Statiscal Breakdown Of 2009 O-line, player by player

[veteranskinsfan]

Looking for Number Four- thanks for sharing the offensive stats with us. Regardless of who generated them and regardless of their validity, it is useful to view them here. We have a long number of months ahead of us before football takes off again.

[grego]

Doesn't look good, if you blindly believe some random guy's interpretation of games.

Fortunately, I watched those games (even re-watched some) and am able to draw my own conclusions.

The OL wasn't too good. The QB made them even worse. The coach was the pits. If you can't or are unwilling to make a defense pay for constricting the field, if you struggle to pick up blitzes, if you can't make quick decisions, you better have one hellacious OL to make up for it.

Think having a hesitant, indecisive player at QB that struggles to read defenses makes the OL's job a bit harder?

i'm not saying campbell can dissect a D, or that he's not guilty of holding the ball at times, but i've also seen stats about his sacks and the time from snap to sack. campbell had, on average, 2.3 seconds (something very close to that- its on this site somewhere). rodgers and roethlisberger, who both got sacked more, had about half a second and a second more, respectively.

sure, i'd like to see him more mobile (i dont think he is very mobile), and have a quicker release (its gotten better) and dissect D's like peyon manning (he actually has a good completion % vs a blitz, to his credit). but the numbers reflect what i saw- campbell didnt have much time to do much of anything, and he's not a Romo sits to pee type who can run around a make plays. he needs a decent line to succeed. but his line was definitely nowhere near decent.

[Jeff in D.C.]

Good thread LFNF, it's a good way of seeing the statistical impact of each of the O-linemen.

We've all known that Heyer can't play, and I trust that Shanny will weed out the rest of the linemen who he doesn't think fit into his system. Someone on another thread suggested signing Ben Hamilton since the Broncos have said they won't be re-signing him. I think this would be a good move as he would be a big upgrade over Rabach.

[TheItalianStallion]

The OL wasn't too good. The QB made them even worse. The coach was the pits. If you can't or are unwilling to make a defense pay for constricting the field, if you struggle to pick up blitzes, if you can't make quick decisions, you better have one hellacious OL to make up for it.

Not only do I disagree, but I actually think the opposite: while it's true that the above applied to JC in prior years, this year I saw plays where he got the ball out quick far more often than I saw him fail to see the blitz, and I felt that there were more examples of him making the Oline better (1st Dallas game) than of him making the Oline worse (3 or so plays in the 2nd Dallas game). There's a reason why he was only sacked once in the 1st Dallas game, and it ain't that the Oline stepped up.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I just think you can't overlook the aubidle/hot route thing.

I watched every Vikings game this season, and I can't remember a SINGLE play when Favre didn't step up to his lineman and point out a blitzer to them, or call out to his receivers for a hot route. This isn't a full out audible (changing the whole play) but rather just a heads up to one or two guys (Changing one or two assignments.)

In fact, I lied. I did see Favre fail to do this at times. It was during the Carolina game after Childress *****ed him out for doing it too much. Consequently, he was abused like a 10$ hooker during that game.

In my opinion, defenses are too fast and too smart in this game. Offensive lineman have to act as a single entity, but they have 5 separate brains. It takes a single field general to make sure that all 5 brains are on the same page. Moreover, the QB can see the whole play. I can't imagine a LT can see a the LB safety combo on the other side to watch out for a blitz, especially once he is in his stance.

In short, our lineman are awful. But I still think the majority of it is Campbell. Also, I sincerely hope we aren't picking this high ever again, and therefore do not think we will have another chance at a franchise QB.

[mel25]

exactly how do they come up with these numbers? for example with dockery, how did they come up with the 3.1 and 8.8 and so on?

[SonnyJ]

campbell had, on average, 2.3 seconds (something very close to that- its on this site somewhere). rodgers and roethlisberger, who both got sacked more, had about half a second and a second more, respectively.

Without any kind of context or explanation of how it was gathered or who gathered it, it's just another meaningless stat.

Not only do I disagree, but I actually think the opposite: while it's true that the above applied to JC in prior years, this year I saw plays where he got the ball out quick far more often than I saw him fail to see the blitz, and I felt that there were more examples of him making the Oline better (1st Dallas game) than of him making the Oline worse (3 or so plays in the 2nd Dallas game). There's a reason why he was only sacked once in the 1st Dallas game, and it ain't that the Oline stepped up.

Of course you would think this. We wouldn't expect any differently from you. VT below, though, has a much better comprehension of the subject.

I just think you can't overlook the aubidle/hot route thing.

I watched every Vikings game this season, and I can't remember a SINGLE play when Favre didn't step up to his lineman and point out a blitzer to them, or call out to his receivers for a hot route. This isn't a full out audible (changing the whole play) but rather just a heads up to one or two guys (Changing one or two assignments.)

In fact, I lied. I did see Favre fail to do this at times. It was during the Carolina game after Childress *****ed him out for doing it too much. Consequently, he was abused like a 10$ hooker during that game.

In my opinion, defenses are too fast and too smart in this game. Offensive lineman have to act as a single entity, but they have 5 separate brains. It takes a single field general to make sure that all 5 brains are on the same page. Moreover, the QB can see the whole play. I can't imagine a LT can see a the LB safety combo on the other side to watch out for a blitz, especially once he is in his stance.

In short, our lineman are awful. But I still think the majority of it is Campbell. Also, I sincerely hope we aren't picking this high ever again, and therefore do not think we will have another chance at a franchise QB.

[SonnyJ]

exactly how do they come up with these numbers? for example with dockery, how did they come up with the 3.1 and 8.8 and so on?

That is the burning question, isn't it? How and who are incredibly relevant questions, but many just seem to take it at face value.

It has Chris Samuels down for a negative rating, even though he looked solid as always to me. :whoknows:

[skinsfan190]

Heyer = 33 pressures

I've hated Stephanie Heyer from the beginning. Softer than a baby wipe.

Heyer=Garbage

Will be release hopefully

[mel25]

That is the burning question, isn't it? How and who are incredibly relevant questions, but many just seem to take it at face value.

It has Chris Samuels down for a negative rating, even though he looked solid as always to me. :whoknows:

lol i thought everybody just knew somethin i didn't know. at a glance it seems accurate, we had a bad oline and there's a bunch of red up there. i just wanna know specifically how they come up with the ratings. that would determine how seriously i take it.

[grego]

Without any kind of context or explanation of how it was gathered or who gathered it, it's just another meaningless stat.

ok. but if the stat were accurate- as in, campbell had half a second to a full second less to get rid of the ball from snap to sack than big ben or rodgers (who have both been said to hold onto the ball too long- as has campbell), wouldnt it tell you that the opposing D came free quite a bit? its not like we didnt see that this year.

what, then, could it possibly tell you, if not that?

i think that when you compile all the stats, it tells you exactly what most people have been saying- our O line was a sieve that didnt give the QB much time to do anything.

btw, you arent arguing that our line, particularly our tackles, were good this year, are you?

[SonnyJ]

ok. but if the stat were accurate- as in, campbell had half a second to a full second less to get rid of the ball from snap to sack than big ben or rodgers (who have both been said to hold onto the ball too long- as has campbell), wouldnt it tell you that the opposing D came free quite a bit? its not like we didnt see that this year.

what, then, could it possibly tell you, if not that?

i think that when you compile all the stats, it tells you exactly what most people have been saying- our O line was a sieve that didnt give the QB much time to do anything.

Could it also indicate that: the QB can't recognize a blitz to save his life; can't feel pressure; has poor pocket awareness; doesn't know how to vary his snap count or do a hard count; has poor downfield accuracy and vision, thus constricting the field and giving the defense little fear about bringing heat; is hesitant and indecisive, often double-clutching his throws on 3-step drops; reluctant to throw into tight windows, thus making man coverage easier for opposing teams and freeing up rushers to get after the QB; etc., etc., etc.

In short, isn't it at least possible that a hesitant, indecisive, and timid QB lacking field smarts was just as culpable as a shaky, injury-depleted line?

BTW, if the opposing D is constantly coming in untouched - which would have to be the case for the 2.3 second figure to be true, that indicates a blitz pickup problem, to me. Who is responsible for blitz diagnosis and pickup?

btw, you arent arguing that our line, particularly our tackles, were good this year, are you?

I never said that, and you know it. Take your strawman elsewhere.

[mistertim]

Could it also indicate that: the QB can't recognize a blitz to save his life

BTW, if the opposing D is constantly coming in untouched - which would have to be the case for the 2.3 second figure to be true, that indicates a blitz pickup problem, to me. Who is responsible for blitz diagnosis and pickup?

Seeing as how Campbell had one of the better completion percentages in the league vs the blitz, your point seems a little flawed. As far as the time he has indicating blitz; yes it could and probably does to a point, but we have also seen 4 (hell, even 3) man rushes get into the backfield almost instantly against our OL.

[SonnyJ]

Seeing as how Campbell had one of the better completion percentages in the league vs the blitz, your point seems a little flawed. As far as the time he has indicating blitz; yes it could and probably does to a point, but we have also seen 4 (hell, even 3) man rushes get into the backfield almost instantly against our OL.

I don't give a damn what his completion % was against the blitz. I want to see production.

The Redskins were a heavily blitzed team. That is a sure sign that the blitz was working against them. If it's working, then that completion % doesn't mean jack. It's clear that teams were not afraid of getting burned when blitzing. It means that Campbell completed a bunch of dumpoffs, rather than making the defense pay for coming after him.

We also saw Campbell wander straight into DL, showing utterly zero pocket awareness.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Seeing as how Campbell had one of the better completion percentages in the league vs the blitz, your point seems a little flawed. As far as the time he has indicating blitz; yes it could and probably does to a point, but we have also seen 4 (hell, even 3) man rushes get into the backfield almost instantly against our OL.

His completion percentage against the blitz is HEAVILY skewed by dump offs to Betts and Portis that did not gain first downs. In addition, they fail to take into consideration when JC is sacked, because he doesn't throw the ball.

Another problem that I saw with JC was that, in contrast to his hesitancy to throw normal passes, he was over eager to throw a pass against the blitx. I remember at least 3 or 4 plays this past season when a blitz was coming and he would correctly read a screen pass in order to "beat the blitz" Such a strategy is commonly done. However, the best way of doing this is for the QB to drop back and run from the blitz until they pass his blockers, taking them out of the play. I felt like JC often saw a blitz coming and dumped off before the line had fully pulled or the rushers had been neutralized, thus resulting in a loss. This, once again, would not be reflected in his "completion percentage" against the blitz.

[darrelgreenie]

Nice, we had a good discussion about OL going now its another JC thread.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Nice, we had a good discussion about OL going now its another JC thread.

As opposed to another OL thread?

Jones is servicable at best; Samuels is done. Dockery is slightly above average, and doesn't fit our new scheme as well. Rabach blows but is good at the calls and therefore stays for now. Rhiney needs to step it up, the rest are iffy. We all hate Heyer for being a UDFA thrust into the starting role. BMW is fat but continues to be someone to root for.

Did I miss anything?

[grego]

Could it also indicate that: the QB can't recognize a blitz to save his life; can't feel pressure; has poor pocket awareness; doesn't know how to vary his snap count or do a hard count; has poor downfield accuracy and vision, thus constricting the field and giving the defense little fear about bringing heat; is hesitant and indecisive, often double-clutching his throws on 3-step drops; reluctant to throw into tight windows, thus making man coverage easier for opposing teams and freeing up rushers to get after the QB; etc., etc., etc.

In short, isn't it at least possible that a hesitant, indecisive, and timid QB lacking field smarts was just as culpable as a shaky, injury-depleted line?

BTW, if the opposing D is constantly coming in untouched - which would have to be the case for the 2.3 second figure to be true, that indicates a blitz pickup problem, to me. Who is responsible for blitz diagnosis and pickup?

ok. so, did they have to stop calling 5 and 7 step drops cuz of campbell too? or was that the line's inability to protect?

I never said that, and you know it. Take your strawman elsewhere.

first off, i just asked you the question. that hardly means i'm making a strawman arguement. i've seen plenty of posters try to argue that the line was not that bad. no need to get defensive.

second, i'm open to whatever makes the team better. if the QB stinks, replace him. if the line is horrible, fix it. but if you turn every argument that speaks to the horrible play of the line into an indictment of the QB, or write off every 'number' that makes him less culpable for the offenses failures, it sounds like your mind is made up.

no biggie. we probably just agree to disagree on the degree to which the line is culpable for the performance of the O.

[fansince62]

soooooo....the decision by Buges to retire was also needed?

[nelsonal]

thats not good.

do you have any idea how that compares with other teams? i'd be interested to see how they compare.

Using the Saints as an example good team, on 1223 passing plays, the O line was respnsible for 18 of 21 sacks, 26 of 36 sacks, and 115 of 126 pressures. This is about 10% of the plays involved QB disruptions, using the same assumptions as the grand parent.

The skill position blockers were responsible for 3 sacks, 7 hits and 11 pressures. The QBs were responsible for 3 hits.

[grego]

Using the Saints as an example good team, on 1223 passing plays, the O line was respnsible for 18 of 21 sacks, 26 of 36 sacks, and 115 of 126 pressures. This is about 10% of the plays involved QB disruptions, using the same assumptions as the grand parent.

The skill position blockers were responsible for 3 sacks, 7 hits and 11 pressures. The QBs were responsible for 3 hits.

so, the QB was hit/sacked/pressured nearly 40% of the time he passed for the skins, and the saints QB was hit/sacked/pressured 10% of the time?

if thats the case, thats pretty shocking.

[nelsonal]

Well, if being skeptical of any old yahoo who calls themselves an expert is conceited and misconstrued, so be it. But, please, remind me what their qualifications are, again?

They don't get paid for being correct. They get paid for generating site traffic. Claiming to do authoritative breakdowns on NFL players is actually a great gimmick. Kudos to them for thinking of it.

From their site:

The truth is I'm really keen for someone to challenge the work on rather more legitimate grounds. I'd love for someone to say I also went through this game on a play by play basis and came up with some clear discrepancies in comparison to your work, can we discuss them? I think it's on that basis we get better and make the whole thing more accurate.

If you've done a play-by-play analysis then we'd be delighted to compare notes. You can contact us using the

Errors

choice in the

Contact Us

section.

They'd love to hear from you, if you have a more accurate analysis (even if it's just for one team, I'm sure).

[nelsonal]

so, the QB was hit/sacked/pressured nearly 40% of the time he passed for the skins, and the saints QB was hit/sacked/pressured 10% of the time?

if thats the case, thats pretty shocking.

Oops, I had total plays, it should be 661 passing plays. So about 20% pressures.

Also, that assumes that in especially the Redskin's case, it wasn't multiple people messing up when the play failed. It's likely that the Redskins allowed the pass rush to disrupt the play about 2x as often as the Saints. no more than 40% vs no more than 20%. It's likely that it's a little lower than that for both teams.

[grego]

Oops, I had total plays, it should be 661 passing plays. So about 20% pressures.

Also, that assumes that in especially the Redskin's case, it wasn't multiple people messing up when the play failed. It's likely that the Redskins allowed the pass rush to disrupt the play about 2x as often as the Saints. no more than 40% vs no more than 20%. It's likely that it's a little lower than that for both teams.

i gotcha. that sounds about right.

[nelsonal]

i gotcha. that sounds about right.

Also rougly, the 20% O-line responsible for pressured plays to total passing plays is pretty consistant across the NFC east rivals.