HZ: Suspected Mossad agent nabbed in Warsaw in connection with Dubai hit

[JMS]

I don't know if you guys remember this.... A high ranking Hamas leader was killed in Dubai a few months back. Everybody suspected Israel was behind it, even Israeli's, but the Israeli government is silent. Then it turns out the Dubai police investigating the killing began to identify about 10-12 people who they believed were involved who all disappeared after the killing. The people had Canadian, German, French, and Irish passports. Some were duel citizens of Israel. Authorities believe Israel copied these peoples passports and distributed them to the Mossad. The EU and Canada were all pissed about it.

Looks like Poland caught somebody who was alledgedly involved. Germany wants him extradited because evidently he stole/copied a German Passport, a crime in Germany.. When Israel heard Poland had the man, Israel also requested custody of him. They want to try him in Israel, because he's an Israeli citizen.. Now Poland is caught in the middle.

Ireland has concluded their investigation.... Their expelling an Israeli Diplomat over the incident.

Looks like a big mess with everybody yelling at each other....

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/suspected-mossad-agent-nabbed-in-warsaw-in-connection-with-dubai-hit-1.295770#article_comments

Suspected Mossad agent nabbed in Warsaw in connection with Dubai hit

Berlin seeking extradition of Israeli who used German passport, but Poland says no decision has been made and feels trapped between two allies

By Barak Ravid, Ofer Aderet and Yossi Melman

An Israeli citizen was arrested in Warsaw last week on suspicion of involvement in the assassination in January of a senior Hamas figure in Dubai. The man, whose Israeli passport identifies him as Uri Brodsky, was arrested when he landed at Warsaw's airport after Germany issued an international warrant for his arrest.

The arrest has raised deep concerns in Israel of a deepening diplomatic imbroglio over the hit on the Hamas leader, Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

Brodsky is suspected of working for the Mossad in Germany and of giving logistical support to the killers of Mabhouh, who was using a German passport. Word of Brodsky's arrest broke yesterday on the Web site of the German weekly Der Spiegel, which is expected to publish more details this week.

Here is a more up to date article..

Israel Protests Extradition of Suspected Mossad Agent

Israel is urging Poland not to extradite to Germany a suspected Mossad agent arrested at Warsaw airport on June 4 on suspicion of being involved in the

http://abcnews.go.com/International/Broadcast/israel-extradition-mossad-agent-germany/story?id=10916790

Ireland expels Israeli (Diplomat) over forged passports

DUBLIN — Ireland announced Tuesday it's expelling an Israeli diplomat in punishment for the alleged Mossad use of forged Irish passports to assassinate a top Hamas official in Dubai.

Israel has refused to confirm or deny its agents' involvement in the January slaying of Hamas official Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, who Dubai officials have said was killed in his hotel room by people posing as holidaymakers in the oil-rich Arab emirate.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jHjktaWTyp2FcHmZYdpGpD8GoIqgD9GBMQ2O0

[zoony]

This is straight out of a George Jonas novel. (I love the documents training section of that book, and how their instructors were able to spot the page they carefully edited within a second)

[JMS]

This is straight out of a George Jonas novel. (I love the documents training section of that book, and how their instructors were able to spot the page they carefully edited within a second)

Could you explain that? I don't follow you.

[zoony]

Could you explain that? I don't follow you.

Part of the Mossad documents training. They spent weeks working with documents experts learning how to manipulate passports.

For their 'final exam' they were given a passport and their instructor told them to make changes to just one page of the document. If the instructor couldn't tell, they passed. So each agent spent hours meticulously making the most minor of changes to a document.

They brought them to the instructor for inspection, and the instructor was able to spot every single change from every single student within a few seconds. He simply held up the passport and it automatically opened to the page they'd been working on for the past several hours because of the pressure on the document's spine. That hadn't occured to any of the students

The pistol training was even more interesting.

Of course, it's Americans doing the training. Surprise surprise.

[Corcaigh]

Expelling the diplomat sends the wrong message. As a representative of the Israeli government he should be charged with fraud and being an accessory to murder.

If you or I were involved in passport forgery that led to murder we would face 25 years in prison.

[zoony]

Expelling the diplomat sends the wrong message. As a representative of the Israeli government he should be charged with fraud and being an accessory to murder.

If you or I were involved in passport forgery that led to murder we would face 25 years in prison.

Well, they might need the favor returned someday. wink wink

(I do agree with you though)

[JMS]

Expelling the diplomat sends the wrong message. As a representative of the Israeli government he should be charged with fraud and being an accessory to murder.

If you or I were involved in passport forgery that led to murder we would face 25 years in prison.

No no... It wasn't an Israeli diplomat involved.... The Israeli being deported in Ireland had nothing to do with this operation. Ireland is just pissed at Israel for using Irish passports, potentially placing her citizens in jeprody in the future.... They are demonstrating their displeasure by expelling an unrelated Israeli diplomat..... The Soviet Union and the United States used to do this all the time....

Martin (Irish Foreign Minster) said the expelled Israeli official, who was not identified by name or position, was not found guilty himself of forging or stealing Irish passports, but was "a victim of the actions of the state they represent."

The guy Poland caught is actually supposed to have been involved. After reading the article, it doesn't seem like Israel's governemnt is trying to pressure the Poles. It sounds like some Knesset members or government ministers are. I haven't heard Netanyahu weight into this yet.

[Corcaigh]

No no... It wasn't an Israeli diplomat involved.... The Israeli being deported in Ireland had nothing to do with this operation. Ireland is just pissed at Israel for using Irish passports, potentially placing her citizens in jeprody in the future.... They are demonstrating their displeasure by expelling an unrelated Israeli diplomat.....

I understand the diplomat may or may not have had any involvement. But he's a representative of the body that did. So charge the diplomat until they hand over the murderer who committed the crime under a false Irish passport for prosecution.

[zoony]

That's gotta be the ultimate sign of international disrespect. Using a country's passport to go do dirty work in another country.

The poor Irish

[JMS]

I understand the diplomat may or may not have had any involvement. But he's a representative of the body that did. So charge the diplomat until they hand over the murderer who committed the crime under a false Irish passport for prosecution.

The Irish foreign minister said the Israeli diplomat was not personally guilty or implicated in this affair......

I see what you are saying... But that wouldn't work very well. If you start arresting innocent diplomats and charging them with murder, what's to stop Israel from charging your diplomats? Besides I'm pretty sure it's a voilation of international law.... Diplomats have immunity from prosecution for precisely this reason.

Expelling a diplomat is considered a pretty harsh diplomatic response...

[JMS]

That's gotta be the ultimate sign of international disrespect. Using a country's passport to go do dirty work in another country.

The poor Irish

Poor Irish, Canadians, French, British, and Germans you mean. All their passports were forged/stolen for this operation..

[dockeryfan]

This is straight out of a George Jonas novel. (I love the documents training section of that book, and how their instructors were able to spot the page they carefully edited within a second)

I was going to say Daniel Silva. His fictional novels follow a character named Gabriel Allon who works for the office of intelligence for Israel and whose skill set includes intelligence collection, special investigations, kidnap and capture, interrogation, assassination, etc. You get to follow the operations through from start to finish, and all the hiccups in between.

Actually the novels are very good.

[nonniey]

Expelling the diplomat sends the wrong message. As a representative of the Israeli government he should be charged with fraud and being an accessory to murder.

If you or I were involved in passport forgery that led to murder we would face 25 years in prison.

Ever hear of Diplomatic immunity? Heck the Diplomat himself could murder someone in Ireland and the Irish couldn't prosecute.

[JMS]

Morals of the story, If you are a leader in a terrorist organization responsible for killing Israeli's; don't check into a five star hotel and think you are safe; just because the country in question doesn't allow Israeli passport holders to visit.

If you are an Israeli friendly country who have at times been critical of Israeli policies, don't think Israel won't leverage your documents to strike at her enemies.

[youngestson]

When Israel heard Poland had the man, Israel also requested custody of him. They want to try him in Israel, because he's an Israeli citizen.. Now Poland is caught in the middle.

I don't see that happening as Israel never extradites its citizens regardless of the crimes they may have commited in other nations.

[dockeryfan]

If you are an Israeli friendly country who have at times been critical of Israeli policies, don't think Israel won't leverage your documents to strike at her enemies.

You do realize the CIA does the same thing with documents, don't you? Every country with an intelligence service does this. It's the operations that are an issue. I think people have an opinion that Israel will strike out in ethically grey areas, simply for revenge. Not sure if that's the case, but Israel's tactics along their borders don't help much.

[Burgold]

Morals of the story, If you are a leader in a terrorist organization responsible for killing Israeli's; don't check into a five star hotel and think you are safe; just because the country in question doesn't allow Israeli passport holders to visit.

If you are an Israeli friendly country who have at times been critical of Israeli policies, don't think Israel won't leverage your documents to strike at her enemies.

See, now I can't tell if you are pro or con the assassination. Personally, I think that the suspect should be tried in the country where the crime was committed. It also doesn't surprise me in the least if a spy or assassin acts sneaky or even dishonest.

[JMS]

You do realize the CIA does the same thing with documents, don't you? Every country with an intelligence service does this. It's the operations that are an issue. I think people have an opinion that Israel will strike out in ethically grey areas, simply for revenge. Not sure if that's the case, but Israel's tactics along their borders don't help much.

One I think you are totally wrong that the CIA uses passports from friendly governments to move into countries to kill folks.... You would have to provide a link to convince me of that claim. Which of coarse you can't do, which kind of supports my case....

It's kind of a F.U. move to use another country's passport to murder your enemy. The reason being in the future it places the citizens of that other country under suspicion needlessly. That's why Canada, France, Ireland, Britian, and Germany are pissed. Not just because Israel murdered somebody external to their boarders... Which I'm sure many also find offensive.

[JMS]

See, now I can't tell if you are pro or con the assassination. Personally, I think that the suspect should be tried in the country where the crime was committed. It also doesn't surprise me in the least if a spy or assassin acts sneaky or even dishonest.

I am against assassinations, or killing on either side of these troubles... Having said that.

(1) It's pretty hard to work up any tears for a known terrorist getting murdered by folks whos citizens he's killed. This guy wasn't a civilian and his killing didn't have any collateral damage. It was done semi pubilically, and sent a message; but it wasn't done irresponsible. If Israel used and American hellfire missle through the window to get the guy and half a dozen others were killed I would be singing a different tune. Thankfully that's not what they did.

(2) I agree with you I would much rather see Israel or "whomever" did this throw a net on the guy and put him on trial. I would preffer we did that too. I'm not sure if that's practical for tiny Israel which doesn't enjoy the best ties with Dubai anyway.

(3) I agree with Canada and the EU countries that it is entirely unaccpetable that Israel used their passports in order to purpetrate this killing, if that's what happenned. It's a huge mistake on Israel's behalf to leverage friendly governments documents in a way which potentially puts their citizens at risk.

It's doublely dumb to do so when Israel has so many other countries to choose from which she doesn't share a positive mutual relationship with.... Lebonon, Syria, Libyia, Iraq, Yemen, Saudi etc.. I would think those guys would be more fair game..... But Ireland, Canada, France, UK, and Germany? I don't get that.

[JMS]

I don't see that happening as Israel never extradites its citizens regardless of the crimes they may have commited in other nations.

Israel doesn't extradite even non citizens if they are jewish and request assylum. I remember Daniel Sheinbein in 1999, an American citizen who had never been to Israel before. He decapitated another Maryland kid in Montgomery County in the late 1990's, was arrested by police, made bail, and fled to Israel.

Israel wouldn't extradite the kid back to the United States. They gave him citizenship...

This is an entirely different situation though. This has to do with who can bring the most political pressure to bear on Poland. I haven't heard Israel's foreign minister or Prime minster weighing in on this... I have only heard of knesset members and lower government ministers... One would think Germany, the largest economy in Europe would weight more than Israel on this; if Germany really wants the guy..... Unless of coarse Israel has someone else do the asking of Poland, somebody more important to Poland than even Germany...

Germany likely wants to show their displeasure with Israel over this fiasco. But Germany doesn't want to hold a Mossad agent in jail for a decade. Look for them to work something out, eventually after the press has died down.

[dockeryfan]

One I think you are totally wrong that the CIA uses passports from friendly governments to move into countries to kill folks....

First, I never said the CIA uses false passports for assassinations, because I don't know that, but it's certainly plausible.

Second, you want proof that the CIA does anything? You're going to question the source regardless.

How about allegations of CIA operatives using forged British passports. Would that satisfy you that this is actually commonplace?

http://intelligencenews.wordpress.com/2010/05/17/01-464/

[JMS]

First, I never said the CIA uses false passports for assassinations, because I don't know that, but it's certainly plausible.

Pardon me, I thought that's exactly what you said..

You do realize the CIA does the same thing with documents, don't you?

How about allegations of CIA operatives using forged British passports. Would that satisfy you that this is actually commonplace?

http://intelligencenews.wordpress.com/2010/05/17/01-464/

Never heard of the source, it's kidnapping not assassination. It's an allogation which just surfaced a decade after the fact and a month after the Israeli strike...

Nope that doesn't "satisfy" me.

I think you would be hard pressed to show any assassinations by the CIA, much less one which used a forged friendly governmentes passport. Congress has so much oversight at CIA today most of that clandestined work is handled by the DIA or NSA which are entirely under the auspices of the executive branch.

you want proof that the CIA does anything? You're going to question the source regardless.

Actually their are a number of very good sources about CIA activities over the years..... "Legacy of Ashes" is a fine book for example which was critically aclaimed by sources inside and outside the agency.... Bob Woodward also wrote a fine book about the agency while William Cassey was director. The Washington Post, NY Times, and LA Times have all done award winning expose's over the last few decades.

[dockeryfan]

Pardon me, I thought that's exactly what you said..

You would be incorrect.

You actually even quoted me as saying that is what the CIA does with ITS DOCUMENTS. Falsified passports of many nations, friendly included.

And I was 100% correct in that you would discredit the source. Never mind that the British authorities are investigating the matter. You think they are doing that on a lark?

If you want to believe the CIA does not use falsified passports be my guest. But tell me, how ever do you think these operatives travel across borders? With US passports only? Why would they do something so limited? They would not.

[JMS]

You would be incorrect.

You actually even quoted me as saying that is what the CIA does with ITS DOCUMENTS. Falsified passports of many nations, friendly included.

I guess you have me confused.... You claim the CIA forges documents, but not passports, and then privide a link which claims they forge passports... but say I'm wrong for pointing out you said they forged passports?

Gotcha.

And I was 100% correct in that you would discredit the source. Never mind that the British authorities are investigating the matter. You think they are doing that on a lark?

Yes that proves you have incredible insight into the workings of my mind... Or realized your link was pretty shakey even before you published it.

I will leave it up to you to determine the more likely event.

If you want to believe the CIA does not use falsified passports be my guest. But tell me, how ever do you think these operatives travel across borders? With US passports only? Why would they do something so limited? They would not.

Falsified passports "from friendly countries for assasinations" was my objection.... I don't think we stick fingers into the eyes of our allies and friends to carry out questionable controversial activities. That's my point.

[dockeryfan]

I guess you have me confused.... You claim the CIA forges documents, but not passports, and then privide a like which claims they forge passports... but say I'm wrong for pointing out you said they forged passports?

Gotcha.

Yes that proves you have incredible insight into the workings of my mind... Or realized your link was pretty shakey even before you published it.

I will leave it up to you to determine the more likely event.

Falsified passports "from friendly countries" was my objection.... I don't think we stick fingers into the eyes of our allies and friends to carry out questionable controversial activities. That's my point.

Man you are all over the place.

First you claim I was saying the CIA uses forged passports for assassinations.

Now you are saying Documents are not the same as passports. Some kind of backtrack.

Even if the government is investigating a claim of CIA forged British passports, you don't think it's possible.

I'm not going to get into some multi quote nonsense and strawman agruments with you over this. People saw what you said and if you don't think the CIA uses forged passports, you feel free to believe what you want. But you still have no concept of how these operatives would cross borders. Furthermore, if you think the CIA would make it easy of foreign intelligence services by only having their operatives use only US passports you are just being foolish.