dispell any possibility that my thesis can even be questioned. I say ... yeah *burp* I question those numbers ... and how about another beer. But pleasure precludes me from turning beer-talk into statmongering.

One professor who warned against statmongering said, "Stats by nature are not complete. The stat is the numerator, reality is the denominator. Make sure you see the whole picture."

I got to go bed. I look forward to reading your reply all. Please make it something wonderfully interesting & not "71", "that's the answer", "...to everything".

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Originally posted by AJWatson3

i think that our starting WR's are in the top-five of the nfl...

you got:

Burres, Ward-- PIT

Robinson, Jackson-- SEA

Holt, Bruce-- STL

who else...?

maybe Horn, Stallworth-- NO; or Rice/Brown, Porter-- OAK...?

Green Bay

Miami ?

Cleaveland, (even though their 1 and 2 are similiar, but their 1-4 is the best in the NFL)

Buffaloe?

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Jbooma,

No he hasn't. He dropped one though. In the opener, Johnson, Flemister and Canidate dropped balls. No one else did. In the second game, Gardner dropped one, and one other easy ball was dropped. In the third game there were no drops among the starting players.

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Originally posted by AJWatson3

i think that our starting WR's are in the top-five of the nfl...

you got:

Burres, Ward-- PIT

Robinson, Jackson-- SEA

Holt, Bruce-- STL

who else...?

maybe Horn, Stallworth-- NO; or Rice/Brown, Porter-- OAK...?

Hey, come on now don't forget that the cowboys fans rated their WR's as better than ours. :rotflmao:

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Originally posted by Art

Jbooma,

No he hasn't. He dropped one though. In the opener, Johnson, Flemister and Canidate dropped balls. No one else did. In the second game, Gardner dropped one, and one other easy ball was dropped. In the third game there were no drops among the starting players.

I thought he dropped 2 in the Bmore game and one each in the others. I consider a drop if it touches both hands. I might be off a little. However that one that hit him in the chest was pathetic :)

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Jbooma,

Part of the problem Gardner seems to have with people talking about his drops is people often make up how many drops he actually has and then blames Gardner for those drops. Again, in the first game he was in for six Ramsey throws. We know all about those throws.

One, the first one, was a bad throw to Coles under pressure. Two of the next five were completed. Three of those hit receivers square in the hands. Those receivers were Canidate, Johnson and Flemister.

In the Baltimore game there were no drops among the starting group and Ramsey was 8 of 13. Gardner did drop a ball that was right to him in the New England game though. No matter the pathetic nature of dropping a pass, Gardner is too frequently held accountable for the imagination of people who inexplicably don't seem to like him or appreciate just how good 71 catches for over 1,000 yards is for a second-year player. Especially one in a hold and cold passing offense like ours was.

So, Korny here, realizing how silly it is to talk about Gardner's drops last year that really didn't exist, has altered his concept to talking about how unimportant the actual facts are when it comes to his drops, and pointing out that 71 catches for 1,000 yards is nothing really. Nothing at all. Perhaps that's right. Especially for a vet of many years. It's not right though for a second-year player.

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kornheiser said,

<<the opponent is running out the clock, a lot of passing stats accumulate (as well as a lot of easy non-drops, ummagumma).>>

kornheiser, but unless we're greater than 7 pointer per 2 minutes behind, I would think that every catch counts. In fact, those are pressure catches too.

Also, if we have the ball, they are not running the clock out...

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Originally posted by jbooma

Green Bay

Miami ?

Cleaveland, (even though their 1 and 2 are similiar, but their 1-4 is the best in the NFL)

Buffaloe?

Miami?????????????????????

As we well know, their starting #2 WR could not crack our top 4 (or possibly 5) this year, though I still like him.

The receiving corp that I think is really shaping up is, shockingly, the Houston Texans. With Johnson and Bradford split out and Gaffney in the slot, they have a great trio of starting Wideouts. Now if they only had a line to block for them . . .

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Jbooma,

Chambers started the same number of games Gardner started last year and had 19 fewer catches. Gardner was a chief reserve in another game, but that's not a 19 catch difference. It's awfully hard to see how Chambers can be rated above Gardner at this point -- though he may have potential to be down the road. Thompson is a nice player, but there's no way he's remotely close to the player Coles has proven to be.

Miami is starting a guy who legitimately might not have been our No. 4 receiver this year. There's no way this group should be on the list. Same with Green Bay, Cleveland and Buffalo. They don't have nearly the starting tandem in any of those cities.

Dallas would be above them as well, at least if Bryant evolves.

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