ES: Campbell needs more shotgun

[Oldfan]

If that’s the case, then why not actually put Campbell in a position to succeed?

I think that's exactly what Zorn has done by giving Jason a foundation in vanilla WCO in 2008. There isn't an NFL team who would want him if his only highly trained skill was throwing from the shotgun. The quickness and discipline required for proficiency in the WCO will serve Jason well if he goes elsewhere and plays in anybody's scheme. And, if he stays here, we can run him under center or in the gun, whichever suits our strategic purposes.

[themurf]

I think that's exactly what Zorn has done by giving Jason a foundation in vanilla WCO in 2008. There isn't an NFL team who would want him if his only highly trained skill was throwing from the shotgun. The quickness and discipline required for proficiency in the WCO will serve Jason well if he goes elsewhere and plays in anybody's scheme. And, if he stays here, we can run him under center or in the gun, whichever suits our strategic purposes.

At the end of the day, the biggest difference between you and I is that you seemingly are only capable of thinking in absolutes. There's no middle ground or grey area.

I can like Campbell and still acknowledge his flaws. Ditto for Zorn. I'm not saying that they have to exclusively run every play out of the shotgun formation. I'm simply suggesting that if Campbell's stats are so much better in a certain formation than in anything else you do, isn't it wise to work that in more than once every five plays?

If Portis gains three yards per carry more going to one side of the offensive line than the other, don't you want to use that to your advantage? To me, it's the same. Zorn has no say in which players he has on the roster. Even so, he went out of his way to endorse Campbell. So it's not a stretch to suggest he thinks Campbell will eventually become the quarterback he envisions. In the meantime, he should be willing to be flexible as Campbell continues to learn the west coast offense and become more comfortable in it - regardless of the formation.

[Oldfan]

At the end of the day, the biggest difference between you and I is that you seemingly are only capable of thinking in absolutes. There's no middle ground or grey area.

I think the biggest difference between us in this discussion is that you jumped to a conclusion based on insufficient evidence and I didn't.

... I'm simply suggesting that if Campbell's stats are so much better in a certain formation than in anything else you do, isn't it wise to work that in more than once every five plays?

You aren't "simply suggesting," you're making a simplistic suggestion: the stats show X, therefore you jump to your conclusion that Jim Zorn is an idiot and you must know more about how to use a QB than he does.

You know, you might be right. But, you need to make a far better case than you have, one showing that you fully understand the complexity of the decision-making process.

[gaskinsfan]

Although most of us on ES will never grace the sidelines of an NFL game, or be able to affect what goes on, it still seems obvious to us when things just aren't right. I couldn't agree more concerning the issues of JC and the shotgun, our playcalling, and even trying to make Orakpo an LB, when he is a natural edge DE.

What you want as a fan is that there is competence in the FO, from ownership, to GM and scouting, and coaching. If you are confident in the FO, you feel that your team will have a chance to be successful every year. If you can't trust the coaches or FO, then you are stuck with mediocre (or worse) year after year.

I still can't understand why the team doesn't adjust more to its players, and leverage their strengths...

[themurf]

I think the biggest difference between us in this discussion is that you jumped to a conclusion based on insufficient evidence and I didn't.

You aren't "simply suggesting," you're making a simplistic suggestion: the stats show X, therefore you jump to your conclusion that Jim Zorn is an idiot and you must know more about how to use a QB than he does.

You know, you might be right. But, you need to make a far better case than you have, one showing that you fully understand the complexity of the decision-making process.

Again, why the over-top-top declarations? Where did I call Jim Zorn an idiot? Are you capable of having this conversation or am I wasting my time?

The numbers, whether you choose to agree with them or not, don't lie. Oversimplifying the entire 2008 season by saying "Well, it was a new system to Campbell, so the numbers shouldn't count" is absurd.

In 2008 the Redskins went 8-8 with Campbell throwing out of the shotgun 20 percent of the time. If you're hoping for 10 or more wins, as you've stated, you better hope this team is willing to use Campbell and the rest of the players in a way that maximizes their abilities. Is that simple enough for you?

[themurf]

Although most of us on ES will never grace the sidelines of an NFL game, or be able to affect what goes on, it still seems obvious to us when things just aren't right. I couldn't agree more concerning the issues of JC and the shotgun, our playcalling, and even trying to make Orakpo an LB, when he is a natural edge DE.

What you want as a fan is that there is competence in the FO, from ownership, to GM and scouting, and coaching. If you are confident in the FO, you feel that your team will have a chance to be successful every year. If you can't trust the coaches or FO, then you are stuck with mediocre (or worse) year after year.

I still can't understand why the team doesn't adjust more to its players, and leverage their strengths...

I didn't even mention Brian Orakpo when I made my initial point, but you're absolutely right. Much like Jason Taylor, Jason Campbell, Antwaan Randle El and many others, this team has taken a guy who has a very defined skill set and asked him to do something completely different. You just hope he has enough god-given ability to make it work. Otherwise ...

[Oldfan]

Again, why the over-top-top declarations? Where did I call Jim Zorn an idiot?

You didn't call him an idiot, but here's a man who has been a pro QB, has more than 30 years of coaching experience, and yet, based on your stat and your conclusion he'd have to be an idiot to miss something so obvious.

Are you capable of having this conversation or am I wasting my time?

I think we're both wasting our time here.

The numbers, whether you choose to agree with them or not, don't lie.

Stats are tools. They can be used or misused.

Oversimplifying the entire 2008 season by saying "Well, it was a new system to Campbell, so the numbers shouldn't count" is absurd.

That isn't what I said, but whatever.

In 2008 the Redskins went 8-8 with Campbell throwing out of the shotgun 20 percent of the time. If you're hoping for 10 or more wins, as you've stated, you better hope this team is willing to use Campbell and the rest of the players in a way that maximizes their abilities. Is that simple enough for you?

Here, you have stated an obvious truth. In your OP, you only thought you were stating an obvious truth.

[Reaganaut]

I've got a fever and the prescription is... MORE COWBELL!

[darrelgreenie]

Campbell was in the gun for 65% of his passes against the Giants. What percentage would have taken Zorn out of your "stupid" range?

I think he should use the shotgun more often then he does now, i don't want to guess at a percentage.

More then he hasin the past and hopefully less then he did against the Giants.

I think the when he uses the shotgun is as important if not more important then how often.

Just last year Zorn himself used to come out in shotgun on 1st down.

But, against the Giants he not only didn't use the shotgun early in the game, he wasn't even passing on 1st down for the most part.

My couch-eye view tells me that the an infusion of 1st down passing and shotgun passing in the early part of the game will help get Campbell and the passing game going.

I think Zorn should have shotgun passes and plays specifically designed for Malcolm, Devin and Sleepy as part of his 'openers' or scripted 1st 15-20 plays.

If the openers are successful then Zorn's playcalling for the rest of the game will likely be more confident.

HTTR!

....the answers are all around him....

[Oldfan]

My couch-eye view tells me that the an infusion of 1st down passing and shotgun passing in the early part of the game will help get Campbell and the passing game going.

As I understand it, the intention of Walsh's script was to find out quickly what the defense was willing to give so that it could be fully exploited. That makes sense to me. I think the script should vary with the opponent.

Dealing with the Giants' pass rush was job one for Zorn. I'm guessing that his script called for running to the left to keep that side of their defense in check while using the TE in protection on the opposite side. I thought he stuck to the run too long to achieve balance, but Norv does the same thing with pretty good results.

[darrelgreenie]

Dealing with the Giants' pass rush was job one for Zorn. I'm guessing that his script called for running to the left to keep that side of their defense in check while using the TE in protection on the opposite side. I thought he stuck to the run too long to achieve balance, but Norv does the same thing with pretty good results.

Yeah after last year i think that Zorn was worried about the Giants pass rush and rightfully so.

And i'm not against sticking with the run, when its working.

But the openers should be your best plays.

I think you've said this yourself OF; balance can acheived by passing early and running late.

Enjoy the game everyone!

Go Skins!!!!!!

[Skinsinparadise]

Dealing with the Giants' pass rush was job one for Zorn. I'm guessing that his script called for running to the left to keep that side of their defense in check while using the TE in protection on the opposite side. I thought he stuck to the run too long to achieve balance, but Norv does the same thing with pretty good results.

The Giants D seems to own Portis by Portis' own admission, I recall him saying that a season or so ago after he finally had a decent game against them. The Giants took care of him again.

I thought the WCO is typically imbalanced in favor of the pass over the run. At least early in the game the play calling was inbalanced in favor of the run, if I recall 6 out of the first 7, 10 out of the first 15 plays. Isn't that Joe Gibbs' game philosophy more so than Walsh -- establish the run first, out physical the opponent on the line of scrimmage, etc.

Reading the NY papers and the Giants comments before the game, they said they expect the Skins to be all about Portis. And we were. And everyone knows we run to the left with Heyer playing -- so am gathering it wasn't too hard for the Giants to game plan against the Skins.

Yeah Zorn knows mountains more football than I do to say the least, am just a fan. I like Zorn the person, seems like a cool guy at least based on what I see and read -- but yeah there is something about him that hits me that he's real rigid which could be a good thing in places but he doesn't strike me as an Art of War, go with the flow, switch gears when warranted, set up the enemy type of mind. And yeah I could be dead wrong on it.

[SkinsFTW]

So do they run the Shotgun regularly during the game or is it just a late 4th quarter against a prevent defense thing?

I don't remember it much early in the game but maybe I am wrong.

[themurf]

So do they run the Shotgun regularly during the game or is it just a late 4th quarter against a prevent defense thing?

I don't remember it much early in the game but maybe I am wrong.

No, you're absolutely right. The 'Skins went to shotgun much more once they were down and time was running out. Which means that the numbers posted by Campbell could be over-inflated because the Giants weren't be nearly as aggressive. That's why I wouldn't mind seeing it sprinkled in a little more throughout the course of the game - to see if he really is noticeably better out of the shotgun (regardless of the situation).

[Oldfan]

Yeah Zorn knows mountains more football than I do to say the least, am just a fan. I like Zorn the person, seems like a cool guy at least based on what I see and read -- but yeah there is something about him that hits me that he's real rigid which could be a good thing in places but he doesn't strike me as an Art of War, go with the flow, switch gears when warranted, set up the enemy type of mind. And yeah I could be dead wrong on it.

I hope Zorn has more confidence in what he's doing than Spurrier. Steve broke and yielded to the pressure to change much too easily. I'm still not sure his scheme could not have been adapted for the NFL. I gave up on Spurrier, the man, not his scheme.

[Skinsinparadise]

I hope Zorn has more confidence in what he's doing than Spurrier. Steve broke and yielded to the pressure to change much too easily. I'm still not sure his scheme could not have been adapted for the NFL. I gave up on Spurrier, the man, not his scheme.

I follow your point and agree in theory. The thing I wonder about Zorn, and I have seen you question the same thing is how good is he on game day, is he prepared to switch gears and adjusting if necessary based on the opponent's play, deal with clock management, and just general game day organizational stuff.

For a guy who talks about staying medium he loses his cool quite a bit on the sidelines.

With Spurrier I got the impression reading about him is he didn't like to spend many hours game planning to the opponent. When I read about Zorn I somewhat get the same impression. Be ready with your scheme and your opponent while be at your mercy, etc. Now, of course they have to spend some time and am sure they do game plan to the opponent. But are they on top of it to the same degree that their opponents prepare for them?

Gibbs yeah had a good scheme for the 80s but if that was all that was needed, I would gather he wouldn't go through the trouble of working around the clock to learn about the opponent's defenses and how to exploit them.

I know you like Belichick and from what I read he likewise loves the studying the opponent's tendencies drill and its a big part of his game planning. Am not saying Zorn doesn't do this, but unless I missed an article and I might have, I have not come across something that depicts Zorn as an obsessive game planner. He's described as an obsessive fundamentals guy, especially in terms of QB play.

Having said all that, I expect a Zorn love fest to start soon -- the Rams, Tampa, the Lions, Chiefs -- it doesn't get any easier than that, we should get on a roll, and the Zorn questioning stuff I would guess will subside. The Campbell haters though I doubt will go away.

[SkinsFTW]

Having said all that, I expect a Zorn love fest to start soon -- the Rams, Tampa, the Lions, Chiefs -- it doesn't get any easier than that, we should get on a roll, and the Zorn questioning stuff I would guess will subside. The Campbell haters though I doubt will go away.

Or maybe not. Campbell actually did good with what Zorn allowed him to do.

Preferring Portis passing on 3rd down over your QB? I dunno about that one, especially when it's your JOB to build his confidence and at this point the entire fanbases confidence in him even playing.

[MattFancy]

JC's stats against the Rams from Shotgun: 14-20 150yds. On 3rd down from shotgun, 7-9 84yds and 5 1st downs.

[Leonard Washington]

we didn't see enough shotgun today.