Art Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Last week more than anything I was disturbed by the number of mistakes we made. More than the emerging hysteria over the play of the defensive line even. After the Cowboy game last year I wrote that we are just a stupid team that was did the fundamental things poorly. The simple things. Picking up fumbles. Lining up without jumping off. Taking a dumb holding penalty. Basic dumb sh!t. So far this preseason that's continued. It's continued for a decade. It's frustrating because you watch, or in my case listen, to these games and you see we are a team that can make plays. There's enough talent to compete and excel. But for too long we've been a team that simply can't seem to appreciate success. We must screw it up. This is going to become my key worry with this team until there's a clear sign that we're overcoming this sort of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomar Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Well, lets hope its just about working out the kinks. There is no one left to blame, Norv - gone, slew of DCoordinaters - gone, every player from pre-1999 - gone...maybe its my fault... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeB Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Art, I think that will take years to see. Not something we will see or appreciate in one season, unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Art good post. We can be a pretty good team, but mistakes will bring down any team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin Deep Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Art, I don't understand. If I'm a coach for the skins and my players are acting this undisciplined, I seriously challenge these guys at practice. I purposely humiliate these guys at practice until they obtain the focus that is needed. Our coaches need to step up their discipline and have serious ramifications for these same, stupid mistakes. My point is basically that there are ways to crack down on such stupidity. Are all these ways being explored? Is our camp too soft? Are our means of establishing discipline too soft? I don't know the answer b/c I'm not there day in and day out at practice. One thing I do know is that these multi-millionaire prima-donna's are in the business of football, and in football you are allowed to beat the s@*# out of people. If I was a coach on this staff, I would have a sincere talk with the players, and if things haven't turned around, I would do everything in my power to work these punks and kick their ass until they were willing to show the professionalism and discipline that is necessary at this level. Treat them like the amatuer idiots that they have shown themselves to be until they are willing to prove themselves otherwise. I'm very disappointed and angry at our 1st quarter and a half of play. There are no excuses. I just wish I could force these guys to take a serious look at themselves in the mirror and determine whether they are capable of performing at this level. If they think they are, then show it! If not, there are a lot of hungry people who are willling and ready to do so. I'm very pissed! And drunk, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 The Redskins are a team with a lot of flux on the roster. Have been for a number of years. You see guys in and out with clear starters yet to be determined at FB, TE, RB, DT and S and that adds up to a squad that is going to take awhile to gel. In the meantime, on the offensive line where there are 2 new starters and an injury at center, MORE transitions. OL is probably the most difficult unit in the league to change over without suffering a loss of productivity. You can plug in a kicker or a DT, but OC, OG or OT? Not as easy. So, in my mind half of the battle to overcome the penalties and miscommunication is to field basically the same unit(s) for a period of time and allow them to develop synergy. the other part of it IS the coaching as has been said here. especially on special teams, where the club has been let down on all fronts in recent seasons. punting, kicking, returns, coverage. it has ALL been bad. there is no doubt in my mind that the Marv Levy of 1974, Wayne Sevier of 1986 or Pete Rodriguez of 1997 could get this group of special teams players to do a credible job and not end up with 98 yard returns beating us in a game we dominated from a peak at the scoresheet I'm sure that Spurrier can cuss with the best of 'em and give the team a tongue lashing after a loss like the one at Carolina or the one tonight where the mistakes overshadowed the physical edge the Skins had overall. BUT, one has to question whether Spurrier runs a tight enough ship to get 45 guys to play together and execute effectively week in and week out over a 16 game schedule? THAT is the challenge. Allen's teams were consistent week to week. You knew what you were and were not going to get. Ditto for Gibbs' teams. Free agency has caused greater roster turnover, but teams like the Eagles, Titans, Bucs, and Raiders have still been able to form an identity and play together with a sense of shared purpose and motivation. That has been lacking here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montilar Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Our coaches need to step up their discipline and have serious ramifications for these same, stupid mistakes. My point is basically that there are ways to crack down on such stupidity. Are all these ways being explored? Is our camp too soft? Are our means of establishing discipline too soft? I don't know the answer b/c I'm not there day in and day out at practice. Well, Spurrier instituted a 10 buck fine for errors in camp. I don't know how much harsher you can get when dealing with millionaires.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 He also said that the difference in our special teams is that the Pats makes holes the skins just block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Art is right about the stupid mistakes. Unfortunately, I think coaching has a lot to do with this. Although Joe Gibbs' teams did not always have the most talent, they played smart football and rarely beat themselves. In my book the jury is still out on Spurrier, so I don't want to hang him until more evidence is in. But he is so laid back, I'm wondering if the whole team takes him that seriously. He may well be an offensive guru, but that doesn't mean he will turn out to be a great HEAD coach. Norv Turner was supposedly an offensive guru too [from most of what I read] but he was too laid back and his teams always self destructed, most of the times beating themselves. Sonny Jurgenson pointed out that after the Redskins lost on Sunday, it was usually a country club atmosphere on Monday morning at Redskin Park. I don't know much about the coaches that Spurrier brought with him, but I'm not too impressed with Mike Stock who Schottenheimer brought in. We should never have let Pete Rodriquez go, who was a great special teams coach. On the positive side, Hall looked good; Morton should do fine; but as soon as Barker shanks another punt, he should be gone. It's too late now in the season, but I think that Mike Stock should be replaced too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyJ Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Originally posted by Skin Deep Art, I don't understand. If I'm a coach for the skins and my players are acting this undisciplined, I seriously challenge these guys at practice. I purposely humiliate these guys at practice until they obtain the focus that is needed. Our coaches need to step up their discipline and have serious ramifications for these same, stupid mistakes. My point is basically that there are ways to crack down on such stupidity. Are all these ways being explored? Is our camp too soft? Are our means of establishing discipline too soft? I don't know the answer b/c I'm not there day in and day out at practice. One thing I do know is that these multi-millionaire prima-donna's are in the business of football, and in football you are allowed to beat the s@*# out of people. If I was a coach on this staff, I would have a sincere talk with the players, and if things haven't turned around, I would do everything in my power to work these punks and kick their ass until they were willing to show the professionalism and discipline that is necessary at this level. Treat them like the amatuer idiots that they have shown themselves to be until they are willing to prove themselves otherwise. I'm very disappointed and angry at our 1st quarter and a half of play. There are no excuses. I just wish I could force these guys to take a serious look at themselves in the mirror and determine whether they are capable of performing at this level. If they think they are, then show it! If not, there are a lot of hungry people who are willling and ready to do so. I'm very pissed! And drunk, lol. This type of approach may help allay your anger at the performance on the field, but getting pissed at the players is not an effective long-term strategy for getting them to focus better. Some strategic waiving of players may help to some extent, but players like Jansen know that they are untouchable. When the high-salary guys and team leaders are having mental lapses, the only approach that I can see is to keep working on things until you get them right. If you have to lengthen practice to do this, so be it - that WILL get players' attention. There really are no quick fixes - your players must be focussed and know things by rote. But, Art pegged this - it was exactly what I was thinking, so he must be right . This team seems to continue the propensity for the killer mistake - stupid penalties, dropped balls, missed blocks, blown coverages, etc. These will happen to some extent with every team - no one is perfect, after all. The difference is that the good teams minimize these plays, whereas the also-rans compound them. And the difference is coaching (in some way, shape, or form). But, I don't want to hear about laid-back approaches being the problem. Marty will never be accused of being laid-back, and his Redskin team was as stupid as any I've seen. NE was largely inert on offense last night - a good first drive and one big play were about the extent of its output. Without the brain cramps, the Redskins were the superior team - but that is easy to say. Part of being a superior team is negating the brain cramps. The Redskins cannot say they are a good team until they start negating the brain cramps - until then, they can "outplay" the other team on paper all they want, but the superior team will be the one that manages to not ultimately shoot itself in the foot. The high risk/reward nature of the way the Redskins play (certainly on offense, and hopefully on defense, too) may very well lead to more mistakes - as long as that style is a net positive, I can live with it. But, those mistakes cannot include turnovers and giving up scores on special teams. Those are the types of mistakes that are difficult to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sashae Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 It's weird that through 10 years and 4 (5) HCs, the same lackadaisical and slack attitudes still permeate the team. While it's easy to blame the Norv era, as has already been mentioned, the Schottenheimer team was just as bad. I think, much like the Wizards, a culture of slackitude has has been developed that isn't going to disappear until we have some serious respected top-down leadership... Spurrier, to date, hasn't proven that he can be that guy. -s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I'm beginning to think the $10 payment plan isn't working. I'd think jumping offsides or false starting and killing a drive should be a $500.00 fine. I mean.... they get the snap count in the huddle.... are they that scatterbrained that they can't remember it walking 10 yards to the LOS. Gardner drives me nuts.... a false start here..... a dropped pass there. Spurrier must be frustrated with his mental lapses. As for Jansen, I think he's put to much pressure on himself. Sure, he can anchor the line..... but he should worry about him and his relationship with Thomas and not trying to be team spokesman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 17, 2003 Author Share Posted August 17, 2003 The point is that the general feel of a team all to able and willing to beat itself has been with us through Norv, Robiske, Marty and now Spurrier. All have had differing approaches to dealing with mistakes. Nothing has mattered and I don't have any real idea how to "fix" it because it isn't tangible. It's an underlying intangible. How frequently over the last few years have we just torn through a team on offense and even defense and lost? You can look at games each year where we just are clearly better than the other team, but we lose. Last year a game like the Giants game stood out because they had no way of stopping us. We simply outplayed them and lost. Five or six big negative plays, most not created by them, but, caused by our own lack of focus. This has happened time and again. Sonny is right that too many players out there know they are untouchable. Even those that are touchable don't seem to have anything done. Here's what I'd do if I were coaching this team. Jansen would be stripped of his captain status and not dressed for the next game. I wouldn't play Ramsey a ton either in this case, but, the message to Jansen is, we can't cut you, but we don't have to pretend we need you either. Patrick Johnson is a guy you could have cured during the game. Take him off the field after the fumbled punt and tell him, "Ok, son, you take a seat over there where you can't hurt the team anymore." Even if you decide to let him make a play by not doing this, the second he drops that touchdown, you make a show of benching him. All week you make him do EVERYTHING. Team needs water prepped? "Pat, go get the water ready." Make him retrieve balls for kickers. Make him run extra sprints, then, when the team is done say, "Pat here seemed to be dogging it a little, so let's do five more the whole of us." You can't get through to players really anymore. But, you can send messages to the team. The team can see that mistakes have consequences. Not only for the individual, but, when the individual makes a mistake, that mistake costs the team extra effort. Let's put it this way. None of us has a clue what Parcells is doing in Dallas by not dressing Hutchinson. But, I GUARANTEE you if Spurrier didn't dress Jansen, the team would take notice. Bet me Dallas didn't? Further, the guys you KNOW are just fodder shouldn't remain here any longer. Elisara should have been cut last week after the game. The message should have been, "You young guys fighting for a spot are not important here. You screw up, I'll cut you and find someone else. I can get anyone to screw up so we don't need you doing it." It's a mix and match you have to balance. The high priced players are harder to touch. The guys you want to keep have to have their egos slapped. The guys you don't need you need fast and angry action against. If you juggle the different sorts with the proper sorts of responses what you'll wind up creating is a team that polices itself and I don't know that we have that now. Or, perhaps all this is why I'm not a coach . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Well, Spurrier instituted a 10 buck fine for errors in camp. I don't know how much harsher you can get when dealing with millionaires.... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: Couldn't agree more Art. Benching a player sends the clearest message. I don't think Spurrier has it in him to do such a thing except at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I think I hear Utah coming down the hall....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaganaut Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 So far this preseason that's continued. It's continued for a decade The offense got booed last night on one series with Patrick Ramsey at the helm. These are die hard fans who make the trek for Preseason games, but I wasn't surprised. This type of play indicates to me that they are doing a repeat of the Marty season. I can't see them winning many games in the early season. I am not withholding criticism even in the preseason anymore. They are playing like the Cardinals who always gave you a sniff of promise, but in the end would blow all their chances. This is going to be a LONG season...:40oz: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. D Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 mental mistakes=POOR COACHING! lemme say it again mental mistakes= POOR COACHING! if the players are unprepared to play ahem its the COACHES fault. Sonny was trying to be diplomatic last night in not overtly spelling it out to Georgie. The point is still valid though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 17, 2003 Author Share Posted August 17, 2003 D, I hear your point, but, there's something more. This isn't something that's happened to this team during Spurrier's years that was absent earlier. It's been here for a decade. With Marty too. I'm a huge guy in the belief that coaching matters in the NFL often more than talent. It certainly matters more than any other league. What's been evident here for a decade is a bit inexplicable given the fact that all styles of coaches have been here and the same symptoms of the problem have persisted. Given that I have the view that the problems are greater than the coaching techniques used and fall more on the players. We don't have anyone who seems completely unwilling to accept failure. We don't have anyone completely dominating among the players willing to control the level of intensity themselves. Arrington could be, but he's too affable. One positive I've taken from this offseason is importing so many players from recent playoff teams. Other than Noble, who is a heart and effort player though not a winner, the other guys have experienced success and understand the effort necessary to attain it. It's that experience we haven't been able win our own that may prove a positive influence over time. And, it's that influence that hasn't taken root apparently to this point that upsets me up to this point more than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsanity56 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 losing breeds losing.winning breeds winning. as someone mentioned SOS is eerily laid back like turner..gosh darnit,we'll get 'em next time with the pitch & catch. also how far can you go with scolding/reprimanding todays athlete.& it's even worse when they can go above you and cry to the true/real boss.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Art, this is exactly why I was so enraged to hear the team was "loafing around" and "taking it easy" during the last two days of training camp. It's all about the mental focus for this team. I can understand wanting to tone down practice so as not to risk injuries or beat the guys up too much, but there are plenty of more constructive things than walk throughs that you can do that won't take a physical toll on the players. Like I said, this team has needed a good kick in the pants for the last decade, still does, and, unfortunately, SS does not appear to be the man to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 18, 2003 Author Share Posted August 18, 2003 MAP, When you are going through light practices focused on drilling home individual plays and is really more for the mental reps than the physical ones you're going to have a certain amount loafing around and taking it easy. Such practices are designed to teach players, not waste them. Now, obviously, only one of these practices was a TRUE walk through. But another was a light shell no contact type thing. I don't think it's a kick in the pants this team needs anymore. Marty gave that kick and the team kicked back. This team needs someone to step up and realize it's not Snyder's fault we don't have defensive tackles. It's YOUR fault Haley for not making a play. We need someone to step up and realize it's NOT Spurrier's fault for not running more. It's YOUR fault Jansen for not blocking better. We need a player or group of players to simply say, "DO YOUR EFFING JOB." We need a blanket party. The BEST team we've had since Gibbs left was that 8-3, boring, basic, undertalented and under budge Marty team. Why? Because the players finally resolved to find one uniform thing to play for. Themselves. I don't suggest they tune out the coach as they did Marty now. I just suggest it's time the players remember they are the ones who are making the mistakes. And they are the only ones, in this day and age, who can stop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 I think the comment about winning is the most important of all the comments so far. Comparing this team to a gibbs team isn't fair because washington has always been a big football market. We could pay for the best athletes and we got them. Free agency changed everything. AS for fans booing, we've had complete turnover since 1999, and the only constant has been the fans. If you boo the team in preseason, you're part of the problem. But to the main point, I think that wilbon wrote an excellent article last year. "First you win, then you get good." I think he was quoting someone, but it is so true. This team needs confidence and attitude. The kick in the pants approach didn't work with marty, so why would it work now. Why would it work when every study ever done has shown that negative reinforcement creates more problems than it solves. Do you want the guy on the field worrying about catching the ball or keeping his job? Theres a reason random positive reinforcement works best. This team needs to win. It needs to get some confidence, and it needs to be comfortable. That's why I can't disagree more with some of the posts on this very thread. You think discomfort is the answer. I think Jansen feels like he needs to do everything. I think gardner is afraid to work hard because he's worried the team will just fail again. It's pretty textbook, and the answer isn't sitting him, its winning. Coaching is always a part of winning, but we need to get the demon off our back. The team needs to believe, and it can start with the fans. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 First off does anyone know exactly how many penalties were thrown in the first half against us?? I was at the game and it didn't look like were were playing sloppy at all. Except for Terrel getting beat bad, but that was just a blown assignment, again not a big deal. I know the second half there were more penalties, but once again these are backups just trying to make the team and they are a little jittery. I love how the newspapers take a stat, say 11 penalties, and proclaim that we were sloppy, however I believe at least 8 of them were in the second half against backups. Sounds like some fans on this board freaking out. What no one is talking about is we ran between the tackles all night, who though we would be able to do that?? Ramsey didn't look to bad. ST needs some help, but looked better. I am not worried about the drops, it was very wet, pretty nasty there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 18, 2003 Author Share Posted August 18, 2003 Sorry, Jbooma, but we had 9 penalties in the first half. Not good my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Originally posted by Art Sorry, Jbooma, but we had 9 penalties in the first half. Not good my friend. do you know what they were?? honestly being at the game i didn't notice that many penalties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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