Afghan Men Struggle With Sexual Identity, Study Finds

[Prosperity]

yup and without a prosperous Athens they all got taken over by the Macedons, and then the Romans

[Hunter44]

Doesn't everyone toss a coin?

So was it heads or tails for you this morning??

[GhostofSparta]

So was it heads or tails for you this morning??

Well those of us who are smart use a 2-headed coin :pfft:

[codeorama]

yup and without a prosperous Athens they all got taken over by the Macedons, and then the Romans

Sparta was not taken over by Phillip II, as well as Alexander the Great, they were left alone, the macedonians didn't think it was worth the risk/effort to bother with them. The Spartans fell when they finally started trying to expand rather than keeping to themselves like they always had... Sparta kicked Athen's ass in the Peloponnesian war and that left Athens and their allies weakened and Phillip II swept in and conquered them.

[nonniey]

Sparta was not taken over by Phillip II, as well as Alexander the Great, they were left alone, the macedonians didn't think it was worth the risk/effort to bother with them. The Spartans fell when they finally started trying to expand rather than keeping to themselves like they always had... Sparta kicked Athen's ass in the Peloponnesian war and that left Athens and their allies weakened and Phillip II swept in and conquered them.

I'd hardly say they kicked Athens ass as the war left Sparta weakened as well. Much like saying France kicked Germany's ass in WWI.

[stupidmorals]

In Sparta, man on boy love was just part of their education system.

Or near enough, anyway.

Of course, Sparta also had one of the most liberated female populations in the world, at the time. Much more so than even Athens. More so, I suspect, than in the Pashtun culture in Afghanistan today.

[Ghost of]

seems like that's par for the course as far as hyper-masculine society's go

see: Sparta

I was going to say that. The more I read on classical mythology and how much is inherited from the Near East, some of the practices (SOME, the Roman and Greek societies were far more liberal in other respects) of the "Muslim world" actually strike a familiar chord. One of the basic ones is women covering their head with a veil and not making eye contact with a man (at least the higher class, proper women in ancient Greece) and basically being invisible in many respects in society.

I think when women are shunned from every aspect of society except the home, you see the development of homoerotic art and standards and actual homosexual practice.

I've also read how the sexual abuse of boys has led to an ingrained "rage" at the world for the abuse (however it's justified in the culture) and this leads young men much more easily into jihadism.

BTW, this isn't just Pashtun. Arafat was a known boy-lover (ephebophile not necessarily pre-pubescents) and this is fairly common in the Arab world (perhaps not as common as among the Pashtuns) and beyond the Arab world from some things I've both read and encountered personally.

[Ghost of]

homosexuality was frowned upon in Athens, especially with boys.

Athens roxorz

Um, not really, man. I mean, basically, it's the homosexuality between equals that was frowned upon.

Pederasty (yes, even in Athens) was the way society was organized. I'm reading some stuff for school now and I always had it a bit confused as to how widespread it was---it wasn't gay sex between equals that was encouraged in Athens BUT pederasty was HUGE.

It IS true that most boys and most teenage cupbearers at symposia did not submit to anal intercourse, from what we can tell (and that would have been a fairly bad choice socially) but they did engage in other forms of sexual activity with adult males in their 20s.

I like Athens and all, especially compared to Sparta's culture of murder-of-helots for initiation and radical communism, but they were big-time boy lovers. Men in their twenties literally only had access to prostitutes and boys. You didn't get married until 30, provided you lived that long.

[Prosperity]

I was going to say that. The more I read on classical mythology and how much is inherited from the Near East, some of the practices (SOME, the Roman and Greek societies were far more liberal in other respects) of the "Muslim world" actually strike a familiar chord. One of the basic ones is women covering their head with a veil and not making eye contact with a man (at least the higher class, proper women in ancient Greece) and basically being invisible in many respects in society.

I think when women are shunned from every aspect of society except the home, you see the development of homoerotic art and standards and actual homosexual practice.

I've also read how the sexual abuse of boys has led to an ingrained "rage" at the world for the abuse (however it's justified in the culture) and this leads young men much more easily into jihadism.

BTW, this isn't just Pashtun. Arafat was a known boy-lover (ephebophile not necessarily pre-pubescents) and this is fairly common in the Arab world (perhaps not as common as among the Pashtuns) and beyond the Arab world from some things I've both read and encountered personally.

I don't think the Greeks or Romans "inherited" pedarasty from anyone, I think it's just a natural result of the bolded section of your quote. Societies that are completely dominated by men will lead to a lot of homosexuality. This was true for ancient societies and for present day ones of today that continue to be that way. I've read quiet a few articles talking about how prevalent yet hushed, homosexuality is in the Middle East (especially Gulf Arab countries). I figure it's not that much unlike prison, except that instead brick walls, it's walls of social norms.

As for the Greeks, I don't particularly care whether Athens was more or less homosexual than Sparta. But I will say that Socrates and Plato were probably the only two thinkers of that age that pushed forward feminism (especially Plato) and admonished homosexuality.

[Ghost of]

Prosperity (liberty, equality lol) I'm not saying the Greeks inherited pederasty from the Near east, I'm saying that they certainly got some myths from the Near East, some religious cults and that I thought it was interesting how there is this circle of cultural diffusion and inheritance.

I am NOT saying pederasty was a Near Eastern practice, only setting up a remark that actually lent credence to the idea that some practices we now abhor (or at least feel are destructive) might actually have come from the civilization we tend to respect the most. I'm not making a comment specifically on pederasty only seeing parallels and how connected things are...

[CRobi21]

So that's why they're so pissed off all the time.

[Prosperity]

Prosperity (liberty, equality lol) I'm not saying the Greeks inherited pederasty from the Near east, I'm saying that they certainly got some myths from the Near East, some religious cults and that I thought it was interesting how there is this circle of cultural diffusion and inheritance.

I am NOT saying pederasty was a Near Eastern practice, only setting up a remark that actually lent credence to the idea that some practices we now abhor (or at least feel are destructive) might actually have come from the civilization we tend to respect the most. I'm not making a comment specifically on pederasty only seeing parallels and how connected things are...

oh sorry I misunderstood you, makes more sense now

[Ryman of the North]

So that's why they're so pissed off all the time.

You would be pissed too if everyone was always trying to put it in your bum

[Ryman of the North]

Homosexuality was far more prevalent in the ancient world than it is now. it was considered normal in most cultures.

[Vicious]

I don't have a problem with such a choice, but I do believe it's a choice. :2cents:

Gays get to choose but Women don't.

Man I love Christianity.

[Vicious]

It's nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

[ardowling]

Its not just A-Stan, in Iraq there was a local saying "women are for babies and men are for fun" and I'm quite sure when they said fun they were not talking about basketball. And I'm not even going to mention what was caught on the big eye camera scanning the local town's.

[Vicious]

ever see the one of the guy ****ing the goat? ahahahahaha

[DeanCollins]

only nuclear fission can help these sick people :evilg:

[Prosperity]

[HighOnHendrix]

Gays get to choose but Women don't.

Man I love Christianity.

Taking another human life is a choice that is always hard to justify. There are always exceptions to every rule, but for the most part...

I disagree completely. I just don't see how anyone would choose that path given the obstacles and isolation it often presents.

But that's for another thread.

You could say the same for people who cheat on their spouses and have children out of wedlock because of it, like John Edwards. Then again, the stigma against both situations is becoming less all the time.

I assume you woke up this morning and made a choice to be straight.

No, but I was shunned by girls when I was a teen, plus I was shy. So I could have easily made the choice to relieve the sexual tensions we all feel at that age with other males. I chose not to go down that path. It wasn't this morning, but it was a choice. Some people probably make it unconsciously, but my opinion is that we all do.

[Siven]

No, but I was shunned by girls when I was a teen, plus I was shy. So I could have easily made the choice to relieve the sexual tensions we all feel at that age with other males. I chose not to go down that path. It wasn't this morning, but it was a choice. Some people probably make it unconsciously, but my opinion is that we all do.

Sorry, bull****. You didn't make a choice. Certainly you can be conditioned one way or another to increase the likelihood that you go one way or another as sexuality is a sliding scale. For some people that scale slides more than others. I was shunned by girls when I was a teen, THEN, went to an all-boys high school and I was 17 when I finally kissed a girl and NEVER did it happen across my mind that "Hmm, maybe I should be gay because its not working out with girls."

Read that again and you'll see how ****ing ridiculous a statement like that is.

How would "choosing" to be gay relieve your sexual tensions? Then you just have the problem of probably being shunned by boys for the same reasons you were shunned by girls - because you were boring and awkward or not cute or whatever bull**** girls at that age think of.

I have quite a few gay friends and they've all told me that they just know. It was never a choice for them. My friend Ryan knew when he was even a young child that he wasn't like other boys his age and he just KNEW that he was gay without even really knowing what being gay meant.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

You could say the same for people who cheat on their spouses and have children out of wedlock because of it, like John Edwards. Then again, the stigma against both situations is becoming less all the time.

Not quite. One is taking responsibility and being accountable for wronging someone you made a commitment to. The other is out of your control.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Those push ups and jumping jacks were hilarious!!!

[Prosperity]

The only two options aren't people are born gay and that's that, and, people choose to be gay and that's that. I think this article shows that some homosexuality develops because of social forces and not at birth, at the same time I don't think it's a choice. I consider it similar to gender roles. People don't choose to be feminine and masculine, those gender traits are socialized in them (though there are some biological components too). Also, just because there is pretty good evidence that homosexuality can be a socialized trait doesn't mean that there aren't natural tendencies for particular individuals towards one direction or another.