Snyder Could Learn From the Yankees - Suggestions

[MumboSauce]

I must say, even if they are all grossly overpaid, they all come to play and are professionals and get it done(Jankees), can't say that for the bloated contract players we have.

[HailfrmDEN]

Well if the league would let us break the rules every year and just pay a fine. Then we would get every good free agent. Your yankeys are a joke. When they play a team that is under baseball bull salary cap, then they can have respect.

[Skinsinparadise]

how about that tonight Boswell did an article on just this topic, what Snyder can learn from Steinbrenner

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/05/AR2009110505031.html

[Skinsinparadise]

Well if the league would let us break the rules every year and just pay a fine. Then we would get every good free agent. Your yankeys are a joke. When they play a team that is under baseball bull salary cap, then they can have respect.

It's not as you say "breaking the rules" but its a luxury tax imposed if they break a certain number, that tax money gets distributed to the rest of league including small market clubs. There was a good article written about how its helped make some of those clubs more competitive.

As for the Yankees being joke, yeah that's the buzz after they won the World Series, everybody is laughing at them no team is being ridiculed this week more than the Yankees

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

You have too many rules for me to take you seriously on this point. OK players that they have developed years ago doesn't count, and if they aren't stars they don't count either? Maybe we should only count players that were born in NY otherwise are they really deep down Yankees?

Now looking at this normally: half of their position players are homegrown, their full bullpen aside from one player is homegrown, and 40% of their rotation --60% when they move Hughes back in it.

It's fun especially if you hate the Yankees that they are all imported FA mercenaries. But sorry to rain on that cliche with facts. They are partly big time FA's -- they tried the route of going mostly with big name FA's and that hasn't worked. Which is part of my point.

yankees starting 8

1B - Tex: FA, 20 mil a season

2B - Cano: home grown, 6 mil a season

SS - Jeter: home grown, 21 mil a season

3B - Arod: FA, 33 mil a season

LF - Damon: FA, 13 mil a season

CF - cabrera: home grown, 1.4 mil a season

RF - Swisher: FA, 5.4 mil a season

C - posda: home grown, 13 mil a season

DH: matsui: FA, 13 mil a season

cashman did a great job. 15 years ago. posada and jeter are HOF guys, but they were drafted 15 years ago. why hasnt he been finding guys like this recently? or even close to them? he doesnt need to. he struck gold once 15 years ago and has just been spending money insanely ever since. most of their biggest impact players over the past 10 years have been the big FA guys: tex, arod, damon, abreu, CC, burnett, etc.

i know youre obviously a yankee fan and will defend them, but the team hasnt developed many impact players in a long time, instead they have purchased them, and this is why their payroll is over 200 million dollars, 60 million more than the next closest team.

People that follow the team have said what has done them in -- in recent years along with missing a front line starter is their lack of a bullpen, and yeah basically the whole darn bullpen is homegrown and mostly young. When the Red Sox had the edge earlier in the season people talked about the bullpen being the difference, the Yanks flipped that around.

their bullpen "studs" are two failed starters, chamberlain and hughes. theyre both solid bullpen guys, but dont pretend like they were supposed to be. hughes was touted as a starter and was pretty bad, and they coddle chamberlain so much i doubt he'll ever be a starter. your starting pitching staff for this season was made up of two of the highest paid FA pitchers, and an ex yankee you brought back whos been pretty "meh" over the past few years. wang has been messed up for 2 years so who knows how thats going, and your other starters are spot guy cast offs from other teams like guadin and mitre. and im assuming youre going after lackey or another big name pitcher. maybe garland?

steve czaban made a good point on the radio last night, the yankees dont even need to worry about mistakes. for every carl pavano or xavier nady or anything other guy that doesnt pan out, they can easily just move on and throw money at someone else, whereas other teams need to be more careful about developing players. cashman doesnt need to worry about that with a pretty much unlimited payroll.

How can you have a conversation about this one way or another, what do you know about the Yankees farm system? the fact that you don't know about those guys proves that they don't have anyone?

Ramirez was years ago for the Sox. Hughes a couple years back was one of the top 5 rated prospects in baseball, what is he now 22? Chamberlain 23? How many pitchers have the Nationals developed that won 19 games 2 years in a row like Wang? As for right now, Jason Montero, catcher is supposed to be a huge prospect. Austin Jackson, CF is hyped. Dellin Betances, hard throwing top prospect pitcher. And its not like 2nd baseman like Cano who hit 320, with 25 hrs grow on trees -- Jeter doesn't put up numbers like that but is way better in the clutch.

we'll have to wait and see on these guys, but i follow the minors a little and if these guys were so touted im assuming id have heard of some. i hear about guys all the time before they come up and ive never heard anyone mention any yankees studs waiting in the wings.

and espn is pretty much yankee and red sox central, so even if i didnt wanna read about them, id be forced to because theyd plaster it all over the front page. when chamberlain and hughes got brought up it got more espn coverage than a josh beckett thumb blister diagram, and thats hard to top!

Here you make my point. So I guess you are saying Cashman is full of crap and isn't building a farm system. Well, all i have to say there is just follow the team closer, and you would know that Hughes didn't struggle this season like you said he did and instead was a stud, Robertson has closer like stuff, they think Chamberlain probably takes over from Rivera as a closer, Hughes looks like has the makings of a good starter. Wang has been very good until recently when he got hurt.

You are right in one sense that haven't spent the same effort in developing position players that they have in pitching. Pitching is where to watch the younger players right now.

hughes struggled as a starter, and did fine in the bullpen, but he was not projected to be a reliever. wang hasnt been good in 2 years, and chamberlain is on a pitch count more strict than guys coming off tommy john surgery. i know youre a big fan, but youre getting a little ahead of yourself with these guys. all young guys get brought up to the majors because they have "great stuff". joel hanrahan has awesome stuff, and he still sucks. lol

They got Chamberlain to replace Rivera, their top prospect is a catcher, and a young wiz shortstop much better fielder than Jeter who I talked about in a prior post ready as well.

ill believe it when i see it. over the past 15 years, outside of the big time 4, ive seen one legit guy come up from the yankees and thats cano. aside from that, youll have full "i told you so" rights when these guys come out and replace jeter and posada.

/baseball rant

[Vicious]

Baseball has just as much 'parity' as football

Someone doesn't know the definition of parity. With the turn-over of playoffs teams you are just in lala land if you think that.

[Skinsinparadise]

cashman did a great job. 15 years ago. posada and jeter are HOF guys, but they were drafted 15 years ago. why hasnt he been finding guys like this recently?

Cano, 320, 25 hrs and at 2B of all positions, pretty much identical numbers to Jeter in his prime. As I've said, they have focused more on pitching. You seem to focus on position players. It's not an outlandish thought that pitching is at least as important as hitting most say its MUCH more important.

i know youre obviously a yankee fan and will defend them

Seriously? You are obviously a Redskins fan so you will defend Jason Campbell, Zorn and Vinny at every turn? I read your posts, I think not. If you read my posts on the Skins, am not Mr. Pollyanna that defends the Skins on everything, far from it.

But unlike your posts for example on JC, which IMO are over the top, but I agree JC is mediocre -- nonetheless you know your subject very well -- based at least on these posts, you don't know the Yankees that well or are too biased to be objective IMO.

their bullpen "studs" are two failed starters, chamberlain and hughes. theyre both solid bullpen guys, but dont pretend like they were supposed to be.

What you are saying is party true IMO and partly not. Hughes and Chamberlain at times have looked dominating for stretches as starters and at other teams were big time hittable. They are what 22, 23 respectfully. That's when you generally write pitchers off? But nonetheless, what does it matter if they are dominating in the Bullpen that they were intended to be starters?

Rivera was intended to be a starter too, that's how he came up. I guess when hitters come up to face him, they say to themselves this dude really isn't a reliever, he was a starter in the minor leagues, all those people that say he is the best of all time have it wrong, we don't really count him as a reliever, this dude really is a starter, so his success is null and void.

And for that matter what about David Robertson?, look up his numbers, and yeah he was intended to be a reliever.

steve czaban made a good point on the radio last night, the yankees dont even need to worry about mistakes. for every carl pavano or xavier nady or anything other guy that doesnt pan out, they can easily just move on and throw money at someone else, whereas other teams need to be more careful about developing players. cashman doesnt need to worry about that with a pretty much unlimited payroll.

Of course they do. But you aren't following my main point which isn't the Yankees don't have lots of advantages, or Brian Cashman is the best GM in the league. Far from it. I don't know how to make myself more clear. Money, money, money, money, money, money helps, helps, helps, helps, and helps big time, big time, big time. The Yankees and Cashman made lots of mistakes. The Yankees are not the best run team in baseball far from it. You keep arguing this as the point in play and am not arguing back.

The point is very very simple. As Boswell pointed out today in the WP, there are parallels with the Yankees and Redskins. Both teams have intrusive owners and have a history of buying big players and mortgaging the future.

The difference is the Yankees LATELY have learned from it. Even before he got sick, Steinbrenner backed off a lot. And clearly you haven't been reading about Cashman been finally given full control as opposed to being part of a defacto GM by committee drill, he owned up to past mistakes and came clean about how how they want to approach things. This didn't come 10 years ago, but in the last few years when his contract was renewed. Has Vinny and Danny done the same thing?

And no the new approach doesn't involve not spending money. But spending money on the right players. Instead of spending money on over the hill bad character guys like Kevin Brown, they go after CC. Instead of spending zillions on one dimensional players like Giambi they are going after younger better guys like Texiera.

No it doesn't make Cashman a genius, heck yeah, they flaunt their money but are doing it in a smarter way.

And yes they haven't been trading prospects for veterans like they have in the past. You mentioned some of the scrubs that are the 4th and 5th starters. Why is that? Wang gets hurt. In the past, they'd trade a guy like Robertson to obtain a veteran pitcher. This time they sucked it up and worked with what they had. And yeah that is a change for them.

we'll have to wait and see on these guys, but i follow the minors a little and if these guys were so touted im assuming id have heard of some. i hear about guys all the time before they come up and ive never heard anyone mention any yankees studs waiting in the wings.

I posted here a web site that ranked the Yankees farm system 6th in 08, 3rd in 07, couldn't find 2009. When you read about the team the farm system is touted. The fact that you personally aren't hearing about individual minor leaguers on ESPN -- sorry its not happening there for you.

But for you to shoot down their farm system and me to take it seriously you would have to find some actual goods, because everything I know contradicts that. And no that's not becuase I am a Yankee fan. I can write 10 posts of criticisms of Cashman and all the dumb mistakes they have made.

But do I like the fact that they admitted they screwed up and here's what we are going to do better? Yeah. Do they seem to be doing what they said? Yeah. Be cool that's all if the Redskins did the same here. Not because the Yankees are the best run team in baseball but because their dysfunction was very similar to the Redskins and they OWNED up to it. And the funny thing is some here are acting like them winning the World Series weakens that argument -- which seems weird to me, it should IMO mean the converse.

You really think you give Vinny a 60 million cap advantage over the Eagles, we'd be winning the division title practically every year like the Yankees have been doing? Haven't we had in the past huge albeit not that huge advantages over them spending wise? You give Vinny the opportunity to pad that advantage for another 20-30 mill and watch out the divison is consistently ours? I'd love to think so.

[boston skins fan]

Yes the Yankees spend money on high priced free agents but they are playing with in the rules. The fact is that baseball does not have a cap and the yankees take advantage like the skins would if there wasnt a cap.

The yankees have 6 high payed players Arod, jeter, Teixiera, CC, AJ, MO, Some average salarys Matsui, Damon pettite, posada, swish,

and the rest (approx half) young players that came from the farm Aceves, Hughes, Joba, Robertson, Cano, Melky, Garner,Cervelli, Ransom, and more to come next year.

I do agree that they threw money around in the past and made plenty of mistakes Brown, Pavano, Giambi, Johnson, etc.

I agree that baseball teams and football teams are built differently but i think mass skins fan was talking ideologies of the owners. Once stienbrenner stepped back and let casman run the team they spent the money wiser and are trying to infuse youth from the farm system. And if Snieder gets his head out of his a** and hires a football guy and steps back and just signs checks and watches then this team will mostlikley turn around.

[boston skins fan]

yankees starting 8

we'll have to wait and see on these guys, but i follow the minors a little and if these guys were so touted im assuming id have heard of some. i hear about guys all the time before they come up and ive never heard anyone mention any yankees studs waiting in the wings.

/baseball rant

Austin Jackson said to be in the top 5 of prospects in baseball

Jesus Montero is said to be the best Catching prospect in the minors both defensivly and with the bat.

Not to mention what seems like an abundance of pitchers.

[Fletch_Lives59]

Hate them all you want, they are a successful organization.

Not everyone can spend 400 million on just 3 players, oh and STERIODS are illegal in football....:thumbsup:

[BornToHail]

sorry to be the 100th person to say this, but football's a different team sport b/c wins/losses result from a team effort while a baseball game can be dominated by one person.

i get the OP's idea about the owner getting out of the way, but everything else doesn't equate in the analogy.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Cano, 320, 25 hrs and at 2B of all positions, pretty much identical numbers to Jeter in his prime. As I've said, they have focused more on pitching. You seem to focus on position players. It's not an outlandish thought that pitching is at least as important as hitting most say its MUCH more important.

that focus has netted them a few solid relievers. their main pitching core is made up of insanely high paid FAs and some other teams castoffs. and add in a twilight year andy pettite.

do they have any legit starters waiting in the wings? aside from hughes (who we'll just disagree, i think hes been shelled as a starter. he posted an ERA north of 5 and they put him in the bull pen pronto).

Seriously? You are obviously a Redskins fan so you will defend Jason Campbell, Zorn and Vinny at every turn? I read your posts, I think not. If you read my posts on the Skins, am not Mr. Pollyanna that defends the Skins on everything, far from it.

But unlike your posts for example on JC, which IMO are over the top, but I agree JC is mediocre -- nonetheless you know your subject very well -- based at least on these posts, you don't know the Yankees that well or are too biased to be objective IMO.

im not super familiar with your posting history but i didnt mean it in that sense, i was just saying youre a fan of the team so youre going to look on the bright side as regarding certain aspects, mainly the future and your farm club. youve been objective about your team so far, and i havent said otherwise. what i said wasnt meant to make you seem like a "homer", and if it came off that way, i apologize.

What you are saying is party true IMO and partly not. Hughes and Chamberlain at times have looked dominating for stretches as starters and at other teams were big time hittable. They are what 22, 23 respectfully. That's when you generally write pitchers off? But nonetheless, what does it matter if they are dominating in the Bullpen that they were intended to be starters?

Rivera was intended to be a starter too, that's how he came up. I guess when hitters come up to face him, they say to themselves this dude really isn't a reliever, he was a starter in the minor leagues, all those people that say he is the best of all time have it wrong, we don't really count him as a reliever, this dude really is a starter, so his success is null and void.

And for that matter what about David Robertson?, look up his numbers, and yeah he was intended to be a reliever.

im familiar with these kids, especially hughes. he got shelled as a starter and they made him a reliever, it happens all the time. he did well as a reliever, but he was supposed to be a future stud for the yankees starting rotation, and currently it doesnt look like he will. and im willing to concede that hughes was a successful reliever. as was robertson. my original point was about true impact guy, and sorry if we disagree, 7th inning bullpen relievers arent impact guys IMO. their big impact players are the guys they spend oodles on, and the original 4 (or 3) guys from that mid 90s draft.

rivera started as a setup man if i remember, but i wasnt following baseball anywhere near as closely back then.

Of course they do. But you aren't following my main point which isn't the Yankees don't have lots of advantages, or Brian Cashman is the best GM in the league. Far from it. I don't know how to make myself more clear. Money, money, money, money, money, money helps, helps, helps, helps, and helps big time, big time, big time. The Yankees and Cashman made lots of mistakes. The Yankees are not the best run team in baseball far from it. You keep arguing this as the point in play and am not arguing back.

The point is very very simple. As Boswell pointed out today in the WP, there are parallels with the Yankees and Redskins. Both teams have intrusive owners and have a history of buying big players and mortgaging the future.

The difference is the Yankees LATELY have learned from it. Even before he got sick, Steinbrenner backed off a lot. And clearly you haven't been reading about Cashman been finally given full control as opposed to being part of a defacto GM by committee drill, he owned up to past mistakes and came clean about how how they want to approach things. This didn't come 10 years ago, but in the last few years when his contract was renewed. Has Vinny and Danny done the same thing?

And no the new approach doesn't involve not spending money. But spending money on the right players. Instead of spending money on over the hill bad character guys like Kevin Brown, they go after CC. Instead of spending zillions on one dimensional players like Giambi they are going after younger better guys like Texiera.

No it doesn't make Cashman a genius, heck yeah, they flaunt their money but are doing it in a smarter way.

And yes they haven't been trading prospects for veterans like they have in the past. You mentioned some of the scrubs that are the 4th and 5th starters. Why is that? Wang gets hurt. In the past, they'd trade a guy like Robertson to obtain a veteran pitcher. This time they sucked it up and worked with what they had. And yeah that is a change for them.

back to the comparisons with the skins, i think the biggest difference, as stated in this thread already, is the money aspect. youre saying that the yankees are learning about not dealing away the future for the present. the skins currently deal away picks for the present (same concept). but whereas that will hurt the skins (as there is a cap and no recouping draft picks) the yankees are able to get around that with their money.

the yankees have been dealing the future away for awhile, and they always contend dont they? has it really hurt them in the past? theyre always in the mix no matter what course of action they take because theyre able to outspend everybody. im sure as a fan youre glad theyre not dealing the jobas and the phils or the canos, but really would it matter if they did? theyd just fix it by buying another guy, which was czabans point to begin with. theres usually no repercussions for their actions. when the redskins make a stupid move, they pay for it. when the yankees make a stupid move, they PAY for it to get fixed.

I posted here a web site that ranked the Yankees farm system 6th in 08, 3rd in 07, couldn't find 2009. When you read about the team the farm system is touted. The fact that you personally aren't hearing about individual minor leaguers on ESPN -- sorry its not happening there for you.

But for you to shoot down their farm system and me to take it seriously you would have to find some actual goods, because everything I know contradicts that. And no that's not becuase I am a Yankee fan. I can write 10 posts of criticisms of Cashman and all the dumb mistakes they have made.

But do I like the fact that they admitted they screwed up and here's what we are going to do better? Yeah. Do they seem to be doing what they said? Yeah. Be cool that's all if the Redskins did the same here. Not because the Yankees are the best run team in baseball but because their dysfunction was very similar to the Redskins and they OWNED up to it. And the funny thing is some here are acting like them winning the World Series weakens that argument -- which seems weird to me, it should IMO mean the converse.

You really think you give Vinny a 60 million cap advantage over the Eagles, we'd be winning the division title practically every year like the Yankees have been doing? Haven't we had in the past huge albeit not that huge advantages over them spending wise? You give Vinny the opportunity to pad that advantage for another 20-30 mill and watch out the divison is consistently ours? I'd love to think so.

if they really have a legit farm system then i should see some yankees studs coming up in the coming years, i just havent seen it for awhile. when i do or dont, that question will be answered for certain.

and i agree, i wish the redskins would own up and admit theyre failing, but until they do were stuck. and yes i think vinny with 60 mil extra could get us to the playoffs most years. itd be hard to screw that up.

i guess after all this back and forth, my point is that although both teams have operated similarly in the past, it doesnt seem to have been hurting the yankees where its been crippling the redskins. and my answer to that is the money issue. so while im sure youre glad that theyre realizing their errors and dedicating to youth, it hasnt really mattered to them this decade considering their sustained success.

[Skinsinparadise]

that focus has netted them a few solid relievers. their main pitching core is made up of insanely high paid FAs and some other teams castoffs. and add in a twilight year andy pettite.

Wang is in his mid 20s whether he comes back from his injury will see, he won 19 games 2 years back to back.

If you watch their games Chamberlain was hot and cold as a starter, when he was hot he was really hot, Hughes ditto, the season before he got hurt while he was pitching a no hitter into the 5th or 6th I don't recall the exact inning. He's like 22, tough to write him off already.

In the bullpen, if memory serves Hughes ERA was like 1.40, that's pretty dominating much better than "solid", Robertson was a strikeout fiend and pitched well in the post season too. Chamberlain when he pitched in the bullpen the prior year was throwing 97, and looked dominating. Coke looked pretty good, too but I'd classify him as "solid" ditto Aceves who is a starting pitching prospect.

One of these guys will be the closer ultimately in all likelihood

do they have any legit starters waiting in the wings? aside from hughes (who we'll just disagree, i think hes been shelled as a starter. he posted an ERA north of 5 and they put him in the bull pen pronto).

Yep a bunch, I don't have the energy to repeat my post, where I talked about their prospects, but if you click the link from a prior post that touts their minor league system, they get into it.

im not super familiar with your posting history but i didnt mean it in that sense, i was just saying youre a fan of the team so youre going to look on the bright side as regarding certain aspects, mainly the future and your farm club. youve been objective about your team so far, and i havent said otherwise. what i said wasnt meant to make you seem like a "homer", and if it came off that way, i apologize.

Thanks, though no need to apologize, my post on this came across more dramatic then I felt. I was just saying there I am very at ease with criticizing my fav teams. Ha, I criticize more than praise. During the World Series I was whining to my friends on facebook about all the players that were playing poorly, and I was rarely saying good things about the team.

back to the comparisons with the skins, i think the biggest difference, as stated in this thread already, is the money aspect. youre saying that the yankees are learning about not dealing away the future for the present. the skins currently deal away picks for the present (same concept). but whereas that will hurt the skins (as there is a cap and no recouping draft picks) the yankees are able to get around that with their money.

the yankees have been dealing the future away for awhile, and they always contend dont they? has it really hurt them in the past? theyre always in the mix no matter what course of action they take because theyre able to outspend everybody. im sure as a fan youre glad theyre not dealing the jobas and the phils or the canos, but really would it matter if they did?

I think it does matter, in the 80s trading prospects killed them. Granted the money disparity was much bigger later. But yeah signing duds and overpriced aging stars isn't the way to go: Giambi, Pavano, Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, etc. They didn't win championships with them.

Yeah I agree that they can make the playoffs that way, but clearly the model for a championship is to have the best of both worlds, young players, good farm system, with good FA's. If you got the money why not have your cake and eat it too? That's what I don't get about the Yanks from the past and the Redskins now.

If you follow the Yankees closely like you say then you probably do recall that many say what's been killing them is the lack of front line starters and the lack of a bridge to Rivera. They used FA for the front line starters and used their farm system to fortify the bull pen -- I don't think it matters that their intention was to make Hughes a starter -- heck if that dude is shutting teams down in the 7th and 8th, that's huge for them.

When they were winning the World Series, they had a stud closer but also stud set up guys in first Rivera and then Jeff Nelson and Stanton. After Nelson and Stanton left their middle relief was a joke -- regardless of how much money they threw at the problem and they threw a lot.

and i agree, i wish the redskins would own up and admit theyre failing, but until they do were stuck. and yes i think vinny with 60 mil extra could get us to the playoffs most years. itd be hard to screw that up.

The Yankees won 8 division titles this decade and that period is considered by them a failure. I really doubt Vinny would be helping the Redskins win the division 8 out of the last 10 years if he had even more money or for that matter winning 5 Superbowls over the course of 15 years.

Yeah I agree that he would sneak them into the playoffs more. But that's not apples to apples to my point -- apples to apples would be winning the division almost every year, and winning lots of Superbowls.

i guess after all this back and forth, my point is that although both teams have operated similarly in the past, it doesnt seem to have been hurting the yankees where its been crippling the redskins. and my answer to that is the money issue. so while im sure youre glad that theyre realizing their errors and dedicating to youth, it hasnt really mattered to them this decade considering their sustained success.

Depends on how you define success, Torre was fired becuase the Yankee ownership considers playoff appearances alone a failure. Clearly Vinny sees things differently, becuase when he's put on the spot he loves to say the team has been in the playoffs twice recently as a measure that things are good.

Maybe a better way to put this is do I think Vinny is as good a GM as Cashman is NOW with the Yankees, no. They both made similar mistakes but Cashman has come clean about the problem, I haven't heard Vinny do so. And I agree Vinny would do better with more money, but 5 Superbowls in 15 years, winning the division just about every year, I don't see it. But clearly its just a guess so will never know.