Jason Campbell's career win-loss record is 19-35

[armstrong001]

Okay, find me 4 Hall of Fame caliber defensive players and we'll talk. And then, the NFL circa 2010 is WAY different from the NFL circa even 2002. Honestly, this is the argument that pisses me off the most because it is the least grounded in reality. It assumes that the "great defense/bad offense" model still works (granted, the Steelers followed that model in 08 but they had a legit franchise QB who could win games late, the offense got clicking in the playoffs when they FINALLY got healthy, and their defense compared statistically to the 2000 Ravens).

This is an argument that is rooted in some kind of 80s and 90s nostalgia where it was all 4 yards and a cloud of dust (which isn't true anyway) and where you *could* win games with a dominant line and running game + defense. Those days are gone. You need a QB who can not only be statistically dominant, he can win games for you even when he isn't statistically dominant. 5 4Q comebacks in 2008, including the Super Bowl winning drive. And this in a DOWN year for him.

I'm so sorry to have pissed you off. I'll try not to do this in the future.

So, a great defense and a mediocre offense can't get it done in "today's" NFL? The 2009 jets beg to differ. 17th of offense and 1st on defense, got to the dorstep of the Superbowl (which is a hell of a lot closer than we've been for years). Now that they've got a successful defense, they'll start building the offense to get better. We can do the same thing.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Corey Dillon in a monster year for the last SB, Troy Brown with over 100 catches and 1000 yards in the first SB),

What has he done since? Was a pure possession WR the year after that, and a backup from then on.

Manning (With Wayne, Clark, Harrison, Marshall Faulk early, Edferrin James in the middle, and Joseph Addai late)

Faulk played only one season with the Colts, and James lost a bunch of seasons to injury. The Colts won the SB the first year without him.

Addai has been terrible the past two years, and wasn't that great his first year.

I'll give you Harrison, but Wayne imo isn't a superstar WR on the level of Moss/Fitz/the Johnsons. How much of that is how good he is, and how much of that is playing with Peyton Manning in that offense? Depends on how predisposed you are to thinking that QB is some kind of "dependent" position (never mind that experts generally agree that WR is the most dependent position of all)

, Rivers (With Gates, LT, and recently Vincent Jackson),

Vincent Jackson is a nice WR - but up till now, he hasn't been special.

and Brees (Colston and Meachem are studs, regardless of if you'd never heard of them before)

So........you'd rather think Drew Brees's success is a product of a 7th round WR from Hosftra, rather than the other way around? Not saying Colston isn't a good player, but you're really putting the cart before the horse here.

Meachem a stud? He's barely putting up solid #2 numbers in one of the most high-powered offenses in football. Come ON.

Interestingly, the years the Patriots won the SB, their scoring defenses were ranked 6th in 2001, 1st in 2003, and 2nd in 2004. In 2002 and 2005? They ranked 17th. So those supposedly worst offensive units to win Superbowls had a lot of help on the defensive side of the ball. The years they didn't get the help, they didn't win.

Nobody says you don't need a great defense - but do you think that you could stick an average QB there and expect to win?

Oh wait, we tried that, and it sure worked out well for us!

So, a great defense and a mediocre offense can't get it done in "today's" NFL? The 2009 jets beg to differ. 17th of offense and 1st on defense, got to the dorstep of the Superbowl (which is a hell of a lot closer than we've been for years). Now that they've got a successful defense, they'll start building the offense to get better. We can do the same thing.

Should have seen this one coming. First off, the Jets have a QB of the future, that's one difference. Secondly, the Jets needed the Colts to throw the game, as well as a LOT of help, just to MAKE the playoffs.

If Sanchez doesn't improve, the Jets are in a world of trouble. A lot of AFC contenders had down years - Pittsburgh, Miami, Tennessee. (the latter two of which, incidentally, got stoned in the playoffs because they didn't have a QB that could make plays, meanwhile, Sanchez DID make plays in the playoffs.)

[Mahons21]

I believe you're correct.

Specifically I have one play in my head that shows the beautiful accuracy of Collins and the determination of Moss.

"Collins drops back to pass, he hurls it deep! ...Intercepted... that's a touchdown folks. This is getting ugly"

"Yea, It looked like Santana Moss gave up on the route halfway through"

Collins: Look Extremeskins! Even with a bad o-line I'm GOOD!

-So you found a quote somewhere that showed Moss gave up on one route? And you somehow think that shows Moss hasn't been a good receiver without Campbell? Wow, dude, wow.

-Here's 2 plays... On MNF against our Rivals. With 3 minutes left in the game... Moss catches 2 bombs to win 14-13. See how easy it is to use one play to prove a point?

-If you hadn't noticed Moss caught deep balls as soon as Collins replaced Campbell, Moss caught deep balls when Mark was the QB, Moss caught deep balls when he was a NYJ, but Moss hasn't really caught many deep balls with Jason "I overthrow a post route by 10 yards" Campbell. Its a pretty obvious trend maybe you haven't noticed it.

Moss #'s since he's been a Redskin (giving Jason the bomb Todd threw to him this year):

W/ Campbell at QB for 51 games: Moss averaged 54.4 ypg, and .2 TD's

W/ Anyone but Campbell at QB for 29 games: Moss averaged 82.3 ypg, and .55 TD's.

-Over the Course of a season that would be 460 more yards, and 5 more TD's.

-And you've come to the conclusion that it can't be Campbell's fault? Read Kiper's new mock draft, receivers aren't highly touted prospects because they are dependent on there QB, NOT the other way around.

[AKM311]

Anyone ever wonder why Brees never won anything before this year?

He was great before this year as well.

[Mahons21]

Anyone ever wonder why Brees never won anything before this year?

He was great before this year as well.

-Why, because there defense can create turnovers?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

-So you found a quote somewhere that showed Moss gave up on one route? And you somehow think that shows Moss hasn't been a good receiver without Campbell? Wow, dude, wow.

-Here's 2 plays... On MNF against our Rivals. With 3 minutes left in the game... Moss catches 2 bombs to win 14-13. See how easy it is to use one play to prove a point?

-If you hadn't noticed Moss caught deep balls as soon as Collins replaced Campbell, Moss caught deep balls when Mark was the QB, Moss caught deep balls when he was a NYJ, but Moss hasn't really caught many deep balls with Jason "I overthrow a post route by 10 yards" Campbell. Its a pretty obvious trend maybe you haven't noticed it.

Moss #'s since he's been a Redskin (giving Jason the bomb Todd threw to him this year):

W/ Campbell at QB for 51 games: Moss averaged 54.4 ypg, and .2 TD's

W/ Anyone but Campbell at QB for 29 games: Moss averaged 82.3 ypg, and .55 TD's.

-Over the Course of a season that would be 460 more yards, and 5 more TD's.

-And you've come to the conclusion that it can't be Campbell's fault? Read Kiper's new mock draft, receivers aren't highly touted prospects because they are dependent on there QB, NOT the other way around.

since 2007, heres campbell throwing the deep ball (31+ yards), which is what santana moss is best at:

07: 5/24 - 0 TD 2 INTs (and one of these was that hilarious dive bomb pass that ARE caught in the miami game with 0:00 on the clock)

08: 3/16 - 1 TD 2 INTs

09: 1/12 - 1 TD 1 INT

combined, 9/52 2 TD 5 INTs

shocking that santana moss had his best season of his career when we had a QB that could throw an accurate deep ball.

[Passizle]

Seriously? You want to go there?

Amazing how you choose to make the stats fit your agenda. What you just typed is pure bull**** that reeks so bad a dog would leave the room. You want to put JC's numbers in 13 games up against Collins numbers in 3.5 games and brag that JC had more yards, TD's, and ONLY 2.3% better completion percentage??? That is not just disingenuous, that is close to the most pathetic display of JC worship I've ever seen.

Let me break this down for your pathetic, feeble little mind:

In 3.5 games, (that is rough 1/4 the amount of games that JC played in)Todd Collins put up 888 yards. That is an average of 253.7 yards (222 if you want to round up to 4 games). Collins also through five TD's, or 1.43 per game (1.25 if you want to round up to calling it a complete four games).

In 13 games, JC put up 2,700 yards. That is an average of 207.7 yards per game. JC threw 12 TD's in 13 games, or .92 per game.

So, explain to me how your boy put up more yards and TD's in 2007 than TC if you break it down by game average, which is the only legitimate thing you can do if you want to make the comparison given the unproportionate amount of time JC spent behind center compare to Collins? And, save your bull ****, pulling crap out of your ass that you usually do. THIS is a true yards comparison; you will not in a football reality be able to prove other wise.

And, a 2.3 difference in completion percentage is HUGE for a stat line, especially in a QB's completion rate. You know this, as does any one else who knows remotely anything about the game of football. IT is amazing how pathetic you've squirmed here to try and knock down the career back-up that showed your boy for what he is: a mediocre on his best day back-up QB.

Wrongo... read back a few posts. We are comparing the 0-4 slide to the 4-0 rip. Do try and keep up.. will ya? Do you look like an asshat now? Yup. Pretty much.

[Taylor 36]

Wrongo... read back a few posts. We are comparing the 0-4 slide to the 4-0 rip. Do try and keep up.. will ya? Do you look like an asshat now? Yup. Pretty much.

Nixce try at diverting and running as usual. Should have known you would try and change anything you could to slip out of it. And, asshat, classy. Very classy for you.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Nixce try at diverting and running as usual. Should have known you would try and change anything you could to slip out of it. And, asshat, classy. Very classy for you.

passizle just needs to say:

todd collins played much better football than jason campbell and the whole team played better as a cause and effect, resulting in wins instead of losses.

we could easily just move on from there.

i also find it funny that he thinks campbells numbers were so similar. i guess i missed when campbell won offensive player of the month for november?

[wdcredskins]

Interestingly, the years the Patriots won the SB, their scoring defenses were ranked 6th in 2001, 1st in 2003, and 2nd in 2004. In 2002 and 2005? They ranked 17th. So those supposedly worst offensive units to win Superbowls had a lot of help on the defensive side of the ball. The years they didn't get the help, they didn't win.

and they won the super bowl not because they had a bad offense and a historic defense like the ravens.

they won cause they had a great defense and offense.

2001 offense ranked 6th

2003 offense ranked 12th

2004 offense ranked 4th

what's amazing is that brady took the offense to those rankings with nobody. no name receivers. that is what u shuold be drooling over.

and since you didnt mention how the offense did in 2002 and 2005 again with no names on offense, brady led the offense to 10th in 2002 and 10th in 2005.

so as you can see, the offense has been more consistent than the defense.

[Passizle]

Nixce try at diverting and running as usual. Should have known you would try and change anything you could to slip out of it. And, asshat, classy. Very classy for you.

Just following your lead T36... I guess you suffer from short term memory loss?

Let me break this down for your pathetic, feeble little mind

Or this...

IT is amazing how pathetic you've squirmed here to try and knock down the career back-up that showed your boy for what he is: a mediocre on his best day back-up QB.

You jumped the gun and attempted a flame post, rather than digest what was actually written. You were tigger happy, looking for a fight, and failed as usual. Had you bothered to read... or better yet, comprehend what was being discussed, you may have realized that the entire comparison was the 0-4 slide, vs the 4-0 run in 2007. Try and look up those numbers if your man enough, and then attempt to flame. JC had more TD's, more yards, slightly less comp% (FWIW, a 2.3 decrease is not night and day. For comparison, all TC had to do was have two less completions to bring his comp% t0 61.9% [thats 2 percentage points for the simple minded]... so spare me with your hyperbole about the difference with percentages).

So yeah... "asshat" fits in this case. Classy or not. Do you disagree?

[Passizle]

passizle just needs to say:

todd collins played much better football than jason campbell and the whole team played better as a cause and effect, resulting in wins instead of losses.

we could easily just move on from there.

i also find it funny that he thinks campbells numbers were so similar. i guess i missed when campbell won offensive player of the month for november?

He did not. He played slightly better at the QB position and was more efficient overall. The defense did a complete 180. Was this caused by a QB switch? Its definitley possile, but not probable.

[PCS]

Gee. Reading the last page or two and what a surprise to see one of these threads go in that direction. Getting old. Very old.