TheSkins2006 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 The difference is steinbrenner has more money then the dan. but I agree with you on the part of team unity, they definitely don't have the ego like some of our players on the redskins. PS. #27 FOR THE YANKEES! WOOHOO!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 No salary cap in baseball helps a bit. My favorite baseball team, The Cincy Reds had a $73 million payroll in 2009 and finished near dead last. The Yankees had a $201 million payroll and won the series. The 2nd highest were the Mets at $149 mill. Baseball is just so different. The Yankees have spent upwards of a billion dollars more than most teams the past decade to buy that title. Snyder is trying to do the same thing. Thankfully, the NFL had a hard cap and that is part of the reason the NFL is a much better product than the MLB. not only do the yankees get by buying up everyones all star players when they can't afford them they also have tradition that makes every all star want to come play there....The NFL has a salary cap, a more intriguing team game that can't just be won on stats or a 3 all star bullpen. Exactamundo, the biggest reason being the soft cap in baseball. SALARY CAP /end thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman#21 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Baseball no salary cap, football salary cap. 53 man roster Football, 25 active baseball 40 man total. you cant compare the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 The difference is steinbrenner has more money then the dan. Both their net worths are estimated at 1.3 Billion. http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/10/billionaires08_Daniel-Snyder_O4QX.html http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/10/billionaires08_George-Steinbrenner-III_OJ49.html The difference is baseball is a completely different sport, with a completely different strategy for building a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 the yankees are a joke. they just buy championships. snyder does EXACTLY what the yankees do every year, he throws money at big names, except the yankees get away with it cause theres endless money to be thrown. how hard is it to go out and buy the best FA year after year and not worry about how much you spend? the yankees and red sox and teams that just spend bazillions of dollars are just a joke. in the 90s when the yankees were building that core of players, that was much more respectable. jeter, posada, rivera, petite, those guys were there from the get go. it didnt take much thought to sign Arod, Teixiera, CC, burnett, Damon. their payroll is an atrocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbie8046 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 The Redskins and Yankees are ran the exact same way? What could he possibly learn from them? The fact of that matter is that a baseball team and football team cannot be run the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 The Redskins and Yankees are ran the exact same way? What could he possibly learn from them? The fact of that matter is that a baseball team and football team cannot be run the same way. it boils down to the cap. the yankees throw money at big name FA instead of developing young players. they have one legit young player on that team thats any good at the moment, the rest are guys they developed 15 years ago or FA they have bought because they dole out contracts like woah. the redskins throw money at big name FA and in turn neglect depth because there is a cap in place. if there wasnt a cap, we would be the yankees for sure. but there is. imagine how mediocre the yankees would be if they could only pick up one big FA per year? hell they spent like 300+ million in contracts this offseason alone. its disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I am a Redskins and Yankees fan too -- and the one thing I can say Snyder can learn from Steinbrenner is he actually learns from his mistakes. Maybe not immediately but they get there in terms of learning lessons. The 80s Yankees -- didn't build their teams via the main fundamental for success, starting pitching. (like the Skins with the O line) they had a lot of star power position players, Dave Winfield, Rickey Henderson, Don Mattingly, etc -- but their ace pitchers where ancient guys like Guidry, Neikro, Tommy John (Jon Jansen, Randy Thomas?) -- they imported players from other teams like Ed Whitson (Brandon Lloyd?) and payed them like they were stars. They weren't stars and flopped on the big stage. They traded their young players like Fred McGriff, Jay Buhner, etc for veterans. Sound familiar? (Trading draft picks for established players) In the 90s they let their farm team develop and that became the core of a successful team -- Pettite, Rivera, Posada, Jeter, Bernie Williams. And used FA to complement that core. They got good locker room players like O'Neil and Martinez. Money was still a factor but not the only factor. And they won! They lost their way some this decade. They stopped developing players the same way and would import over the hill stars past their prime like Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, etc. Found their way again by investing in the draft and developing more of their own again. And when they spent their big money, for the most part it wasn't for star position players but starting pitching -- younger and not past their prime guys. And again went for chemistry guys for a change like Swisher. I don't think the Yankees are a paragon of how to run a team but its not a bad parallel to the Redskins -- because in both cases you have overzealous ownership that seem antsy to make moves. The Yankees don't always get it right, far from it, but they clearly do it better than the Redskins. The Yankees also became more patient. They stuck with Torre for over a decade. They kept their young guys -- Hughes, Chamberlain, Cano, etc even when they struggled. If you listen to Cashman, he has a plan there is a method to the madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 it boils down to the cap.the yankees throw money at big name FA instead of developing young players. they have one legit young player on that team thats any good at the moment, the rest are guys they developed 15 years ago or FA they have bought because they dole out contracts like woah. the redskins throw money at big name FA and in turn neglect depth because there is a cap in place. if there wasnt a cap, we would be the yankees for sure. but there is. imagine how mediocre the yankees would be if they could only pick up one big FA per year? hell they spent like 300+ million in contracts this offseason alone. its disgusting. Their payroll didn't go up this year. They simply replaced the FA that were let go like Abreu and Giambi. As for their self developed players 2B -- Cano SS -- Jeter CF-- Caberera/Gardner C -- Posada SP -- Pettite SP -- Wang -- been their ace before this year -- got hurt RP -- Rivera RP -- Hughes RP -- Chamberlain RP -- Phillip Coke RP -- David Robertson. No question they use their money. But they do develop players too. And if you read about them they have one of the better regarded minor league systems in the league. Do I think the Redskins are equals to the Yankees brain power wise, no way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scamp1 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Had to say Yankees. I HATE THE YANKEES!! Bu they can build a team. We must take into account all the steroids though. Dont forget the 200,000,000.00 payroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Their payroll didn't go up this year. They simply replaced the FA that were let go like Abreu and Giambi.As for their self developed players 2B -- Cano SS -- Jeter CF-- Caberera/Gardner C -- Posada SP -- Pettite SP -- Wang -- been their ace before this year -- got hurt RP -- Rivera RP -- Hughes RP -- Chamberlain RP -- Phillip Coke RP -- David Robertson. No question they use their money. But they do develop players too. And if you read about them they have one of the better regarded minor league systems in the league. Do I think the Redskins are equals to the Yankees brain power wise, no way again, jeter, rivera, petite, and posada were developed 15 years ago. currently the only guy they have thats proven he can play consistently is cano. joba the hutt is coddled more than any player in baseball i can think of, and hughes has struggled badly. aside from the core 4, who admittedly were amazing pickups (15 years ago) that team has absolutely no depth or budding stars. they just throw zillions of dollars at guys on other teams. look for hanley ramirez to replace jeter in a few years, and look for carl crawford to be in that outfield. thats what they do. its a joke the way they heave money around. they get away with it cause theres no cap and their fan base is massive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Dont forget the 200,000,000.00 payroll. I think that's part of the point. It's not that the Yankees are brilliant at running a baseball team, when you have money you got advantages, but the Yankees seem better at using these advantages. Seems that the counterargument here is that if the Skins had no cap and could spend even more money -- we'd see the same things. I am doubting it because the Yankees seem to get the idea of developing a minor league system and that money alone won't do this. Maybe Vinny and Danny get this now, too will see. The thing that always drove me nuts about the Skins is if you are going to spend all this money on FA's shouldn't that if anything help you avoid as opposed to push you to also trade draft picks in addition to those signings? You can sign FA's and ALSO go nuts with developing players in the draft too -- look at the Pats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassSkinsFan Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 currently the only guy they have thats proven he can play consistently is cano. joba the hutt is coddled more than any player in baseball i can think of, and hughes has struggled badly. Take a closer look at this. The 8 guys on that list (i.e. the non-core 4) are mostly pitchers, and they are mostly still being developed. Joba is no doubt cut more slack than I'd like to see, but you can bet that there is a plan in place that addresses the risks of continuing that, and has a trigger point where management says "enough is enough - he's done." This happened with Nick Johnson, and it turned out well for the Yanks. aside from the core 4, who admittedly were amazing pickups (15 years ago) that team has absolutely no depth or budding stars. they just throw zillions of dollars at guys on other teams.. Most of these guys have people ahead of them. They're being groomed to succeed in those roles when the time comes. Some are struggling, and those are being watched very carefully. There is a long-term strategy in place for player development and that includes identifying FA needs both short and long-term. look for hanley ramirez to replace jeter in a few years, and look for carl crawford to be in that outfield. thats what they do. its a joke the way they heave money around. they get away with it cause theres no cap and their fan base is massive. I don't dispute that they spend spend spend. But unlike the Skins who also spend, they put a quality product on the field year in and year out. When was the last time the Yanks were last in the AL East, or even 3rd for that matter? The fan base is massive because the team is always a contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassSkinsFan Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 You can sign FA's and ALSO go nuts with developing players in the draft too -- look at the Pats. I HATE the Patriots!!! :evilg: Seriously, thanks for helping explain where I'm coming from. It's really about the FO approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 currently the only guy they have thats proven he can play consistently is cano. joba the hutt is coddled more than any player in baseball i can think of, and hughes has struggled badly. Wang was hurt this year, but he was their ace the previous 2 years, winning 19 games. Hughes struggled badly in the post season yes, but during the season he was a stud, one of the best if not the best set up guy in the league. Chamberlain was hot and cold, dominating at times as a starter, previous year he was unhittable. He's what 23? Check out David Robertson's numbers -- 1.5 strikeouts per inning, if I recall highest in the majors. and since you seem to be judging players seasons completely by the post season, Robertson was good. Cabrera has been their starting centerfielder for 2 years now, not a stud but solid. I don't know how you can say a starting player hasn't proven he can play. They got one of the top prospects in baseball for CF in Austin Jackson who is coming up soon. aside from the core 4, who admittedly were amazing pickups (15 years ago) that team has absolutely no depth or budding stars. they just throw zillions of dollars at guys on other teams. Google them and read about their minor league system. They got prospects they don't know what do with at shortstop like Pena, and more starting pitching. look for hanley ramirez to replace jeter in a few years, and look for carl crawford to be in that outfield. thats what they do. its a joke the way they heave money around. they get away with it cause theres no cap and their fan base is massive. No one argues that they don't flaunt and use their money. But if you get past your dislike for the team and are really interested, and am guessing you are not and that's cool, but on the off chance you are read about how much time and money they are pouring into scouting and developing their minor league system. the analogy to the Redskins to me is do the Redskins put the same time and money into the draft, that they do with FA's? Your point is Cashman and the Yankees don't do that so you don't go with the premise -- cool enough -- so you won't agree on this point. But I follow the Yankees as close as the Redskins and yeah if you follow them a little bit more than watching them for a game or two in the post season, you'd know that this team actually has some decent prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Take a closer look at this. The 8 guys on that list (i.e. the non-core 4) are mostly pitchers, and they are mostly still being developed. Joba is no doubt cut more slack than I'd like to see, but you can bet that there is a plan in place that addresses the risks of continuing that, and has a trigger point where management says "enough is enough - he's done." This happened with Nick Johnson, and it turned out well for the Yanks. the plan will be "if one of these kids fails, find out who won the cy young or mvp last year and throw 100 mil at them". they havent developed a legit stud player since 1995. cano looks pretty good, but hes no stud. and johnson was an injury problem, hes still a solid player. definitely no "stud" but his issue is hes always battling injuries. Most of these guys have people ahead of them. They're being groomed to succeed in those roles when the time comes. Some are struggling, and those are being watched very carefully. There is a long-term strategy in place for player development and that includes identifying FA needs both short and long-term. whos being groomed? brett gardner? melky cabrera? these are all nice role player guys, but that team doesnt develop studs anymore (at least not in the last 15 years). they go out and spend tons of money on guys from other teams. if you follow the yankees, you know this. nothing is worse than yankees fans trying to pretend thats not how their team is assembled. I don't dispute that they spend spend spend. But unlike the Skins who also spend, they put a quality product on the field year in and year out. When was the last time the Yanks were last in the AL East, or even 3rd for that matter? The fan base is massive because the team is always a contender. the skins have a cap, so they cant spend. if snyder could spend 300 million a year, and nab the top guys every year all the time, we'd contend too. when a team like the devil rays gets to the WS with a bunch of drafted guys and kids, thats impressive to me. fielding a payroll that could finance a small country and winning the world series is not impressive IMO. find me a time that the yankees won anything without having one of the top 5 highest payrolls in baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Mariano Rivera would be a better QB than Jason Campbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panel Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Sure baseball doesn't have parity Baseball has just as much 'parity' as football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 find me a time that the yankees won anything without having one of the top 5 highest payrolls in baseball. I think you are missing the point. The point clearly isn't the Yankees are a model of how to run a team, yeah of course they have a gazillion dollars and take advantage of it, but they do arguably a better job with their money advantages than the Redskins. You seem to be arguing otherwise -- Vinny is as smart as Cashman, only thing stopping Vinny from equaling Cashman is that Cashman has even more money to spend than Vinny. Break the cap, let Vinny go wild, and the Skins would be winning super bowls. I follow the point, Cashman like Snyder said they made mistakes, but Cashman seems to be going at it smarter now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I think you are missing the point. The point clearly isn't the Yankees are a model of how to run a team, yeah of course they have a gazillion dollars and take advantage of it, but they do arguably a better job with their money advantages than the Redskins.You seem to be arguing otherwise -- Vinny is as smart as Cashman, only thing stopping Vinny from equaling Cashman is that Cashman has even more money to spend than Vinny. Break the cap, let Vinny go wild, and the Skins would be winning super bowls. I follow the point, Cashman like Snyder said they made mistakes, but Cashman seems to be going at it smarter now. how has cashman been smart lately? any joe shmo knows that signing Arod or Tex or CC is going to help your team. i bet if there was no cap vinny could field a contending team. give him an extra 100 million to play with he'd just sign great players from other teams. you do that enough, youll start winning. its what makes being an NFL GM difficult, you have to field an entire team without going crazy moneywise. tell me something, what has cashman done aside from the great draft 15 years ago, that makes him such a great GM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 how has cashman been smart lately? any joe shmo knows that signing Arod or Tex or CC is going to help your team.i bet if there was no cap vinny could field a contending team. give him an extra 100 million to play with he'd just sign great players from other teams. you do that enough, youll start winning. its what makes being an NFL GM difficult, you have to field an entire team without going crazy moneywise. tell me something, what has cashman done aside from the great draft 15 years ago, that makes him such a great GM? Will be talking around in circles so this is probably a waste of both of our times to go at length on this point but what the heck I'll give it one more go. And I won't repeat all the players I mentioned before but some: If you are defining Phil Hughes as a guy who struggled this year, then either you are just plain biased or simply just watching the post season. Many who have watched this team (including the cynical NY media) this season was talking about Hughes deserving consideration for being the team's MVP, and a key part of their 2nd half surge. Putting down Chamberlain by saying he was coddled, just seems silly. OK the guy looked dominating as a reliever, then this year they moved him back and forth and at times still looked dominating -- he probably belongs in the bullpen. But how does that negate him as a prospect? It would be like me trashing Orkapo for how Blache uses him. Orkapo is young with stud talent. Few would argue the same doesn't apply to Joba. If you followed the Yankees you would know guys like Robertson in the bull pen or Aceves, and how when Jeter got hurt, Pena came up and impressed, ditto a young catcher for Posada, etc. In fact if you googled the Subway series, the NY reporters went on about how the difference between the Mets and Yankees is that when Yankee players go down, they have prospects to bring up and the Mets don't. If you followed the Yankees, you'd read the Cashman doesn't want to trade prospects for veterans like they used to -- he didn't want to trade Hughes, Kennedy, and Cabrera for Santana so the Mets got him. He also tried to bring in good chemistry guys like Swisher, and Burnett. The analogy to the Redskins to me is pretty simple. Cashman and crew made some dumb moves in the past. Instead of Snyder/Cerrato style saying there is nothing wrong with their approach -- if it ain't broke don't fix it, etc. They decided to change pace, put more money and effort into the minor league system, rededicated themselves to securing front line pitching. Get younger, etc. No it doesn't make Cashman a genius, far from it. But he explained how they screwed up in the past, how they would change and that they'd stick to it. Wouldn't that in itself be a refreshing change of pace here? It would be akin to Vinny saying look: we have screwed up in the past, we traded too many draft picks and put too little effort into finding young players. We will continue to spend money on FA, but instead of spending millions on position players, we will sign top players to beef up the lines guys like Jordan Gross as opposed to Randle El. We will stop trading draft picks for veteran players with the goal of having the best of both worlds -- strong established players from FAs in key positions, and strong drafts, too. I get it the Yankees are evil and are very, very, very bad but if you got past that, you'd see the parallels much easier. The Yankees hit the point where they said this isn't working, and came up with a plan to change. Whether you think they where successful with that or not -- its a separate issue. No they didn't abandon FA but they never said they would. They said they would pour money into the draft, and stop trading prospects for veterans on a regular basis -- and they have done just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 BL: I am not saying you SHOULD follow the Yankees -- if its not your team and clearly its not, then why should you? I do, and am far from a rose colored glasses guy. the Yankees clearly have lots of advantages and I get why people hate them for it. Maybe the simplest analogy that just hit me to the Redskins is this: FA and trades -- the Redskins have had the habit of buying over the hill players past their prime or average to good players where they pay them like they are pro bowlers. Lloyd wasn't a stud, the Skins just thought he would become one and paid him like a pro-bowler and gave up picks like he was a stud. They paid Archuleta like he was a pro-bowl safety but he isn't a pro bowler and is pushing 30. Taylor was at the tail end of his career, etc. They spend money but not always wisely. Yanks ditto. They pay Pavano big money like he's an ace, well he never was an ace. Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson were pushing 40. Those were dumb transactions. If you are going to spend the money on studs, why not get true studs, no over the hill studs or wannabee studs -- Sabathia, Burnett, Texiera are the real deal. Panic trades -- the Redskins panic about Portis being slightly hurt so they mortgage a 3rd and a 4th for Duckett. Dumb deal and the Yanks likewise used to do the same thing. This year Wang got hurt, instead of dealing prospects for a veteran pitchers they used their young guys. If you have all this money, why not invest in scouting, your minor league system, and sign bonafide stars as opposed to the over the hill types or overpay for players who aren't marquee. If you are going to spend $400 on dinner why not get your money's worth and spend it at Mortons, then overpay at Outback? And the largest point is this, Cashman admitted they blew it, and here's how they are going to change. It can't be that easy to knock him considering they were just crowned World Champions. Snyder has admitted they made mistakes, but it would be cool to hear where they think they screwed up and how they are going to change? Wasn't it as early as a season ago where they said if it ain't broke don't fix it? Can you picture George Steinbrenner after the Yanks flounder with a below 500 record for a 10 year span -- tell the media, no changes are coming, because if it ain't broke don't fix it? Which brings another point, they seem to have higher standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullnelson9999 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 We can learn more from the Red Sox than the Yankees...now THAT is a well run organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassSkinsFan Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 whos being groomed? brett gardner? melky cabrera? these are all nice role player guys, but that team doesnt develop studs anymore (at least not in the last 15 years). they go out and spend tons of money on guys from other teams. if you follow the yankees, you know this. nothing is worse than yankees fans trying to pretend thats not how their team is assembled. I do follow the team. See post 40 above from SkinsinParadise. He's addressed this already. Would it have been better if I'd used the Red Sox as an example? After all, they're using a similar approach of patience, quality prospects and FA, and it works consistently. Or do you hate them too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassSkinsFan Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 We can learn more from the Red Sox than the Yankees...now THAT is a well run organization. It is a well-run organization, 100%. It's nearly the same model as the Yankees, and Epstein and Cashman are an interesting rivalry unto themselves. The main point is that ownership's role with both the Sox and Yanks could be a model for the Skins - not how much money is spent on FA, or what % of players come through the draft. Regardless of the strategy used by either Cashman or Epstein, they have authority on baseball decisions, and their managers are no longer publicly second-guessed by ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.