What are your views on the Patriots.

[Riggo-toni]

Belichik is one of the best coaches in the NFL, no doubt. And Brady is the real deal. Smart move by Belichik a couple years back keeping 4 QBs on the roster when Brady was on the bubble. I kept using that as an example for us to keep Sage Rosenfels on the roster, but to no avail.

If we let Watson go, you guys should pick him up for a little insurance at RB.

By the way, Bleedblue, please feel free to stick around long after we play you this year. As you can see, we welcome respectful, non-smack opposing fans here with open arms

[bulldog]

The most promising factor for the Pats coming off the disappointing 2002 year is that Brady showed he was not a flash in the pan

When you have a franchise qb that can keep you in games you have a chance each year to make noise if the front office does a decent job of adding in complementary talent.

Seymour, Colvin and Law give the Pats three anchors on defense to build around for 2003.

On offense the line needs to get back to where it was in 2001. Ditto for the rushing game. Antowain Smith simply disappeared last year after pushing immediately for a big contract after a 1,000 yard Super Bowl season.

I give your front office guy Pioli (??) a lot of credit. As with Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore, he just keeps finding guys in the draft and value free agency that come in and contribute.

When you consider all the glamour #1 picks the Skins have walking around and yet sit year after year with 8-8 tye records you begin to have an appreciation for stability and quiet industry

[Flowtrain]

Art - since I know that roster comparisons on paper are your favorite activity, let's whip up a quick and dirty one for the Jets and Pats.

QB - Pennington v. Brady. Chad was the better QB last year, Brady has a year more experience. Pretty close call, but I'll take Pennington, especially since Brady struggled down the stretch in a couple games, most notably when he faced the Jets in the key AFCE Week 16 showdown, while Chad was flawless. Slight edge Jets.

WR - Brown, Patten, Branch v. Conway, Chrebet, Moss. I'll take Brown over Conway, in spite of Brown's health, and in spite his paltry 9 YPC last year. But Chrebet is a lock over Patten and his bad hands, and while Moss hasn't yet distinguished himself over Branch, I'll still take the lightning quick first rounder with 5 TDs (inc POs) and two prior years experience over the rookie with 2 TDs. Advantage Jets.

OL - I won't waste time here. Mawae, McKenzie, Fabini, Szott and (probabably Nutten) are far superior to the Pats troubled OL whose inability to run block last year cost them games, plain and simple. Advantage Jets.

RB - next.

TE - I'll give a slight edge to the Pats in depth and their TE receiving ability, but note that Becht is a better run blocker than anyone the Pats have. Do we care about TE anyway?

On to D...

DL - Again, no point in wasting time here. Abraham, Ellis, Ferguson, Robertson, McGlockton, Bryan Thomas, (probably Evans mid-season), and James Reed. Again, the Pats inability to stop the run cost them games. The position was bolstered through the draft, which will be helpful......in a couple years. By the way, you also state the Jets lost Martin on the DL. The player you're referring to was a Patriot in 2002 and they were the team that lost him. Advantage Jets.

LB - The Pats have no 3 starting LBs that compare with Jones and Pro Bowlers Cowart and Lewis as a unit. What they do have is better depth, which is mandatory considering the 3-4 and their LB's difficulty staying healthy. Push.

DB - No argument here. Advantage Pats.

So that on paper analysis doesn't look too favorable for the Pats, but what about other factors?

As for Jets losses, even without Randy Thomas, the Jets OL is still better. Even swapping Coles for Conway, the Jets WRs are still better. Even with losing Morton, the Jets return game with Moss and Westhoff is still better.

It's easy to say both teams were 9-7 and the Pats got better while the Jets got worse - that's the type of analysis we'd expect from the Peter Kings of the world. But the causes for the Jets 1-4 start included Vinny, an injured Curtis, a banged up OL, and 6 new starters on D. These issues shouldn't repeat in 2003. The Pats, OTOH, lost games due to a poor run game and a poor run defense, yet these spots don't look to be much better this year. The improvements made by the LB and DB obsessive Belichick were made with a blind eye for the team's real weaknesses.

The Pats are given deference due to their SB win which I can understand. I may even be willing to overlook the fact that, if not for the TUCK rule, they lose in the 2nd round. But let's be honest, the team was called a fluke precisely due to their 19th ranked O and 24th ranked D in 2001, and they had the chance to disprove that label in 2002. What happened? They missed the playoffs.

When we talk about a head-to-head comparison, we'd be remiss if we didn't discuss the Week 16 game up in NE with the entire division swinging in the balance. Here, the Pats were beaten handily by the Jets in a matter not accurately reflected by the 30-17 score -- and Belichick, for all his coaching genius, was severly outcoached by Herm, Cottrell, Hackett when it mattered most. As much as I may try, I simply can't ignore the most recent indicator the teams relative strengths.

The AFCE is stacked tight up and down and the Jets and Pats are definitely comparable teams and in the same ballpark. But I'll take the one that had the fortitude and mettle to seize the division title over the one that faltered and squandered this opportunity away.

[Art]

Flow,

You are the one, not me, who decided to declare the glaring needs of the Pats, not me, so, this seems to be a favorite past time you enjoy as well, yes?

I don't need or want to get into a breakdown with you on the positional values of the Jets and Pats, but, let me give you a couple of broad strokes.

Chad was better than Brady last year, but, Brady was pretty good, and a factor you didn't weigh was, Brady actually has won it all, and Chad hasn't. Given the extra experience and PROVEN mettle as a winner, not to mention having proven he can still play well even as defenses adapt to his game from one year to the next, the advantage isn't yours yet. Could be after this year, but Chad has to prove he can continue to perform first. Even then, if I could pick one guy to win a Super Bowl for me, I'd pick the one guy who has first.

Your thoughts on receiver show just how completely daft you are when it comes to this. I'd take Brown now over Conway. Brown's been a superior player the last three seasons and he was the superior player last year. I'd take Patten over Chrebet simply on the strength of Patten being better than Chrebet last year. And, I do know Chrebet caught a lot of touchdowns. But, I wonder how much of that was because Coles was getting rolled coverage? Branch in his rookie year surpassed Moss in both his years. Trust me, you are betting on Moss's possible talent to shine through, but, Branch already seems ahead of him. Sorry there guy, but you don't have the advantage at receiver.

You do have the running back advantage. You may have the offensive line advantage, but, please, guy, your offensive line didn't open up the running game last year either and your offensive line is worse now than it was, so, let's not pretend you are global killers or something.

You do have the advantage on the defensive line. No doubt, but the Pats are only running three guys so they don't need the depth. For the same reason I'll take their backers. You're right on the defensive backs. And, please, let's not forget their kicker.

As for coaching, let me assure you everyone on this board will take Belichek and his Super Bowl ring over Herm and his Game 16, 2002 victory. I know you won't. But, you're a special guy.

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by Flowtrain

Art - since I know that roster comparisons on paper are your favorite activity, let's whip up a quick and dirty one for the Jets and Pats.

QB - Pennington v. Brady. Chad was the better QB last year, Brady has a year more experience. Pretty close call, but I'll take Pennington, especially since Brady struggled down the stretch in a couple games, most notably when he faced the Jets in the key AFCE Week 16 showdown, while Chad was flawless. Slight edge Jets.

WR - Brown, Patten, Branch v. Conway, Chrebet, Moss. I'll take Brown over Conway, in spite of Brown's health, and in spite his paltry 9 YPC last year. But Chrebet is a lock over Patten and his bad hands, and while Moss hasn't yet distinguished himself over Branch, I'll still take the lightning quick first rounder with 5 TDs (inc POs) and two prior years experience over the rookie with 2 TDs. Advantage Jets.

OL - I won't waste time here. Mawae, McKenzie, Fabini, Szott and (probabably Nutten) are far superior to the Pats troubled OL whose inability to run block last year cost them games, plain and simple. Advantage Jets.

TE - I'll give a slight edge to the Pats in depth and their TE receiving ability, but note that Becht is a better run blocker than anyone the Pats have. Do we care about TE anyway?

On to D...

DL - Again, no point in wasting time here. Abraham, Ellis, Ferguson, Robertson, McGlockton, Bryan Thomas, (probably Evans mid-season), and James Reed. Again, the Pats inability to stop the run cost them games. The position was bolstered through the draft, which will be helpful......in a couple years. By the way, you also state the Jets lost Martin on the DL. The player you're referring to was a Patriot in 2002 and they were the team that lost him. Advantage Jets.

LB - The Pats have no 3 starting LBs that compare with Jones and Pro Bowlers Cowart and Lewis as a unit. What they do have is better depth, which is mandatory considering the 3-4 and their LB's difficulty staying healthy. Push.

DB - No argument here. Advantage Pats.

So that on paper analysis doesn't look too favorable for the Pats, but what about other factors?

As for Jets losses, even without Randy Thomas, the Jets OL is still better. Even swapping Coles for Conway, the Jets WRs are still better. Even with losing Morton, the Jets return game with Moss and Westhoff is still better.

It's easy to say both teams were 9-7 and the Pats got better while the Jets got worse - that's the type of analysis we'd expect from the Peter Kings of the world. But the causes for the Jets 1-4 start included Vinny, an injured Curtis, a banged up OL, and 6 new starters on D. These issues shouldn't repeat in 2003. The Pats, OTOH, lost games due to a poor run game and a poor run defense, yet these spots don't look to be much better this year. The improvements made by the LB and DB obsessive Belichick were made with a blind eye for the team's real weaknesses.

The Pats are given deference due to their SB win which I can understand. I may even be willing to overlook the fact that, if not for the TUCK rule, they lose in the 2nd round. But let's be honest, the team was called a fluke precisely due to their 19th ranked O and 24th ranked D in 2001, and they had the chance to disprove that label in 2002. What happened? They missed the playoffs.

When we talk about a head-to-head comparison, we'd be remiss if we didn't discuss the Week 16 game up in NE with the entire division swinging in the balance. Here, the Pats were beaten handily by the Jets in a matter not accurately reflected by the 30-17 score -- and Belichick, for all his coaching genius, was severly outcoached by Herm, Cottrell, Hackett when it mattered most. As much as I may try, I simply can't ignore the most recent indicator the teams relative strengths.

The AFCE is stacked tight up and down and the Jets and Pats are definitely comparable teams and in the same ballpark. But I'll take the one that had the fortitude and mettle to seize the division title over the one that faltered and squandered this opportunity away.

:rotflmao:

I'm suprised you aren't listing the ability to walk on water as one of Peningtons qualitys. :laugh:

Brady is every bit as accurate as penington, has a stronger arm, and has PROVEN he can win the big games. The idea that Penington is somehow better is beyond silly. Those green glasses are affecting your ability to think clearly. :doh:

[Flowtrain]

Originally posted by Art

I'd take Patten over Chrebet simply on the strength of Patten being better than Chrebet last year. And, I do know Chrebet caught a lot of touchdowns. But, I wonder how much of that was because Coles was getting rolled coverage?

This statement nearly made me fall out of my chair. Art, please, my friend, I may need to ask you to stick to the Skins about which you're quite knowledgeable. The Pats are clearly not your specialty.

At Jetsinsider.com we have these debates regularly - and even the most die-hard Pats fans will concede Chrebet over Patten. Well, I take that back - I'm sure you can find a couple delusional fans who will say anything. Patten is noted for having key drops in the most critical situations. He's an inconsistent #3 WR whose been forced into the #2 role and has disappointed.

I understand that you pulled up their stats and saw that Patten's appeared better than Chrebet's for one season. What you didn't do was notice that the Pats threw the ball 600 something times to the Jets 400 something attempts. And importantly, those clutch situations in which Patten has struggled, have through the years been Chrebet's trademark. Of all the WRs around, there are few who do more things that don't get reflected in the stats sheet than Chrebet - clutch hands, blocking, heart, etc.

Let's throw in the 9 TDs (to Pattens 5) which ranked him 5th in the NFL. This was due to "rolled" coverage to Coles? Coles was not a red zone threat last year and never saw doubles. Chrebet's TDs generally came about after torching nickel backs while in the slot with savvy route-running.

I could go on and on with this one - but I won't. We'll let you off the hook here and I'll also leave the rest of your post alone. Let's just stick to the Skins next time.

[AJWatson3]

i believe the Pats have as good a shot as any AFC team this year. all they need to do is bench Antoine Smith and give the ball to Kevin Faulk. they have a good young QB, some good WR's, a solid OL, and a defense that will rebound BIG TIME this year. i think they are the team to beat in the AFC East( followed by MIA, and then i can't decide between NYJ and BUF as they both lost key components of their offenses; BUF did vastly improve their D though...).

they have added some much needed speed to the D, finally have a pass-rushing LB in Colvin, and their young DL keeps getting better. they are just going to get better.

this season i see 9-7 or 10-6, because they do play in a tough division.

--------------------------------

i'll give some of my thought from training camp today. will be there from 5pm-630pm.... rain or shine!

[bleedblue]

No offence or anything but how do you say that Brady is worse than Chad Pennington.

[Flowtrain]

Originally posted by bleedblue

No offence or anything but how do you say that Brady is worse than Chad Pennington.

Chad really had only one bad game last year.

However, Brady turned in a number of dismal performances throughout 2002 that hurt his team. Here are a couple highlights (or lowlights).

Green Bay: 183 yards on 44 attempts, 3 INT, 1 TD, 2 fumbles ---- LOSS

Denver: 130 yards on 29 attempts ---- LOSS

Oakland: 172 yards on 30 attempts, 0 TDs, fumble ---- LOSS

Tennessee: 134 yards on 29 attempts, 1 INT, 0 TD, fumble ---- LOSS

NY Jets: 137 yards on 37 attempts, 1 INT, 1 TD ---- LOSS

Pennington didn't have games like this in 2002. He had one stinker, after he had led the team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Don't get me wrong - I think Brady is an excellent QB. He had a great performance in 2001, and in 2002, he was solid. I especially like his poise late in close games - that's a great trait. I also think he did well for himself in spite of having poor WRs and a weak running game.

But in 2002, Pennington was simply more important to his team's success. He made far fewer mistakes and played with more consistency. He also was sparkling when he faced Brady head-to-head in NE, while Brady was terrible. It's a close race and while Brady is more accomplished on the whole, I'll go with the hot hand. Both QBs look like they'll solidly anchor their teams for some time in the AFCE.

[PCS]

Yes. But arguabley Brady was of equal importance to his team in 2001. Coincidentally his first season as a starter. And with a ring at the end of the season. Now, using the same reasoning, I could easily say hey, Brady had the hot hand in 2001 so he'll just better than....... Pennington pulls out another great season and Brady falters, I'll go along with it. Right now, Brady out of the 2.