Can we solve the o-line problem this year?

[Diesel Hog]

I voted no.

I agree with many here that we'll see progress / steps in the right direction, but I don't think we'll have a great line next year. 3 years from now, I'm hoping the Skins have one of the most dominating lines in all of football.

[NoVaSkins21]

If they had some young guys like Heyer already in the pipeline, then it would have been possible to get it done quicker. It's going to take longer than a season.

[generals01]

Take a look at the Falcons from 2007 to 2008.

Only won 4 games, gave up 47 sacks, brought in a new coach and new gm.

Drafted Matt Ryan at 4, brought in FA Michael Turner, drafted Sam Baker, LT at 21, although he missed all but 5 games his rookie year.

They plugged in a 34 year old at LT when Baker was out, kept the same LG, the same over 30 center, put in a 2nd year undrafted RG, and kept the same 2nd year RT.

With these changes, they dropped the number of sacks to 17, Matt Ryan had a great year, they had a top 3 rusher and made the playoffs.

And that is without the solid defense the Skins have in place. I also have confidence in saying they didn't have the receiving playmakers the Skins have. Outside of Roddy White, who was very unproven and didn't do much prior to breaking out in 2008, they had no one. We have known playmakers in Moss, Cooley, Davis, and flashes in Kelly and Thomas.

Some of you guys act like a turn around is impossible and that we will have 0 wins unless we replace all 5 OL with 1st rounders.

I think that even if we kept the same team, the concept of reversion to the mean makes it likely we will win at least a few extra games.

[C26 Run]

To truly build a great O-line, it'll take at least 3 seasons. Taking an O-line player in the first round is a great first step. For this team, it should be the only step.

:helmet:

[Jeff in D.C.]

I think it's possible for the entire offense to be rebuilt in one offseason, not just the OL. I wouldn't necessarily bet on it to happen, but it is hypothetically possible using the following three models:

Model 1

Sign FA RG/C, perhaps both if we're lucky

1st-#4 - LT

2nd - trade down, picking up a 3rd or extra 2nd

2nd - RT

2nd/3rd - QB (Lefevour/McCoy/Pike, etc.)

4th - RB/RG/C

5th - C or RG (whichever we didn't get in FA)

Model 2

Sign FA RT

1st-#4 - QB

trade down from #36, pick up extra pick

2nd - LT

2nd/3rd - RB

4th - RG

5th - C

Model 3

Sign FA RB

1st-#4 - LT

Trade down from 2nd -#36 pick up another pick

2nd - RT

2nd/3rd - QB

4th - RG/C

5th - RG/C

You can find G's & C's in the 4th/5th rounds, and Shanny has a history of winning with lower round RB & OL so this is possible imo.

Now I admit my scenarios are dreaming somewhat and doesn't account for depth, but it shows that it is possible to rebuild the OL and the entire offense in one offseason. Unlikely, but possible, and definitely probable in two offseasons.

[Looking For Number Four]

Take a look at the Falcons from 2007 to 2008.

Only won 4 games, gave up 47 sacks, brought in a new coach and new gm.

Drafted Matt Ryan at 4, brought in FA Michael Turner, drafted Sam Baker, LT at 21, although he missed all but 5 games his rookie year.

They plugged in a 34 year old at LT when Baker was out, kept the same LG, the same over 30 center, put in a 2nd year undrafted RG, and kept the same 2nd year RT.

With these changes, they dropped the number of sacks to 17, Matt Ryan had a great year, they had a top 3 rusher and made the playoffs.

And that is without the solid defense the Skins have in place. I also have confidence in saying they didn't have the receiving playmakers the Skins have. Outside of Roddy White, who was very unproven and didn't do much prior to breaking out in 2008, they had no one. We have known playmakers in Moss, Cooley, Davis, and flashes in Kelly and Thomas.

Some of you guys act like a turn around is impossible and that we will have 0 wins unless we replace all 5 OL with 1st rounders.

I think that even if we kept the same team, the concept of reversion to the mean makes it likely we will win at least a few extra games.

Awesome post, love the Falcons comparison, if anyone can pull off something similar it had to be the Shanmiester.

I agree out playmakers are on a whole level above theirs. Cooley and Davis are the most dangerous two TE threat in the NFL. Thomas and Kelly are hitting the infamous 3rd year and Moss in the slot would be SICK. Portis is one year removed from topping 1200 yards in 11 games and was able to top 1500 yards and double digit TDs with less than 300 attempts both season he played under Shanny. Clifton could easily be the older tackle we plug in while we groom the 2nd round tackle. Levi Jones can handle RT, Dockery can handle guard, Rabach can handle center, which leaves us missing RG unless Rhinehart thrives under this ZBS. We could easily add two free agent lineman and get this done. Seems like a lot of people, Shanahan included (given how quickly the deal was inked) think this Lichtendsergerburger guy might be another one of the missing pieces. All that leaves out the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th round along with undrafted guys.

Before your post I was not so optimistic, neither was many others (50% boted no chance), but perhaps this is feasible. It is not exactly set in stone Thomas and Samuels are history either. :applause:

[Laxpunk2006]

It can be better but not fixed for the longterm. We need an infusion of youth and talent across the board. Ideally we'd have new starters at LT, C, RG, and RT if we want to really compete. I'm alright with Heyer as a swing tackle but we'd still need additional depth and a prospect behind Dock as he'll be getting up there in age by then.

Considering our other holes at LB, DL if we got 3-4, DB, RB, and QB I don' see us not only focusing an entire draft on retooling the line but hitting on that many late round picks.

[Looking For Number Four]

So you want to get rid of a young, talented kicker who performed very well for us in his limited duty for an older vet who actually missed a game-winning field goal in the playoffs...because he'd be better in the playoffs?

Do I have that logic right?

And also, are you going for the record for most threads started in your first six weeks on ES?

I said carry two kickers, if we are going Gano, we are going with Gano. :shot: I would prefer to debate the line at this juncture.

I was unaware of the record, do you know who holds it and how many more I need?

[Jeff in D.C.]

Take a look at the Falcons from 2007 to 2008.

Only won 4 games, gave up 47 sacks, brought in a new coach and new gm.

Drafted Matt Ryan at 4, brought in FA Michael Turner, drafted Sam Baker, LT at 21, although he missed all but 5 games his rookie year.

They plugged in a 34 year old at LT when Baker was out, kept the same LG, the same over 30 center, put in a 2nd year undrafted RG, and kept the same 2nd year RT.

With these changes, they dropped the number of sacks to 17, Matt Ryan had a great year, they had a top 3 rusher and made the playoffs.

Good example.

What many people forget is that while tackles generally need to be high picks (i.e. 1st & 2nd rounders), guards & centers don't have to be, and we can find good, solid ones in the 4th/5th rounds.

I believe the Dolphins also completely rebuilt their OL from 07-08, I'll have to look them up and see what they did during that offseason.

[Jeff in D.C.]

I voted no.

I agree with many here that we'll see progress / steps in the right direction, but I don't think we'll have a great line next year. 3 years from now, I'm hoping the Skins have one of the most dominating lines in all of football.

No one is saying the line will/can be great next year, just that it can be dramatically improved and very solid.

[Jeff in D.C.]

Okay, here's a comparison of the Dolphins offense in 07 & 08 and what they did in the 07-08 offseason:

2007 Season (1-15)

4.0 ypc

23rd in rushing

42 sacks allowed

07/08 offseason

- Drafted Jake Long (LT) 1st round (only OL they drafted in the 1st three rounds)

- signed Chad Pennington (QB)

- signed Ricky Williams (RB)

- signed FA Justin Smiley (LG)

- signed FA Ikechuku Ndukwe (RG)

- moved Vernon Carey from LT to RT

2008 Season (11-5)

4.2 ypc

11th in rushing

26 sacks allowed

[Looking For Number Four]

It can be better but not fixed for the longterm. We need an infusion of youth and talent across the board. Ideally we'd have new starters at LT, C, RG, and RT if we want to really compete. I'm alright with Heyer as a swing tackle but we'd still need additional depth and a prospect behind Dock as he'll be getting up there in age by then.

Considering our other holes at LB, DL if we got 3-4, DB, RB, and QB I don' see us not only focusing an entire draft on retooling the line but hitting on that many late round picks.

DL

Wilfork said today that he would be appalled by the franchise tag and given the Pats frugal ways could easily plug in at NT, as could Hampton who had stated he would like to stay with PIT but that is on them. If this were the case, Carter could easily move back to LB and the switch would be all but done. Dansby, Bullock, and Brackett are free agents as well if more LB help is demanded. Kampman, Seymour, and Vaden Bosch both look like they are going to hit free agency as well. Peppers is due $20M if the Panthers were to tag him, which they could do and then trade them but if they cannot get a trade they are stuck with his HUGE price.

CB

Hall will have a much better year with a more aggressive defense, as well as the progression of Orakpo. Barnes looks like a fixture at CB as well (3rd rounder) who will add depth. Leigh Bodden, Daunta Robinson, and Lito Sheperd are all set to hit free agency. We need a FS.

RB

Portis ran for over 1200 yards in 11 games last year and topped 1500 yards and 10 TDs with less than 300 attempts both years he played under Shanahan. Betts was perceived as one of the best backups in football before our makeshift line changed that perception. I would like to sang Charles Scott (LSU), Joe McKnight (USC), or Hardesty (TEN) in the 4th. Chester Taylor, Leon Washington, and Willie Parker are also option via FA.

OL

Hadnot, 28, 16 starts from '05-'08 at RG, 6 last year (Mangini)

Gandy, 31, LT for 16 games in BUF '05-'06, 16 starts ARZ '07-'08, 12 starts '09 for ARZ before injury

Amano, 28, gaurd for 2,006 yard Chris Johnson and still young

Clifton, 34, past his prime but still an upgrade and viable for a season

Bobbie Williams, 33, all 900 pounds of him plowed the way for the Cedric Benson revival in CIN

Brisel, 27, started 5 games '09 and 16 '08 for Kyle Shanny in HOU

Hartwig, 31, 16 starts at C for PIT past two years, 95 on his career

Pitts, 31, 16 starts/season from '02-'08 for HOU at LG, 2 starts last year before season ending knee surgery

Kaczur, 31, 62 starts for NE at RT since '05

Neal, 33, 72 starts for NE at RG since '04

Hamilton, 33, started every game at LG for Shanahan from '02-'06, 104 career starts

[JaimeDeCurry]

I said carry two kickers, if we are going Gano, we are going with Gano. :shot: I would prefer to debate the line at this juncture.

I was unaware of the record, do you know who holds it and how many more I need?

It really doesn't matter what the record is...I'm sure you'll shatter it by the end of next week or so.

[eljeasel]

I don't think the problem can be solved in one offseason, but we can take steps in the right direction.

I think I agree. I dont think the goal should be to make it a 1 year turn around. Clearly the goal is to go out and win the big one. But I dont really like the idea of trying to fix everything even an entire unit in one offseason.

Yeah we have holes at the line. Clearly we should be looking to fill them, but if you are forgoing the opportunity to bring in talent in other places just to focus on fixing the OL in one offseason, this is where I get uncomfortable.

[LeftCoast Skinz FAN]

It is going to take more than one year to fix the OL. Shanahan will get a good start this year in fixing the line but it will take at least two years to fix. We need to make our priority in the next two drafts, 2010 and 2011, to getting some young talent on our OL. I believe Shanahan can put the pieces together to get the Skins OL dominating again.

[DGREENHULK]

I hope we take the approach the Jags did last year in drafting OT's like Monroe and Britten both YOUNG guys that will anchor their line for next 10 years....we are solid at LG with DOC...and thats about it...we will need to upgrade at Center if not this year then next and RG is a big question mark...I still think Rhino will be given a shot to take that spot.

[texasthunder]

Okay, here's a comparison of the Dolphins offense in 07 & 08 and what they did in the 07-08 offseason:

Very good info.

You can also add the Jets to the conversation.

In 2008 they added Woody at RT, he is 32 yrs old

they also added Fanaca at LG, he is 33 yrs old.

And look what they did this year.

[peanut0862]

I don't want to get off topic but on the Drafttec link you gave it show the Chiefs picking before us in round two can someone explain this please

[Looking For Number Four]

I don't want to get off topic but on the Drafttec link you gave it show the Chiefs picking before us in round two can someone explain this please

Probably just ignore it, could be a flaw or older mock when they were still figuring out who would have the pick. Mostly, the mock was to get a rough idea of who was going where.

[Looking For Number Four]

Very good info.

You can also add the Jets to the conversation.

In 2008 they added Woody at RT, he is 32 yrs old

they also added Fanaca at LG, he is 33 yrs old.

And look what they did this year.

They had also spent two 1st round picks on Mangold and Ferguson who both turned out in a big way for them.

With the list of OL free agent I provided above, along with 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, undrafted and what is currently there I think we could make a serious move toward getting this done. Shanahan's Zone Blocking Scheme is different than almost every team in the NFL, therefore, the lineman we are looking for are different than that of most teams. Okung does fit the mold of being athletic enough to excel in the system, but Davis and Williams are probably to big. Brown and Capers both fit the bill and could possibly provide the same benefit as Okung. As could several of the later lineman. In this style it is more technique than ability or size.

[SkinsBoss]

I would pick Model 2 if given the choice between those three. But I wonder with it being uncapped I think one thing a lot of us are forgetting is just because someone is an RFA with less than 6 years doesn't necessarily mean that their team will tender them even if it's to get draft picks back.

That to me is the most interesting thing about this offseason. Teams that can save money and the moves that they may make can really benefit a team like us without necessarily having to give up the draft picks.

If that happens the talent pool for OLine and other areas may potentially be much better than what it appears now and the ideal scenario would be to capitalize on that without having to mortgage the future with other draft picks.

On a side note, I do like the idea of drafting qb in 1st round and then trading back to get extra picks because I think this years 2nd round is going to be pretty awesome and if we could end up with 2 picks in the 2nd round would be awesome.

[Redskins4ever]

The offensive line can be completely addressed this off season alone. Bruce Allen has to draft, draft, draft. We can't take the bone headed Cerratto approach by signing free agents to fill out the offensive line. Offensive linemen are to be drafted. The Redskins don't need Sam Bradford. If it's a young QB Shanahan wants, then they can trade that fourth overall pick for additonal picks, and use those picks to fill out the offensive line, and then use the second round draft choice on Colt McCoy since he's projected to go in the 2nd round if Shanahan wants a young quarterback. Bottom line: The offensive line is of paramount importance this offseason.

[method man]

If this team puts in the effort, it sure can solve these problems in one offseason.

Trade Dockery for Kuper

Sign Hamilton

Sign Eugene Amano

Resign Levi Jones to be RT (ZBS fit)

Draft Jeff Byers

Draft Charles Brown

Draft Selvish Capers

Starters: Brown/Amano/Hamilton/Kuper/Jones

Backups: Byers/Capers/Heyer/Rinehart/BMW

Let Jones and Hamilton go in a couple years and replace them with Capers and Byers.

[Chump Bailey]

We can definitely make some strides.

There are good OT's available:

Jammal Brown

Zach Strief

Charlie Johnson - likely a very good fit.

If Levi is willing to play RT and not get paid top dollar he could be a good fit there.

[fansince62]

Solve? No.

Go a long way toward repairing? Yes.

Even if we take a QB.

agree.

no idea on current o-line thinking...but one can imagine the thought process:

1) survey current talent on the roster for credible depth/back-ups

2) sign one to four FAs (as has already started) for depth/competition

3) draft two O-linemen...sign a couple more undrafted

4) retain one to two starters from this past season

you could improve the talent level/capabilities substantially (i.e., become an average line that excels at run blocking) this season and then finish off the work season after next. what has killed us has been the unrelenting series of injuries - and this traces to age. just moving to younger bodies who fit the Shanahan profile wil lresult in improved reliability & consistency...IMO.