ES: Campbell needs more shotgun

[Wyvern]

With the QB being such an integral part of the offense -- and impacting so many other offensive players, I think it overly simplistic to reduce this this to some static example like square pegs and round holes. Also, the example of how Jason Taylor was mis-handled at DE doesn't exactly prove the case for our coachs' misuse of Campbell at QB. A QB is more central to the team's game playbook than a DE; tinker with the QB's role and many other team-mates roles change too. Make the QB role a 'square hole' to fit your square peg QB, and note how other players roles change from square to round and how they no longer fit. So making changes at QB is more complicated.

I guess I'm concerned about how many are adopting a philosophy that the team and its existing system must be re-tooled to conform to what we think might work for a QB who still has unanswered questions on how well he performs in any system. Just how much do we take the ball away from an all-pro RB, to give our QB great comfort in passing? Do we decide we no longer need the slower taller WCO receivers and move back to a pre-Saunders Gibbs offensive playbook with speedy smurfs?

All that said, I wouldn't mind seeing more shotgun. The WCO is somewhat flexible that way. Also it would certainly put the spotlight on Campbell and the Oline, in what may turn out to be a 'judgement year' for many of them. It will also be interesting to see how well Campbell & Co. fare against great pass rushing D-lines and defenses no longer stacked against the run.

For some reason, Zorn has not required Campbell to answer these types of questions -- it's early in the season, but maybe it's time Campbell be asked to step up more, by openly committing to the pass and proving to the defense that they have to 'stop Campbell' not just 'stop Portis and Moss'

So, if this was a recipe, I'd say "kick it up a notch", by adding a little more shotgun, but be careful not to add too much and spoil what you were originally starting out to prepare.

[DonMagicJuan]

Tom Brady uses the shotgun a lot!

thats the best thing you could have said.....if one of the best QB's in this league can do it, why cant campbell....screw the system, sometimes as a coach, you gotta adapt to your talent...instead of implanting something that wont work for the players...you must adapt!

[Oldfan]

thats the best thing you could have said.....if one of the best QB's in this league can do it, why cant campbell....screw the system, sometimes as a coach, you gotta adapt to your talent...instead of implanting something that wont work for the players...you must adapt!

You can't use that point persuasively since, in addition to the shotgun spread, Brady also has been in the same system under center since 2001. They use it about 50% the time over the course of the season. Brady also has better numbers in the gun than from under center (most QBs do), but that doesn't convince Belichik to dump his base offense.

[Oldfan]

...So, if this was a recipe, I'd say "kick it up a notch", by adding a little more shotgun, but be careful not to add too much and spoil what you were originally starting out to prepare.

Good post. It's a much more complicated recipe than our fellow posters seem to think. Zorn used the shotgun to good advantage in the Giants game.

I think he overdid the run, given the game circumstances, but I understand why he would run left --trying to keep that side of the defense honest -- while using the TE to help protect on the right side. I think he stuck to that plan too long. I also think Blache's unit could have done more to get after Eli, especially early in the game.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Being smart enough to make an honest assessment of the talent (and limitations) on your roster and building your gameplan around it.

If Jason Campbell is best suited to play in the shotgun, use it more often. If Jason Taylor became one of the best defensive ends in the NFL by playing a certain style, don't ask him, in his 12th season, to completely change his game. If Antwaan Randle El is a mediocre second receiver, but a very good slot receiver, then it should be easy to figure out where you should line him up.

I could keep going, but it's only going to bum me out.

Dude, I waiver on my support of JC. Most of the time I think he's pretty awful but this article makes a lot of sense to me. Especially the portion about Randle El. He did very well in Pittsburgh in the slot and he played a hell of a game against the Giants in that role. Thank goodness for Malcolm Kelly!

I don't know what it's going to take to get Zorn to pull his head out of his ass, but it had better happen soon for his sake.

[mistertim]

Campbell was in the gun for 65% of his passes against the Giants. What percentage would have taken Zorn out of your "stupid" range?

While this is true, remember that there were quite a few passes at the end of the 1st half and near the end of the game that were hurry up from the gun. I think what we need is using shotgun more in regular playcalling during normal gametime. Pretty much every QB will go no huddle shotgun in a hurry up offense.

[Oldfan]

While this is true, remember that there were quite a few passes at the end of the 1st half and near the end of the game that were hurry up from the gun. I think what we need is using shotgun more in regular playcalling during normal gametime. Pretty much every QB will go no huddle shotgun in a hurry up offense.

I watched the game. Zorn used the shotgun as part of his game plan more than he has since he's been here. Maybe he should have used it more and gotten away from the run sooner, but this bellyaching about him not adapting to his talent is weak.

[titus3]

I watched the game. Zorn used the shotgun as part of his game plan more than he has since he's been here. Maybe he should have used it more and gotten away from the run sooner, but this bellyaching about him not adapting to his talent is weak.

I agree Oldfan. Maybe JC needs to be more adept at playing under center and audibilizing into more passing plays if the defense warrants it.

[themurf]

I watched the game. Zorn used the shotgun as part of his game plan more than he has since he's been here. Maybe he should have used it more and gotten away from the run sooner, but this bellyaching about him not adapting to his talent is weak.

Really? I provide stats that show Zorn has only allowed Campbell to throw out of the shotgun roughly 20 percent of the time since he was named head coach and that's all you can bring to the table - passive aggressive comments about bellyaching? Let me just go ahead now and thank you for your contributions to ExtremeSkins. This site is clearly nothing without you.

[pocampo]

Really? I provide stats that show Zorn has only allowed Campbell to throw out of the shotgun roughly 20 percent of the time since he was named head coach and that's all you can bring to the table - passive aggressive comments about bellyaching? Let me just go ahead now and thank you for your contributions to ExtremeSkins. This site is clearly nothing without you.

well at least he is consistent. Old fan thinks we win 13 games this year.

[Wyvern]

Murf -- I, for one, enjoy Oldfan's posts. I may not always agree but they make for excellent reading and food for thought. ...Just as your posts do.

You all are just a few of the regular contributors to ES, who offer us great Redskins-oriented reading material, and challenge us to see all sides of Redskins issues.

If you were giving Oldfan a "left-handed compliment" -- you inadvertantly were more correct than you knew.

[Oldfan]

Really? I provide stats that show Zorn has only allowed Campbell to throw out of the shotgun roughly 20 percent of the time since he was named head coach and that's all you can bring to the table - passive aggressive comments about bellyaching? Let me just go ahead now and thank you for your contributions to ExtremeSkins. This site is clearly nothing without you.

I think Jim Zorn can be criticized fairly on several points, but his use of Campbell in the shotgun isn't one of them.

Doug Farrar took his 2008 DVOA stats on Campbell and the Shotgun and jumped to a conclusion and you did the same with your stats.

Zorn had two main objectives with Jason in 2008. The first was to remodel his mechanics to fit the WCO. The second was to train Jason to run the scheme. Obviously these two objectives were in conflict with putting Jason in the Shotgun Spread since both require repetition in the WCO.

I haven't read you or anyone else saying that we should abandon the WCO and go to the Spread full time, so you need to come up with a theory on how Jason Campbell, in 2008, could have learned to master the WCO mechanics, timing, throwing on rhythm, while spending half of his time in the gun.

For the first time in NFL history, a team, the 2007 Patriots, spent more than half their offensive plays with Brady throwing from the shotgun. That was possible for them because Brady had been trained under center in Belichik's base scheme (Earhardt/Perkins) since 2001. (Brady's DVOA was much better in the gun, by the way).

As I see it, you can't justify griping about 2008; and you can't gripe about the Giants game since Jason was in the gun when throwing 65%of the time. When you have a case, get back to me.

[jtyler42]

You can't use that point persuasively since, in addition to the shotgun spread, Brady also has been in the same system under center since 2001. They use it about 50% the time over the course of the season. Brady also has better numbers in the gun than from under center (most QBs do), but that doesn't convince Belichik to dump his base offense.

Oldfan you like to think in extremes! By Zorn adding more or allowing JC to be in the shotgun more nobody is stating that we scrap our base offense and become a spread passing attack team. In the NFL you pass to score points so early on in games we can use the spread to get points and a lead and later in the game(3rd and 4th quarter) we can go back to our base offense to milk the clock. Like the Patriots, Saints, and Cardinals do and these are probably the best offenses in the NFL

What we're talking about here is the "QB guru" doing things to get/give his QB confidence early on and then the things that he actually wants to do with the offense will come much easier in the long run b/c the offense as a whole and the QB has had success...Right now as an offense it's like we're beating our heads into a wall b/c we haven't had success with what we're doing since week 9 of last yr, and the things that we have had small successes with, the coach doesn't seem to want to accentuate them... A la: utilizing the shotgun, and spread formations more...

[Oldfan]

Oldfan you like to think in extremes! By Zorn adding more or allowing JC to be in the shotgun more nobody is stating that we scrap our base offense and become a spread passing attack team. In the NFL you pass to score points so early on in games we can use the spread to get points and a lead and later in the game(3rd and 4th quarter) we can go back to our base offense to milk the clock. Like the Patriots, Saints, and Cardinals do and these are probably the best offenses in the NFL

I like that plan, but didn't Jason have to learn our base offense in 2008 for that plan to succeed? And, if so, why are you guys ****ing about Zorn not having his QB in the gun in 2008? You wanted him to do both at the same time?

Moreover, he had him in the gun for 17 of 26 passes against the Giants, so what the hell do you expect from him?

[Oldfan]

well at least he is consistent. Old fan thinks we win 13 games this year.

I said 11 to 13, but I didn't like what I saw from our coaches, Blache or Zorn, against the Giants. They will both have to pick up their games to prove me right.

[mistertim]

I like that plan, but didn't Jason have to learn our base offense in 2008 for that plan to succeed? And, if so, why are you guys ****ing about Zorn not having his QB in the gun in 2008? You wanted him to do both at the same time?

Moreover, he had him in the gun for 17 of 26 passes against the Giants, so what the hell do you expect from him?

We might be focusing in on the Giants game a bit too much. I think the wider point of OP was saying that in general it would be advantageous to use Campbell in the gun more. We have only a tiny sampling so far this year, and many of those throws from the gun were during no huddle hurry up, which is pretty much standard when you're down. So it is quite possible that Zorn WILL use shotgun more with JC this season, its just that we really can't know yet for sure, based on one game.

[jtyler42]

I like that plan, but didn't Jason have to learn our base offense in 2008 for that plan to succeed? And, if so, why are you guys ****ing about Zorn not having his QB in the gun in 2008? You wanted him to do both at the same time?

Moreover, he had him in the gun for 17 of 26 passes against the Giants, so what the hell do you expect from him?

He had to learn the base scheme and the base mechanics of the WCO last yr that's true but those mechanics and the principles of the WCO don't change b/c the QB is in the shotgun, even though the QB takes the snap from 5yrds behind the center he still drops back and throws in rhythm...So it's not doing both, as in doing two different things, it's the same thing...

I don't have a complaint as much about last yr as I do this yr...Sure there were times last yr when I didn't understand why JC was under center(the majority of 3rd and long plays), but I want Zorn to come out on 1st down in the spread shotgun and ATTACK defenses, instead of allowing down and distance or the defenses coverage dictate what our offense does! JC has shown that if he is proficient at nothing else he is an extremely proficient passer from the shotgun start out the game this way to get him in a good rhythm and I'd be willing to bet that the results we see from under center would increase as well...

[Oldfan]

We might be focusing in on the Giants game a bit too much. I think the wider point of OP was saying that in general it would be advantageous to use Campbell in the gun more. We have only a tiny sampling so far this year, and many of those throws from the gun were during no huddle hurry up, which is pretty much standard when you're down. So it is quite possible that Zorn WILL use shotgun more with JC this season, its just that we really can't know yet for sure, based on one game.

I disagree. I think the wider point of the OP was to criticize Zorn for not using Campbell in the gun more. My argument is that the 2008 stats, without an understanding of the Jim Zorn's goals for 2008, mislead -- and the one game this season offers that argument no evidence either.

[SilkyDiamonds]

He had to learn the base scheme and the base mechanics of the WCO last yr that's true but those mechanics and the principles of the WCO don't change b/c the QB is in the shotgun, even though the QB takes the snap from 5yrds behind the center he still drops back and throws in rhythm...So it's not doing both, as in doing two different things, it's the same thing...

I don't have a complaint as much about last yr as I do this yr...Sure there were times last yr when I didn't understand why JC was under center(the majority of 3rd and long plays), but I want Zorn to come out on 1st down in the spread shotgun and ATTACK defenses, instead of allowing down and distance or the defenses coverage dictate what our offense does! JC has shown that if he is proficient at nothing else he is an extremely proficient passer from the shotgun start out the game this way to get him in a good rhythm and I'd be willing to bet that the results we see from under center would increase as well...

You sir, understand football in 2009

THAT'S winning football

Shotgun/spread first down put the pressure on the DEFENSE to stop it, then mid 3rd qtr till the end Portis right, Portis left, portis, portis portis

THAT'S WINNING FOOTBALL!!

[jtyler42]

You sir, understand football in 2009

Thank you kind sir! I try!

[jtyler42]

Shotgun/spread first down put the pressure on the DEFENSE to stop it, then mid 3rd qtr till the end Portis right, Portis left, portis, portis portis

Exactly...Even Coach Gibbs in his first tenure here passed almost exclusively in the first half to get points and the lead and then ran it in the 2nd half...

It's not rocket science...It's not called OFFENSE for nothing! We play offense like it's called defense...think about it! LMAO

[Oldfan]

He had to learn the base scheme and the base mechanics of the WCO last yr that's true but those mechanics and the principles of the WCO don't change b/c the QB is in the shotgun, even though the QB takes the snap from 5yrds behind the center he still drops back and throws in rhythm...So it's not doing both, as in doing two different things, it's the same thing...

That's not my understanding. When the QB takes the snap from the gun, he might take a one-step drop or do kind of a shortstop shift. Walsh's term "throwing on rhythm" describes very specific timing based on dropbacks. Zorn, for example, want his QBs to make five even steps on the the five-step drop. Colt was taught to make two long and three quick, so it was a problem to overcome by repetition.

...I want Zorn to come out on 1st down in the spread shotgun and ATTACK defenses, instead of allowing down and distance or the defenses coverage dictate what our offense does! JC has shown that if he is proficient at nothing else he is an extremely proficient passer from the shotgun start out the game this way to get him in a good rhythm and I'd be willing to bet that the results we see from under center would increase as well..

Well, I think you might be right, but I'm not so sure that I'm willing to say that we're right and Jim Zorn, with his experience, doesn't know what he's doing.

[jtyler42]

That's not my understanding. When the QB takes the snap from the gun, he might take a one-step drop or do kind of a shortstop shift. Walsh's term "throwing on rhythm" describes very specific timing based on dropbacks. Zorn, for example, want his QBs to make five even steps on the the five-step drop. Colt was taught to make two long and three quick, so it was a problem to overcome by repetition.

That's true it's not a true 3, 5, or 7 step drop but the routes are still timed...Watch this week at games of QB's in the shotgun on 3 step drop routes(slants, quick outs, hitches, Wr screens)the QB throws almost as soon as he recieves the snap, on 5 step drop routes(10-12 yrd hook/curl, 10-12 yard outs, quick posts)the QB will take two more steps after he recieves the snap, and on 7 step drop routes(deep comebacks, go routes, deep crosses, deep post routes, deep corners) he takes 3-4 more steps and throws...So it's really not that much different it's just b/c of the snap the first 3 steps of the drop are eliminated...

Well, I think you might be right, but I'm not so sure that I'm willing to say that we're right and Jim Zorn, with his experience, doesn't know what he's doing.

I don't think he doesn't know what he's doing, he is just being to rigid and not adjusting to his pupil...Good teachers realize that every student isn't the same, some need tough love, others need hugs and kisses...JC is the type that needs hugs and kisses, Hasselback was the kind that needed tough love...You can't teach both the same way

[Oldfan]

...So it's really not that much different it's just b/c of the snap the first 3 steps of the drop are eliminated...

That's not what Zorn, Montana, Young and Hasslebeck have to say on the topic. All of them have said "I'm not a shotgun guy," or words to that effect. They seem convinced that the WCO approach, once learned, is superior. Since, I've never been in their shoes, my sense is that they might be right: their approach allows more precise timing. I suspect the main advantage of the shotgun spread for the QB is that it's easier to learn.

I don't think he doesn't know what he's doing, he is just being to rigid and not adjusting to his pupil...

Have you ever been accused of being too stubborn to change your mind, only to be proven right? It has happened to me, so I'm careful about challenging people who have more experience than I do. I pick my spots carefully.

[themurf]

I disagree. I think the wider point of the OP was to criticize Zorn for not using Campbell in the gun more.

No need to guess what the focus of the article was. It's spelled out for you in the last two paragraphs:

We already brought up Zorn’s predictable playcalling in regards to the running game earlier this week, but this is the other area that concerns us the most. Zorn went on record repeatedly this summer saying emphatically that Campbell is his guy, while his own front office attempted to acquire several other high-profile quarterbacks.

If that’s the case, then why not actually put Campbell in a position to succeed? Why go out of your way to lobby for management to keep him, if you’re just going to continue to try and force that square peg into the round hole? Either use him the way he’s best suited to help your team win football games or move on to a quarterback who better fits your vision. By continuing this charade, you’re only bringing down everyone involved and ensuring that no one wins – both metaphorically, and in the standings.

Need real need for interpretation. It's pretty much spelled out - even for someone who would like to ignore the numbers sitting right in front of them and just say, "I don't agree, so you're wrong."