WP: Santana Moss received HGH from accused Canadian doctor, sources say

[WARPATH85]

What do you do in the military when someone breaks a rule? Let him slide, because "nobody's perfect?"

HGH use is explicitly prohibited by the NFL, and the punishment for violating that rule is established: 4-game suspension. Additionally, it's a violation of federal law.

If this was a Cowboy we were talking about, everybody would be throwing the book at him.

I SEE YOU DODGED THE QUESTIONS!..ANSWER NOW!

We atleast investigate beofre we punish or jump to conclussions!

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!

[NewCliche21]

I SEE YOU DODGED THE QUESTIONS!..ANSWER NOW!

We atleast investigate beofre we punish or jump to conclussions!

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!

And to think that people are mocking Moss's ability to communicate in this thread. :doh:

The violation in itself is to conduct oneself in a way that is detrimental to the team or the league. Going to see the doctor and stirring all of this up is the violation of that rule. There is no investigation needed to make a suspension.

Stop making excuses for people just because you like them.

[WARPATH85]

1) Thank you for your service, and I mean that in all sincerity. My father was in Vietnam and my grandfather in WWII. Army and what would have been Marines.

2) The popularity of committing an infraction in no way validates any of those infractions. What do you tell to children when they play games? Don't cheat. If five-year-olds are supposed to follow that rule, then why can't people six times their age follow it in order to make MILLIONS of dollars?

Thank you !. I'm not suggesting , or approve of cheating. If you read some of these post, people are already trying to throw the guy to the wolves before anything can be investigated. Throw him off the team. Get real now! Do the investigation, and then enforce the justice.

[posse87]

Look....PED's are banned by the NFL. Local injections to facilitate healing does not enhance performance, therefore, in that situation it should not be considered a PED, but rather a theraputic drug. If it is banned as a PED and a theraputic drug then the case is black and white, but if it is banned only as a PED then one can make the argument that local soft tissue injections are theraputic and not to enhance performance. There has been no report on how he allegedly used it in the past and how he was intending to use it now. I suspect he was using it to help his recurrent hamstring strains heal faster to get back out on the field faster and help the team win. If he was injecting it intravenously or taking it orally then he clearly was using it as a PED and in violation of the rules. I don't know the exact language of the NFL rules and policies, but how he used it and why are clearly relevant to the situation.

[Fletch_Lives59]

Moss should ask for his money back if he did take PED's...

[Popeman38]

And to think that people are mocking Moss's ability to communicate in this thread. :doh:

The violation in itself is to conduct oneself in a way that is detrimental to the team or the league. Going to see the doctor and stirring all of this up is the violation of that rule. There is no investigation needed to make a suspension.

Stop making excuses for people just because you like them.

WRONG. PEDs are specifically covered in the CBA. Meaning, there has to be legal proof that a player violated that portion of the CBA. Commish can not simply suspend Moss under the player conduct section when it pertains to PEDs. There is a process, and it must be followed. See the Williams' in Minny, they popped positive on a test and they still haven't served the suspensions yet. If the Commish could simply suspend them for "conduct detrimental", don't you think the league would have dropped the PED process and just gone that route? There is a process, and if the Commish suspends Moss for his "conduct detrimental" there will most likely be an immediate appeal to the courts, the suspension will be dismissed, and Moss will not miss a single game. Of course, all this hinges on Moss' ability to deny and no factual evidence that he actually used HGH (transactions, admissions, video....).

[pvkeeper19]

I SEE YOU DODGED THE QUESTIONS!..ANSWER NOW!

We atleast investigate beofre we punish or jump to conclussions!

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!

No, I've never stolen anything from my workplace or lied to my boss. I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. This is an issue of taking deliberate action that is prohibited by federal law and my NFL rules. Anyone who does that needs to get punished. It's that simple.

Also, I've been clear that IF Moss did what the reports say he did, he should be punished, and I wouldn't want him on the Redskins anymore. If he didn't do it, then leave the guy alone. But it looks, at this point, like he did it. I would recommend the same punishment regardless of what player or team we're talking about. I don't want cheaters on my team, and I don't think they have a place in the NFL. Yes, I know there are probably a lot of guys out there cheating. The best we can do is get rid of the ones we find.

[pvkeeper19]

WRONG. PEDs are specifically covered in the CBA. Meaning, there has to be legal proof that a player violated that portion of the CBA. Commish can not simply suspend Moss under the player conduct section when it pertains to PEDs. There is a process, and it must be followed. See the Williams' in Minny, they popped positive on a test and they still haven't served the suspensions yet. If the Commish could simply suspend them for "conduct detrimental", don't you think the league would have dropped the PED process and just gone that route? There is a process, and if the Commish suspends Moss for his "conduct detrimental" there will most likely be an immediate appeal to the courts, the suspension will be dismissed, and Moss will not miss a single game. Of course, all this hinges on Moss' ability to deny and no factual evidence that he actually used HGH (transactions, admissions, video....).

The Williams' suspension has not been served because it was (and still is) under appeal. Most recently, the suspensions have been upheld in Minnesota district court, but are still on hold due to the continuing appeals process.

So, yes, Roger Goodell can suspend players for taking banned substances.

[Popeman38]

The Williams' suspension has not been served because it was (and still is) under appeal. Most recently, the suspensions have been upheld in Minnesota district court, but are still on hold due to the continuing appeals process.

So, yes, Roger Goodell can suspend players for taking banned substances.

Agreed. The Williams' FAILED a drug test. Moss has not failed a test, and is being presumed guilty based on speculation. Without proof, the Commish can not suspend Moss for PED use, and he can not suspend him for conduct because the allegations are directly related to a bargained contract. Meaning, to invoke a suspension there has to be proof (legal proof that will stand up in court) that a player violated the bargained section.

EDIT: In other words, if the final court decision on the Williams' case is that they did not violate the bargained section, the Commish will not be permitted to suspend them for conduct. Just as he will not be permitted to suspend Moss for conduct if there is no solid proof he took HGH. Absent legal evidence or a positive test, Moss will not be suspended for this.

[pvkeeper19]

Agreed. The Williams' FAILED a drug test. Moss has not failed a test, and is being presumed guilty based on speculation. Without proof, the Commish can not suspend Moss for PED use, and he can not suspend him for conduct because the allegations are directly related to a bargained contract. Meaning, to invoke a suspension there has to be proof (legal proof that will stand up in court) that a player violated the bargained section.

First of all, Moss isn't being presumed guilty by anyone but fans and media. They don't get a say in whether he gets suspended. Goodell does, and I have faith that he will make the right decision when the time comes. He has done so in the past.

Law enforcement is apparently looking at Moss as a witness. If, in his conversations regarding Galea, he admits to having used HGH, he'll be suspended, just like Rodney Harrison was (even tough Harrison never tested positive).

[NewCliche21]

People are missing this:

Moss can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team or the league. Associating with a doctor like that, without notifying your medical staff, and causing this stir is all to the detriment of the team.

[Popeman38]

People are missing this:

Moss can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team or the league. Associating with a doctor like that, without notifying your medical staff, and causing this stir is all to the detriment of the team.

Not true. PEDs are covered in a specifically bargained section, and as such, any suspension must meet the legal requirements agreed to. If Moss were being linked to illegal drug dealers, he could be suspended for conduct. If Moss is suspended for conduct based on this investigation without admitted use or a positive test, Moss will immediately file a grievance/lawsuit and will not miss a day of the 2010 season. If this alleged activity was outside a specifically bargained section, then the Commish could use his judgment to suspend Moss. But since this is specifically alleged PED use, the Commish is bound by the bargained position (again, see the Williams case).

[NewCliche21]

Not true. PEDs are covered in a specifically bargained section, and as such, any suspension must meet the legal requirements agreed to. If Moss were being linked to illegal drug dealers, he could be suspended for conduct. If Moss is suspended for conduct based on this investigation without admitted use or a positive test, Moss will immediately file a grievance/lawsuit and will not miss a day of the 2010 season. If this alleged activity was outside a specifically bargained section, then the Commish could use his judgment to suspend Moss. But since this is specifically alleged PED use, the Commish is bound by the bargained position (again, see the Williams case).

. . . well then.

Looks like I have nothing more to say!

[AngloSackSon]

but how he used it and why are clearly relevant to the situation.

No, these details are not relevant.

IF he DID use hGH, Moss is in clear violation of NFL directive. If he is guilty he's gonna be punished, and it is equivocating to argue the validity of said punishment.

[Fletch_Lives59]

suspend him for the whole season, whocares...I can live without his 70 catches 3 TD's....terrible

[wilburmarshall]

If true and Moss gets the 4 game suspension....Hello TO....

Ha-ha! It opens the door!

[wilburmarshall]

I am a physician and I think the debate comes down to the definition of use by the NFL and Santana's intention. Short coarses or single local injections with HGH makes sense to me, to allow players and injuries to heal faster and get back on the field faster. IV injection or oral intake is a systemic therapy and is meant to make all muscles and soft tissue stronger and increase performance. If HGH is lumped in with the general PED's then local injection into muscle injury to promode healing should not be considered a PED, as it is a very short coarse to help with injury repair and does not improve performance on the field. I am certain this is what Romanowski meant by his comments, but he is not a good spokes person on the matter, just like Kavorkian was not a good spokes person for euthanasia. I would agree with the use of HGH in the above manner, but I am also not the rules commitee in the NFL.

All that being said, I am sure the NFL does not take these technicalities into consideration and additionally Moss will probably be in trouble because he was aquiring it illegally from a doctor who was not authorized to bring HGH into the US and does not have a liscence to practice in the US. I agree with Shannahans approach of allowing the process to play itself out, and if Moss was taking it systemically then he should be in trouble and will serve a suspension. I haven't seen any news to how he reportedly used it in the past and what his intention was to use it in the current instance. Use and intention are very important in this instance and the media has left that out of the discussion, but then again that doesn't suprise me.

Love Old Crow...

[tone_dubbz]

I didn't think this was worthy of starting another post, especially about speculation so here it is:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/21/another-redskins-player-could-be-caught-up-in-galea-case/

Pretty vague, but still implies that someone else maybe involved.

[SkindaNFC]

b/c he's not licensed to practice in this Country. Medicine transcends borders (i.e. Doctors without borders -- check it out!). A lot of countries have strict regulations on the practice of medicine esppppppp the US, but the human body in one country is the same in another country! Think all those doctors in the Haiti Relief were licensed to practice there? Its a my personal belief that any doctor licensed in the US should be allowed to practice in Canada and vice versa. Our medical systems are becoming more congruent by the day. You probably couldn't fathom what doctors have to truly go through to obtain their licenses.

[brianm23]

WRONG. PEDs are specifically covered in the CBA. Meaning, there has to be legal proof that a player violated that portion of the CBA. Commish can not simply suspend Moss under the player conduct section when it pertains to PEDs. There is a process, and it must be followed. See the Williams' in Minny, they popped positive on a test and they still haven't served the suspensions yet. If the Commish could simply suspend them for "conduct detrimental", don't you think the league would have dropped the PED process and just gone that route? There is a process, and if the Commish suspends Moss for his "conduct detrimental" there will most likely be an immediate appeal to the courts, the suspension will be dismissed, and Moss will not miss a single game. Of course, all this hinges on Moss' ability to deny and no factual evidence that he actually used HGH (transactions, admissions, video....).

Not sure about that. Rodney Harrison didn't fail a test, yet he got suspended 4 games by the commish for PED usage.

[Popeman38]

Not sure about that. Rodney Harrison didn't fail a test, yet he got suspended 4 games by the commish for PED usage.

Yes, because Rodney Harrison admitted to using HGH.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2999994

New England Patriots strong safety Rodney Harrison has been suspended for the first four regular-season games after violating the NFL's substance-abuse policy, the league said early Saturday.

The 34-year-old Harrison, suspended without pay, will be eligible to return to the Patriots' active roster following the team's Oct. 1 game against the Cincinnati Bengals. He acknowledged the suspension in a late Friday night conference call, admitting that he obtained human growth hormone but said that he had never taken steroids.

"I want to make it clear," Harrison said, "that never once did I take steroids. I did admit to the commissioner that I took a banned substance."

The league issued a statement late Friday night confirming that Harrison is suspended without pay for four games, effective immediately.

Harrison said that his actions stemmed from his desire to "accelerate the healing process" from his various injuries the past two seasons.

Like I said, absent an admission of guilt, evidence that removes any doubt, or a positive on a drug test, Moss can't be suspended.

[Laxpunk2006]

What do you do in the military when someone breaks a rule? Let him slide, because "nobody's perfect?"

HGH use is explicitly prohibited by the NFL, and the punishment for violating that rule is established: 4-game suspension. Additionally, it's a violation of federal law.

If this was a Cowboy we were talking about, everybody would be throwing the book at him.

If this were any other team no one would be defending him. No one wants Merriman because he's a juicer but it's okay for Moss? Whether it was to heal an injury or not it is still a competitive advantage. It is still illegal. I'm not saying we need to crucify him but he does deserve a suspension. Even if it isn't proven he can still be suspended under the personal conduct policy. Being inolved with a doctor illegally practicing medicine draws a shadow over the NFL. Big Ben didn't get charged and he got suspended. Same deal can happen with Moss.

I don't understand how anyone can try to defend him at his point (assuming this isn't a complete fabrication, which I don't believe it is). If he took hgh he cheated, end of story. Why he didn't has no bearing.

[NewCliche21]

If this were any other team no one would be defending him. No one wants Merriman because he's a juicer but it's okay for Moss? Whether it was to heal an injury or not it is still a competitive advantage. It is still illegal. I'm not saying we need to crucify him but he does deserve a suspension. Even if it isn't proven he can still be suspended under the personal conduct policy. Being inolved with a doctor illegally practicing medicine draws a shadow over the NFL. Big Ben didn't get charged and he got suspended. Same deal can happen with Moss.

I don't understand how anyone can try to defend him at his point (assuming this isn't a complete fabrication, which I don't believe it is). If he took hgh he cheated, end of story. Why he didn't has no bearing.

I am completely in agreement. Let's not burn him at the stake, but if he cheated, then he cheated, and he deserves the punishment.

[posse87]

No, these details are not relevant.

IF he DID use hGH, Moss is in clear violation of NFL directive. If he is guilty he's gonna be punished, and it is equivocating to argue the validity of said punishment.

That isn't true....localized injection of HGH is not in violation of the PED policy because it will not enhance performance it is used to heal from injury. It will not make him faster or stronger. It is not a systemic use. You should read my OP.

[Popeman38]

If this were any other team no one would be defending him. No one wants Merriman because he's a juicer but it's okay for Moss? Whether it was to heal an injury or not it is still a competitive advantage. It is still illegal. I'm not saying we need to crucify him but he does deserve a suspension. Even if it isn't proven he can still be suspended under the personal conduct policy. Being inolved with a doctor illegally practicing medicine draws a shadow over the NFL. Big Ben didn't get charged and he got suspended. Same deal can happen with Moss.

I don't understand how anyone can try to defend him at his point (assuming this isn't a complete fabrication, which I don't believe it is). If he took hgh he cheated, end of story. Why he didn't has no bearing.

Bolded: WRONG PEDs are specifically bargained and as such, only when you meet the standard bargained for violating the PED provision can you be suspended. See the Williams' case in Minny (new ruling today):

We've obtained and digested the 11-page written opinion from Judge Gary Larson regarding his decision to extend a temporary injunction that prevents the implementation of four-game suspensions against Vikings defensive tackles Pat and Kevin Williams until their appeal is resolved.

Our first impression? It's highly unlikely that the Williamses will be suspended at any point in the 2010 season.

They tested positive for a banned substance, and yet haven't served a suspension yet. And if the Fed Appellate court finds that they did not violate the bargained PED provision, they will not ever serve a suspension. And the Commish can't suspend them for violating the conduct clause either, because the entire world knows that he would be back dooring them for PEDs.

The same holds true for Moss. Without an admission to HGH use or a positive test/overwhelming legal evidence for HGH use, the league can't touch him. Because the entire world knows that he would be back dooring him for PEDs.

Moss will take the same route the Williams' did if the Commish tries to suspend him under the conduct policy, and he would have a much better case than they do, because there will be no evidence he broke any rule.

There is no bargained rape/sexual assault clause in the CBA, which allowed the Commish to suspend for repeated conduct issues. Moss has a squeaky clean image, so there is no history.