Oldfan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Simple fact is like JimmiJo said, we have the benefit of hindsight and its not second guessing when you watch how those decisions had a large negative impact on our ability to win the game. Rule #1: When in the red zone you put points on the board, if its three then so be it, its better than watching Detroit push you down the field 99 frickin' yards because your offensive line couldn't let Portis gain a single yard. Rule#2: Never give a team a 2nd chance to convert a 3rd down, remember other teams aren't like us who run an 8 yard route when we need 9. You guys are pulling these rules out of your hindparts. The calls were fine. They had bad results. It happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Belichick would disagree. He's the most aggressive coach in the NFL in going for it on fourth down at any time in the game. You're comparing the Redskins to the New England Patriots? For pities sake they pushed us 99 yards for a TD how can you have enough confidence in your defense to prevent them from converting the 3rd down? That's a dumb rule. That was a close call. If it works, he's a genius. If it doesn't he's a jerk. It is the rule, this is the NFL and teams are limited to the yardage they can gain on any one play, plus if you get a stupid down field penalty you've handed them the first down. Vince Lombardi once said "only three things can happen when you throw the ball, and two of them are bad", well the same logic applies, there are several things that can happen when you give a team a 2nd chance to convert a 3rd down and most of them are bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetThePointsSoar Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Belichick would disagree. He's the most aggressive coach in the NFL in going for it on fourth down at any time in the game. Belichick also has an offense (and a QB) that you can reasonably have confidence in... ...we really should have called a Portis to Cooley TD pass, that would've fooled 'em.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You guys are pulling these rules out of your hindparts. The calls were fine. They had bad results. It happens. Ever wonder why soooo many people understand these rules? You take the points when you can get them and you make the other team settle for 3 like we should have. The all "guts no glory" style of football in the NFL ends up with the "no glory". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 No, you're right its better to give the defense more time to react to the play when they are all within 11 yards of the ball. The defense has "more time to react" to the stretch play everywhere on the field. It does them no good unless they defend it better than the offense executes the play. Sorry, goal line running is punch it through or go over and apparently we can't do either. I'm sorry too, but you are over-simplifying. The OC has to go with his best judgment of the play that will overmatch the opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Just a feeling on my part.. but it seems that we are giving away 3rd downs like candy. Why would you then, offer them another 3rd down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 The defense has "more time to react" to the stretch play everywhere on the field. It does them no good unless they defend it better than the offense executes the play. So, since our offense was incapable of executing the play, heck was incapable of doing just about anything why call that play? Swallow the fact that they held you, and take the 3, live to fight again. I'm sorry too, but you are over-simplifying. The OC has to go with his best judgment of the play that will overmatch the opponent. His best judgment was wrong, what's that say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Ever wonder why soooo many people understand these rules? You take the points when you can get them and you make the other team settle for 3 like we should have. The all "guts no glory" style of football in the NFL ends up with the "no glory". Ever hear of David Romer? He's an economist who did a study on the fourth down calls in the NFL based on something called the Bellman Equation. From memory...he found that NFL coaches made the wrong decision on something like 900 of 1100 calls. Belichick, whose degree is in economics read the paper and probably understood it. That's why he's the most aggressive coach in the NFL in going for it on fourth down. I suspect Chris Meidt, our Math whiz, has read and understood the impact of the study as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 So, since our offense was incapable of executing the play, heck was incapable of doing just about anything why call that play? Swallow the fact that they held you, and take the 3, live to fight again. Zorn didn't know that this offense could not execute that play better than the Detroit defense -- and neither did you -- until after the play. His best judgment was wrong, what's that say? It says absolutely nothing about the merits of the call. A play call is good or not regardless of the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Ever hear of David Romer? He's an economist who did a study on the fourth down calls in the NFL based on something called the Bellman Equation. From memory...he found that NFL coaches made the wrong decision on something like 900 of 1100 calls. Again with all of this comparing the Redskins to the Patriots. Put Belichick as HC on our team and see if he changes his calls, the reality is that Zorn's call didn't work and the Detroit Lions DID run 99 yards down the field for a touchdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Belichick also has an offense (and a QB) that you can reasonably have confidence in.... Play calls do work better when you have better players, but Zorn has no choice but to work with what he has been given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 ALL plays are less effective on the opponent's one-yard line since the field is compressed. "Slow-developing" doesn't mean squat.Does that work well in Madden? OF...the problem is that the Lions gambled everything on the play being a run....they KNEW what the call was going to be. I don't have a problem going for the score - I thought it the right call. When they lined up I was thinking one of the TEs would chip and drift into the End Zone for a quick score. instead...they run a play against a defense designed to prevent the run. and the Skins had no ability to adjust. that's what bites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Play calls do work better when you have better players, but Zorn has no choice but to work with what he has been given. agree here! but do you think it is the on-hand talent or a culture that doesn't demand excellence and banish failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Zorn didn't know that this offense could not execute that play better than the Detroit defense -- and neither did you -- until after the play. Then he doesn't know his team. It says absolutely nothing about the merits of the call. A play call is good or not regardless of the outcome. Sorry, but I disagree, because some outcomes are predictable...oh sure its the NFL anything can happen and look it did we just got beat by Detroit. I guess that was a fluke, just like the fact that we had 3 FG's in our "win" over the Rams. When you have a weak team...and we do...you take the points you can get, and you don't let the team have 5 downs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 OF.....you are observant when it comes to QBs.....what is your real take on JC's abilities: - recognize & react - touch passes - speed of execution - leadership - ability to exploit quick developing opportunties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Again with all of this comparing the Redskins to the Patriots. Put Belichick as HC on our team and see if he changes his calls, the reality is that Zorn's call didn't work and the Detroit Lions DID run 99 yards down the field for a touchdown. Jim Zorn doesn't have a crystal ball. His call was a good one based on what he knew at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Play calls do work better when you have better players, but Zorn has no choice but to work with what he has been given. Then if you know you're working from a position of weakness don't make calls that depend on a position of strength...again they were the wrong calls. When you're weak you take your points and you make the other team settle for less points then they want, heck who knows maybe he misses his kick. Either way it beats the chance that they actually convert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman69 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I wonder if Sonny bashed him on accepting the penalty after the game? Sam and he both said, "well you have to take the penalty to push it outside field goal range." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Jim Zorn doesn't have a crystal ball. His call was a good one based on what he knew at the time. Its called being able to evaluate what he's working with. IMO he's over-estimating and the proof is in the pudding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Then if you know you're working from a position of weakness don't make calls that depend on a position of strength...again they were the wrong calls. . Enlighten me. How should Jim Zorn have known that his O line would be weaker than the Detroit defense on that fourth and one call? And, how should he have known that our highly ranked defense would blow another one on third-down and thirteen against Detroit's rookie QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 The stretch left is their most dependable play for positive yardage. Last week's result does not signify a trend. so you're arguing that the most dependable play (i.e., most predictable) is the one to call in every situation? or are there more criteria in the decision process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Its called being able to evaluate what he's working with. IMO he's over-estimating and the proof is in the pudding. You're taking cheap shots. it didn't work, therefore it was a bad call. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Enlighten me. How should Jim Zorn have known that his O line would be weaker than the Detroit defense on that fourth and one call? And, how should he have known that our highly ranked defense would blow another one one third-down and thirteen against Detroit's rookie QB? Detroit knew that we run left in short yardage. They crashed the play, it wasn't hard for them. I'm wondering, Oldfan, if you've pulled the statistics from the first 3 games of Joe Gibbs' second season and compared it to the first 3 games of Zorn's second season. Seeing as how you say Gibbs' offense wouldn't work in the NFL, by design, and Zorn's would. ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You're taking cheap shots. it didn't work, therefore it was a bad call. Brilliant. Fine I'm taking cheap shots...tell me then...what has worked? Just to let you know I'll not be holding my breath while I wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiJo Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Detroit knew that we run left in short yardage. They crashed the play, it wasn't hard for them.I'm wondering, Oldfan, if you've pulled the statistics from the first 3 games of Joe Gibbs' second season and compared it to the first 3 games of Zorn's second season. Seeing as how you say Gibbs' offense wouldn't work in the NFL, by design, and Zorn's would. ..... Nice point Zoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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