Where does Kobe Bryant rank among NBA greats?

[MattFancy]

I was thinking about this yesterday...how has Kobe only won 1 MVP?

[VTmike]

Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson need some more consideration.

[Sticksboi05]

Top 10. Top 5 is Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird and then you have Shaq among others. Kobe has 4 titles but only 1 Finals MVP and it was against a far undermatched Orlando Magic team. Magic and Bird had to go through each other. I rank Shaq higher. He has 3 Finals MVP's. He was more important to those early 2000's Lakers than Bryant.

[Sticksboi05]

I was thinking about this yesterday...how has Kobe only won 1 MVP?

How did MJ only win 5. His 1989 season where he averaged 32.5 PPG 8 RPG 8 APG on 54% shooting he somehow didn't win MVP. Voting is screwy.

Like Bill Walton said, MJ deserved around 8 or more.

Kobe deserved more as well. They had better screw over LeBron if they screwed over others.

[Kosher Ham]

I would argue Russell is in a class all by himself..... I would argue all the rest are great top 10-15 talents worthy of having championship teams built around.

And I would say that The Dream was better than Russell.

Kareem was better then Wilt or Russell IMO. Hakeem really should have been a Power Forward to me but as a Center, he was dominating. Right now, today, nobody could match up with him IMO. Much better then given credit for to me.

Absolutely.

I was thinking about this yesterday...how has Kobe only won 1 MVP?

Robbed by Steve Nash, Dirk, and then LeBron last year.

[Kosher Ham]

Top 10. Top 5 is Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird and then you have Shaq among others. Kobe has 4 titles but only 1 Finals MVP and it was against a far undermatched Orlando Magic team. Magic and Bird had to go through each other. I rank Shaq higher. He has 3 Finals MVP's. He was more important to those early 2000's Lakers than Bryant.

He was equally important. Same as Jordan needed Pippen, same as Pierce needed Garnett.

These Finals MVP things are just as bogus as making the Pro Bowl. People Kobe was JUST AS important on those teams as Shaq.

[Sticksboi05]

Hakeem and Kareem > Russell and Wilt

Russell is the greatest winner ever but he and Wilt played in a far far less competitive era and had nobody but themselves to stop them. Even with all of Wilt's absurd PPG seasons, Jordan still has the highest ever. Not including his Wizards years it is 31.4 PPG. Hakeem was a defensive magician and put up over 20 PPG and 10 boards per game. Kareem was Kareem with the sky hook.

[authentic]

I don't know bro..

1. MJ

2. Magic

3. Wilt

4. Oscar

5. Shaq

6. Kobe

[Sticksboi05]

He was equally important. Same as Jordan needed Pippen, same as Pierce needed Garnett.

These Finals MVP things are just as bogus as making the Pro Bowl. People Kobe was JUST AS important on those teams as Shaq.

I seem to recall all the legendary performances being by O'Neal. He almost had a quadruple double in one game. You look back at Jordan's career and remember so many classic playoff performances and Finals performances. Same with Shaq and Magic and Bird. Kobe had very good performances but none that are legendary.

[authentic]

Hakeem.

Why this man doesn't get his due respect among the all-time greats, i will never understand. He has to be like top 3 greatest centers of all time. Hakeem was a monster.

[authentic]

I seem to recall all the legendary performances being by O'Neal. He almost had a quadruple double in one game. You look back at Jordan's career and remember so many classic playoff performances and Finals performances. Same with Shaq and Magic and Bird. Kobe....

Also, Shaq owns all 3 finals MVPs during those Lakers championships. Kobe was a major contributor, but Shaq was the man on that team. There is no question about that.

[Kosher Ham]

I seem to recall all the legendary performances being by O'Neal. He almost had a quadruple double in one game. You look back at Jordan's career and remember so many classic playoff performances and Finals performances. Same with Shaq and Magic and Bird. Kobe....

Kobe is certainly better than Bird. That is not even a question in my mind.

Kobe played within the game during those years. He didn't need to dominate as much because Shaq, Horry, Fox, and Fisher took so much pressure off of him.

Why this man doesn't get his due respect among the all-time greats, i will never understand. He has to be like top 3 greatest centers of all time. Hakeem was a monster.

In my mind he was the best ever at the position, I am sure plenty of people would agree.

[JMS]

Top 10. Top 5 is Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird and then you have Shaq among others. Kobe has 4 titles but only 1 Finals MVP and it was against a far undermatched Orlando Magic team. Magic and Bird had to go through each other. I rank Shaq higher. He has 3 Finals MVP's. He was more important to those early 2000's Lakers than Bryant.

What about Dr J? 3 championships, 3 final MVP's, 4 scoring titles, and 3 league mvps?

Kareem is tough pick.... 1 championship without Magic, 5 with him.. But 2 finals mvps, and 6 league MVP's is hard to argue with.

[frommd]

Hakeem the Dream is one of my all time favorites. He was in a class by himself in centers. He owned young Shaq and Ewing in winning his titles.

[frommd]

Actually Dr J arguable has better winning stats than Kobe.... As the primary guy he won 3 professional championships, more MVP's, More Scoring Titles. And Dr J never played with Shaq, although Moses Molone was pretty good.

Dr J. ( ABA before merger, and NBA)

3× Championships

3X Finals MVP

4× League MVP

3X Scoring Titles

Kobe Briant.

4× NBA Champion

1X NBA Finals MVP

1X League Most Valuable Player

2× NBA scoring champion

Coarse Kobe is still going. But if you go by what they've done so far... you could easily make the case Dr. J was the better player. I'm thinking it's funny you guys are going to believe I'm slamming Kobe here... What's funny is anybody would be insulted by coming in a close second to Dr. J...

Before MJ, Dr. J was proable the most dynamic, creative, and entertaining offensive player in league history.

Most of Dr. J's stats up there came in the ABA. His one NBA (post-merger) title came with Moses as "the Man." Which in your own words means it doesn't mean much in arguing for him.

Again, I'm not arguing Julius wasn't great. I'm just saying he is a small notch below the other two.

[PeterMP]

He was equally important. Same as Jordan needed Pippen, same as Pierce needed Garnett.

These Finals MVP things are just as bogus as making the Pro Bowl. People Kobe was JUST AS important on those teams as Shaq.

I'm sorry, but Jordan didn't NEED Pippen. He needed somebody Pippen-like (and I use the word "like" there loosely to include people beyond those that played small forward) that just happened to be Pippen.

You could have plugged a pretty large number of other NBA players into those Chicago Bulls teams instead of Pippen, and they would have won tittles.

If you take Jordan out and leave Pippen, AT BEST VERY FEW (probably none) NBA players could have been plugged in there and still won all of those tittles.

There is a difference.

[JMS]

Kobe is certainly better than Bird. That is not even a question in my mind.

Kobe played within the game during those years. He didn't need to dominate as much because Shaq, Horry, Fox, and Fisher took so much pressure off of him.

In my mind he was the best ever at the position, I am sure plenty of people would agree.

Maybe plenty of people from LA..... Not many else... Bird's was a much better player than Kobe has been to date....

Lary Bird over 12 years

3× NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)

2× NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)

3× NBA MVP (1984–1986)

12× All-Star

Kobe Briant. over 14 years

4× NBA Champion

1X NBA Finals MVP

1X NBA MVP

12× All-Star

Bird played 12 seasons.... Kobe has already been in the league 14 and is arguable still in his prime..... Kobe's stats are don't match Birds and his stats are bloated by the fact he skipped college.

[frommd]

I'm sorry, but Jordan didn't NEED Pippen. He needed somebody Pippen-like (and I use the word "like" there loosely to include people beyond those that played small forward) that just happened to be Pippen.

You could have plugged a pretty large number of other NBA players into those Chicago Bulls teams instead of Pippen, and they would have won tittles.

If you take Jordan out and leave Pippen, AT BEST VERY FEW (probably none) NBA players could have been plugged in there and still won all of those tittles.

There is a difference.

I absolutely agree with this. Jordan was undeniably great. His game had no weakness.

[JMS]

I'm sorry, but Jordan didn't NEED Pippen. He needed somebody Pippen-like (and I use the word "like" there loosely to include people beyond those that played small forward) that just happened to be Pippen.

I agree with that. Jordan made Pippen... Pippen was a great player, like McCail, or Worthy; But if they hadn't stepped up there were plenty of great players who could have helped those Boston, Lakers or Chicago teams to championships.

If you take Jordan out and leave Pippen, AT BEST VERY FEW (probably none) NBA players could have been plugged in there and still won all of those tittles.

There is a difference.

I think that's pretty much true of all the great dynasties which win's multiple championships... except for Detroit.... Issaih might be the exception. Dumars was equally if not more imporant than Issaih and they had such a tremendous bench....

The other thought is... not many second banana's progress and win championships on their own... It's almost unheard of... Kobe has done it... Which shows he is very special.... the argument is over how special.

[Kosher Ham]

Jordan has how many rings without Pippen ?

And absolutely Kobe is better than Bird. Kobe skipped college and didn't even become a starter for the Lakers until his 3rd year, which was a strike season.

[EersSkins05]

Kobe is certainly better than Bird. That is not even a question in my mind.

Kobe played within the game during those years. He didn't need to dominate as much because Shaq, Horry, Fox, and Fisher took so much pressure off of him.

My, my, the memories on some of you just amazes me. Larry Bird was the best player on 3 championship teams, including probably the greatest team ever assembled, the '86 Celtics. He won 3 MVPs (back to back to back). He didn't defend as well as Kobe (although he wasn't as bad as people remember and Kobe has gotten much better on D in recent years), but he was a far better passer and rebounder, and was better in the clutch, too.

(I know what you think you see with your eyes with Kobe in the clutch. Over the past 6 years he's shot 25% in situations with 24 seconds or less with the game either tied or his team behind by 1 or 2. The stats don't lie. In terms of shooting %, he's among the lowest of anyone in the top 30 of game-winning shots other than another guy who's coasted on a false rep- Chauncey "Not Mr. Big Shot" Billups. Despite shooting a higher number of shots in those situations, he hasn't even hit as many as Ray Allen or Vince Carter, let alone Lebron.)

Bird could dominate a basketball game without taking a shot. Kobe needs 20 shots to affect a game.

Kobe has been the best player on a champion exactly once. Shaq wins a title with another serviceable SG in 2000-2002 seasons. Kobe doesn't win any of them without Shaq. (There's a reason Shaq was the Finals MVP all 3 times.)

When Kobe's team lucks out on the dumbest trade in the history of basketball until Jamison to the Cavs, he returns to the championship and people forget all about everything that happened before that. Like the fact that he was thisclose to being traded to Chicago, but Chicago wouldn't pull the trigger because they didn't want to give up Luol freaking Deng.

He was a petulant team-killer whose selfishness made him expendable. Until Gasol. Now even though he's the same player and has the same tendencies (remember when he refused to shoot in a clinching game in a loss to the Suns in 2006? He did it again in Game 3 against the Thunder), winning a title erases everything that came before it. All hail Kobe and his 4 rings.

Kobe's probably in the top 15, no matter what happens the rest of his career. But he's not even above Tim Duncan or Shaq during his playing career, let alone above greats like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Hakeem, etc.

And for those of you saying he's CLEARLY at least the #2 greatest 2-guard of all time, The Logo is on line 1.

[JMS]

Jordan has how many rings without Pippen ?

And absolutely Kobe is better than Bird. Kobe skipped college and didn't even become a starter for the Lakers until his 3rd year, which was a strike season.

Don't forget Bird got into the league late too.... He dropped out of college and spent a few years working on a trash truck and bagging groceries before Indiana State's coach looked him up.

Bird clearly has better stats than Kobe presently... Especially when you consider Kobe will probable have 50% more time in the league when he's said and done and still won't have Birds Impact.

League MVP's 3-1

NBA Finals MVP's 2-1

Same number of Allstar games, Bird has more starts.

[Sticksboi05]

Jordan has how many rings without Pippen ?

And absolutely Kobe is better than Bird. Kobe skipped college and didn't even become a starter for the Lakers until his 3rd year, which was a strike season.

I take Bird over Kobe again because he was THE man when the Celtics won those 80's championships. So many classic performances and plays. And he had much tougher competition in the Finals. Who has Kobe beat to win his rings...

The Pacers, 76ers and Nets...yeah as if any of those teams really stood a chance. Keith Van Horn was really going to win it for New Jersey...Iverson single-handedly got one game for Philadelphia but that was it. The Pacers and a 35 year old Reggie Miller really stood a chance...then they beat the Magic...that team had no chance whatsoever.

Nothing like going against Magic/Kareem, Moses Malone and Olajuwon.

[authentic]

I absolutely agree with this. Jordan was undeniably great. His game had no weakness.

And thats not an exaggeration. GOAT.

[authentic]

My, my, the memories on some of you just amazes me. Larry Bird was the best player on 3 championship teams, including probably the greatest team ever assembled, the '86 Celtics. He won 3 MVPs (back to back to back). He didn't defend as well as Kobe (although he wasn't as bad as people remember and Kobe has gotten much better on D in recent years), but he was a far better passer and rebounder, and was better in the clutch, too.

(I know what you think you see with your eyes with Kobe in the clutch. Over the past 6 years he's shot 25% in situations with 24 seconds or less with the game either tied or his team behind by 1 or 2. The stats don't lie. In terms of shooting %, he's among the lowest of anyone in the top 30 of game-winning shots other than another guy who's coasted on a false rep- Chauncey "Not Mr. Big Shot" Billups. Despite shooting a higher number of shots in those situations, he hasn't even hit as many as Ray Allen or Vince Carter, let alone Lebron.)

Bird could dominate a basketball game without taking a shot. Kobe needs 20 shots to affect a game.

Kobe has been the best player on a champion exactly once. Shaq wins a title with another serviceable SG in 2000-2002 seasons. Kobe doesn't win any of them without Shaq. (There's a reason Shaq was the Finals MVP all 3 times.)

When Kobe's team lucks out on the dumbest trade in the history of basketball until Jamison to the Cavs, he returns to the championship and people forget all about everything that happened before that. Like the fact that he was thisclose to being traded to Chicago, but Chicago wouldn't pull the trigger because they didn't want to give up Luol freaking Deng.

He was a petulant team-killer whose selfishness made him expendable. Until Gasol. Now even though he's the same player and has the same tendencies (remember when he refused to shoot in a clinching game in a loss to the Suns in 2006? He did it again in Game 3 against the Thunder), winning a title erases everything that came before it. All hail Kobe and his 4 rings.

Kobe's probably in the top 15, no matter what happens the rest of his career. But he's not even above Tim Duncan or Shaq during his playing career, let alone above greats like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Hakeem, etc.

And for those of you saying he's CLEARLY at least the #2 greatest 2-guard of all time, The Logo is on line 1.

What in the world is wrong with you bro, bringing sound logic to a debate. You should be ashamed.