Where does Kobe Bryant rank among NBA greats?

[JMS]

Actually it's not hard at all to give him credit (though it sounds like it might be for you).

You cut off my quote.... It's hard to give Kobe credit for being the leader or the best players on any of the three championships he won with Shaq...

He wasn't the leader or focus of those teams... He was a very good supporting cast member.... Shaq won all of the Finals MVPs 2000-2002, Shaq won the League MVP, Shaq won the all defensive team spot all theree years..... Shaq lead those teams.... It's not even close...

Kobe won one championship as the focal point of the team... That's his primary resume asset in this discussion.

[JMS]

you still believe that myth?

The Laker's coach Phil Jackson said Kobe blew up the team in his book published shortly after the fact.

I don't think it's a myth.... I think Kobe was tired of being in Shaq's shadow... I also think history has proven Shaq had a few more years of quality ball to contribute.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Dr. J was amazing. But, he never had the ball-handling or jump shot of the other two.

Michael had a horrible shot coming out of North Carolina. He had a 10 to 12 foot jumper but everything else was to the hole. Like Michael, Dr. J. developed his jumper as he got older but you have to remember, when Dr. J was playing, the three point shot was not a part of the NBA game. As far as out side shooters, Kobe was much better then either Michael or Dr. J coming into the league. Much, much better. As far as ball handling skills, he had great skills in this area. In fact, if we are just talking about ball skills, while in the air, he was better then either Mike or Kobe IMO. He could do things in the air that I've never seen another player do. He was really something else. It's a shame we did not see him in his first 5 seasons.

[DCranon21]

It's nice we don't have to be subjective about it... Because I fear your hind site is 20/20..

Shaq was the NBA finals MVP in 2000.

Shaq was the NBA finals MVP in 2001.

Kobe was always in Shaq's shadow in that franchise... Which is why Kobe engineered the fanchise being blown up, likely costing the franchise a few championships...

Not acts one typically associates with an all time best player.

JMS, of course Shaq won the NBA Finals MVP those two years as he averaged 30+ ppg and 15 rpg. Kobe if I recall averaged 25 points the entire series. It's kind of hard for him not to win, if he's averaging 30 a game in the finals. He dominated Mutumbo in '01 and Rik Smits in '00. He is still the most dominate force in the game, even though he has declined. I'm not denying that. But what we are all saying is Shaq wouldn't of done it without Kobe, and vice versa. You need a duo in the NBA, it's always been like that. Ask MJ from 1984-1990. He'll agree with me.

[JMS]

Kareem was better then Wilt or Russell IMO. Hakeem really should have been a Power Forward to me but as a Center, he was dominating. Right now, today, nobody could match up with him IMO. Much better then given credit for to me.

Differen't Era's...... Karem was one of the three best centers ever...But it's hard to claim anybody dominated the league like Bill Russel did....

Bill Russel..

12 years in the league

11 championships.

5 time league MVP

12 all star caps.

Karem Abdule Jabar

20 years in the NBA

6 championshiips ( 1 without Majic Johnson)..

6 league MVP

2 finals MVP's

[JMS]

But what we are all saying is Shaq wouldn't of done it without Kobe, and vice versa. You need a duo in the NBA, it's always been like that. Ask MJ from 1984-1990. He'll agree with me.

I disagree... Shaq as the focal point of the Lakers offense and one of the most dominant centers of all time, could have certainly won NBA championships 2000-2002 without Kobe Briant.

There are loads of great NBA players would could have been plugged into those teams and replaced Kobe Bryant.... That's my point... The only indespensible player on those teams was Shaq.... It's not nearly so clear those teams would have won with Kobe and another good player.

I think the same is true of Magic, MJ, Bird, and Duncan.... they made their teams. I'm not saying they didn't have supporting casts... good suporting casts... You can't win NBA championships without good players around you.... But the one great player who elivates everybody elses game is the indispensible player... For the lakers 2000-2002, that was Shaq.

[thebluefood]

Robertson also set yardsticks in versatility. If his first five seasons are strung together, Robertson averaged a triple-double over these 400+ games, averaging an incredible 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds and 10.6 assists. For his career, Robertson had 181 triple-doubles, a record that has never been approached.

I was wondering where Robertson was. At least SOMEONE mentioned him. He might be the greatest basketball player ever. I mean, that stat as always made my jaw dropped. The man AVERAGED a triple double for five years.

Hello! McFly! That's ridiculous.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Differen't Era's...... Karem was one of the three best centers ever...But it's hard to claim anybody dominated the league like Bill Russel did....

Bill Russel..

12 years in the league

11 championships.

5 time league MVP

12 all star caps.

Karem Abdule Jabar

20 years in the NBA

6 championshiips

6 league MVP

2 finals MVP's

Bill played in an era where you only had 9 teams. The only 7 footer he really ever played against was Wilt. He didn't dominate Wilt. Not trying to taking anything away from Russell because he was a great, great player. Obviously, I have him among my top 5 but it was night and day between when Kareem played and when Bill Played. When Kareem played, he played in a golden age of big men IMO.

I think Russell actually played 13 seasons and the stats you listed are amazing but if you look at both players, here is what you see as Per Game Averages:

Russell Avg Pts. 15.1, RBs 22.5, Ast. 4.3, FG% .440, FT% .561

Kareem Avg Pts 24.6, RBs 11.2, Ast. 3.6, FG% .559, FT% .721

Now, clearly Russell was the better rebounder but I think you have to say that Kareem was better in all other phases, especially if you just compare the first 13 seasons against one another. Russell was probably a superior defensive player but it's hard to really say since he really never faced the same quality of compatition at center on a nightly basis. Each were top 5 players IMO but I don't think you can say that one is head and shoulders above the other IMO. I do believe that Kareem was the best. In fact, I believe Kareem was the best ever but that's certainly debatable.

Remember, Kareem today, ranks 2nd All Time in games played, 1st in minutes played, 1st in FGs made, Attempts, 10th in FG%, 4th in Rebs, 1st in Pts Scored all time. He was pretty dominating in his time.

[JMS]

I was wondering where Robertson was. At least SOMEONE mentioned him. He might be the greatest basketball player ever. I mean, that stat as always made my jaw dropped. The man AVERAGED a triple double for five years.

Hello! McFly! That's ridiculous.

Oscar Robinson...

1 NBA Championship... with Karem

1 NBA MVP....

[ABQCOWBOY]

it wasn't like Kobe was some scrub and just along for the ride with Shaq

to not give him credit for those 3 rings is ridiculous.

I agree with this point of view. I believe that Shaq absolutely was the focal point of the Lakers in those championship years but I also believe that without Kobe, Shaq never wins those titles.

It's interesting to me because I see Shaq and Kobe just as I see Kareem and Magic. Magic was not the focal point of the championship Lakers teams in the 80s, Kareem was. Magic is remembered most but he was not the focal point. Without Magic, Kareem never wins those champoinships, just as Shaq never does without Kobe IMO.

[Bubble Screen]

Easily top 10. And before he's done, could even be top 5. He'll likely never surpass Mike, though.

[thebluefood]

Oscar Robinson...

1 NBA Championship... with Karem

1 NBA MVP....

That's right. I forgot basketball was an individual sport.

OH WAIT, THAT'S RIGHT! There are five players on each team.

You can't deny that Robertson was, individually, an incredible player. The man averaged a triple double for an entire season. Not even Magic or Larry could do that.

[frommd]

Michael had a horrible shot coming out of North Carolina. He had a 10 to 12 foot jumper but everything else was to the hole. Like Michael, Dr. J. developed his jumper as he got older but you have to remember, when Dr. J was playing, the three point shot was not a part of the NBA game. As far as out side shooters, Kobe was much better then either Michael or Dr. J coming into the league. Much, much better. As far as ball handling skills, he had great skills in this area. In fact, if we are just talking about ball skills, while in the air, he was better then either Mike or Kobe IMO. He could do things in the air that I've never seen another player do. He was really something else. It's a shame we did not see him in his first 5 seasons.

I agree with this, but, by the time he was winning titles, Jordan had a very good jump shot. I don't think Dr. J's was ever that good.

Also, Kobe's is the best of the bunch, but is also the reason I don't believe he will ever be as great as Jordan. He falls into the trap of settling for his jump shot too much.

Magic was not the focal point of the championship Lakers teams in the 80s, Kareem was. Magic is remembered most but he was not the focal point. Without Magic, Kareem never wins those champoinships, just as Shaq never does without Kobe IMO.

I think Kareem started out as the focal point, but, by the time they won in '85 Magic was becoming more the focal point. Also, rookie Magic was finals MVP after Kareem was injured and couldn't play in game six.

[JMS]

Bill played in an era where you only had 9 teams.

exagerating a little aren't you. In 69 Russel's last championship season there were 14 teams in the league.... Wilt's played only about 2 years longer than Russel.

The only 7 footer he really ever played against was Wilt.

Russel did play against 7 footers... but few were as athletic as Wilt or Karem.

He didn't dominate Wilt.

Russel won 2 College NBA Championships when Chamberland was playing College... 55-56

Russel Won 10 of his 11 NBA championships with Wilt Chamberlan in the League.

Russel and Chamberland faced off for 6 NBA Championships head to head.... Russel won 5 of them.

You want to know what Domination is? Domination is when a team takes all the best players in the entire league as the lakers did in 68, in order to beat you.... and you still beat them 2-3 years head to head. That's domination.

when Kareem played and when Bill Played. When Kareem played, he played in a golden age of big men IMO.

They actually played against each other... Their careers over lapped.. Kareem's...

I agree you could claim they were from differen Era's... But Karem had his best years as a franchises primary focus early in his career, around the same time Russel was still winning championships...

Russels last championship was in 69. Karem's first and only championship without Magic was in 71.

Now, clearly Russell was the better rebounder but I think you hve to say that Kareem was better in all other phases,

Russel was better leader, rebounder, and at assists.... I think Karem was a better scorer.... Least he played for a decade in his prime on teams with no shot at a championship... as their primary scorer. Still from a domanation stand point... Karem didn't dominate the NBA... He won 1 championship in his first 11 years in the league. That's not domination. That was Russel's Career. and he won what 11 championships out of 12 years?

[JMS]

I agree with this point of view. I believe that Shaq absolutely was the focal point of the Lakers in those championship years but I also believe that without Kobe, Shaq never wins those titles.

It's interesting to me because I see Shaq and Kobe just as I see Kareem and Magic. Magic was not the focal point of the championship Lakers teams in the 80s, Kareem was. Magic is remembered most but he was not the focal point. Without Magic, Kareem never wins those champoinships, just as Shaq never does without Kobe IMO.

My point is you don't consider Scottie Pipen to have best ever credentials because he won 5 nba championships with MJ..... MJ's the leader, MJ's the Focus of the defense, MJ's also caries the weight of the Offense... Even though MJ didn't win any championships without Scottie, MJ get's the credit because he was the man...

Same with Shaq and Kobie and their first 3 championships.... It doesn't take nearly as much skill and talent or ability to be the second banana, which Kobe clearly was on those teams....

In order to be considered in the top 10, Kobe needs one maybe two more championships... Then his six will mean something in composite....

[JMS]

That's right. I forgot basketball was an individual sport.

OH WAIT, THAT'S RIGHT! There are five players on each team.

You can't deny that Robertson was, individually, an incredible player. The man averaged a triple double for an entire season. Not even Magic or Larry could do that.

To be considered in the conversation of the best ever... You must have the ability to inspire your teammates to win... you must have the ability to make those around you better....You also have to have the drive to do whatever it takes to win. I think you also need multiple NBA championships as the leader of your team, because that's how high the bar has been set by those who have come before.. Russel, MJ, Magic, Bird, Duncan and maybe even Issaih had all those things.....

Oscar doesn't have those credits.... I don't think Kobe or Lebron has those credits either. Regardless of individual statistics.... It's relatively common for players who don't win championships to have great statistics.... That's not what defines the best...

Oscar was a great player. maybe one of the top 10 individual talents. I wouldn't put him in the top 10 all time... I wouldn't put Wilt in their either even though he was likely a bigger individual talent than Oscar.

I think Kobe needs another 1 or 2 championships to be meantioned

[frommd]

My point is you don't consider Scottie Pipen to have best ever credentials because he won 5 nba championships with MJ..... MJ's the leader, MJ's the Focus of the defense, MJ's also caries the weight of the Offense... Even though MJ didn't win any championships without Scottie, MJ get's the credit because he was the man...

I don't ever remember them taking MJ out in the last two minutes of a tight game and counting on Pippen to bring victory home.

[JMS]

I don't ever remember them taking MJ out in the last two minutes of a tight game and counting on Pippen to bring victory home.

So are you saying Shaq wasn't the MVP of the finals in 2000, 2001, and 2002? Because he was. It can't be argued he wasn't the lakers best, most dominant, and focal point player in those championship years. Not without denying history in favor of revisionism.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I agree with this, but, by the time he was winning titles, Jordan had a very good jump shot. I don't think Dr. J's was ever that good.

Also, Kobe's is the best of the bunch, but is also the reason I don't believe he will ever be as great as Jordan. He falls into the trap of settling for his jump shot too much.

I think Kareem started out as the focal point, but, by the time they won in '85 Magic was becoming more the focal point. Also, rookie Magic was finals MVP after Kareem was injured and couldn't play in game six.

It's true, Mike developed a very good jump shot by the time he was about half way into his career. As I said earlier, you have to remember that the 3pt play was not in play at the time so really, all the Doc needed was a 15 to 18 ft jumper and he had that. However, they didn't pay the Doc to shoot jump shots. At the time, Dr. J was the NBA. He was really one of a handful of players that was carrying the NBA at the time and they didn't want him standing around shooting jump shots. They wanted the Doc flying and throwing down jams or finger rolls to the hoop. I don't know that it's fair to say he didn't have a good jump shot. I think it's much more accurate to say that he didn't have the same kinds of opportunities to show that part of his game. JMO of course but it's coming from a guy who is a huge Carolina fan. I would love to say that Mike was head and shoulders above the Doc but I can't say that. Dr. J was one heck of a fine basketball player.

[ABQCOWBOY]

My point is you don't consider Scottie Pipen to have best ever credentials because he won 5 nba championships with MJ..... MJ's the leader, MJ's the Focus of the defense, MJ's also caries the weight of the Offense... Even though MJ didn't win any championships without Scottie, MJ get's the credit because he was the man...

Same with Shaq and Kobie and their first 3 championships.... It doesn't take nearly as much skill and talent or ability to be the second banana, which Kobe clearly was on those teams....

In order to be considered in the top 10, Kobe needs one maybe two more championships... Then his six will mean something in composite....

Kobe is already in the Top 10 IMO. He doesn't need to do anything more IMO.

[JMS]

Dr. J was one heck of a fine basketball player.

I agree with that... I also agreed he was the face of the NBA for a long time during the 70's. He was a very special talent.

[Farbod21]

1. MJ

2. Magic

3. Shaq

4. Bird

5. Kareem

6. Duncan

7. Wilt

8. Russell

9. Kobe

10. Oscar Robertson

[frommd]

So are you saying Shaq wasn't the MVP of the finals in 2000, 2001, and 2002? Because he was. It can't be argued he wasn't the lakers best, most dominant, and focal point player in those championship years. Not without denying history in favor of revisionism.

No, what I'm saying is the East was terrible during those runs. So, the real championship was won by getting out of the West. Bookend titles for the Spurs around the Lakers three-peat should help with that point. Now, the Lakers were not getting out of the West without some huge games by Kobe. Shaq did not dominate Duncan/Robinson like he did against the weak East centers.

[frommd]

It's true, Mike developed a very good jump shot by the time he was about half way into his career. As I said earlier, you have to remember that the 3pt play was not in play at the time so really, all the Doc needed was a 15 to 18 ft jumper and he had that. However, they didn't pay the Doc to shoot jump shots. At the time, Dr. J was the NBA. He was really one of a handful of players that was carrying the NBA at the time and they didn't want him standing around shooting jump shots. They wanted the Doc flying and throwing down jams or finger rolls to the hoop. I don't know that it's fair to say he didn't have a good jump shot. I think it's much more accurate to say that he didn't have the same kinds of opportunities to show that part of his game. JMO of course but it's coming from a guy who is a huge Carolina fan. I would love to say that Mike was head and shoulders above the Doc but I can't say that. Dr. J was one heck of a fine basketball player.

Again, not denying Dr. J was a great player. He revolutionized the high-flyer act. Just don't think his all-around game was as strong as Jordan or Kobe.

[JMS]

Again, not denying Dr. J was a great player. He revolutionized the high-flyer act. Just don't think his all-around game was as strong as Jordan or Kobe.

Actually Dr J arguable has better winning stats than Kobe.... As the primary guy he won 3 professional championships, more MVP's, More Scoring Titles. And Dr J never played with Shaq, although Moses Molone was pretty good.

Dr J. ( ABA before merger, and NBA)

3× Championships

3X Finals MVP

4× League MVP

3X Scoring Titles

Kobe Briant.

4× NBA Champion

1X NBA Finals MVP

1X League Most Valuable Player

2× NBA scoring champion

Coarse Kobe is still going. But if you go by what they've done so far... you could easily make the case Dr. J was the better player. I'm thinking it's funny you guys are going to believe I'm slamming Kobe here... What's funny is anybody would be insulted by coming in a close second to Dr. J...

Before MJ, Dr. J was proable the most dynamic, creative, and entertaining offensive player in league history.