Time to go back to the basics on ES (Totally Campbell Related)

[Toe Jam]

edit.

Came down off the caffeine.

[SkinsTillIDie]

I just can't help but feel if we had a younger starting talent O-line and a #2 receiver that this team would have had a winning record last year no doubt.

Exactly. We never had that big receiver to throw fades to in the endzone, a critical component of any successful red zone offense. How many more touchdowns could we have scored rather than field goals if we had a receiver who could make a play like Marko Mitchell did against Baltimore? Kelly will be ideal for that role. We've also seen what type of red zone threat Fred Davis can be on that seam route for a touchdown. Zorn set up that play with the tremendous amount of running in the red zone with Campbell in the first quarter - having Cooley and Davis will create further mismatches in the redzone, particularly with play action passes, making us more productive in terms of putting up 7 rather than 3.

It's only reasonable to assume that if we had the equivalent talent last year (with the same experience, health, confidence they have now), with all the close games we played over the 16 game season, they would have been the difference in at least one game.

Not to mention that we haven't had that big receiver who can break tackles and get yards after the catch with top speed. People talk about having that situational back like a Sproles type to help our offense get big plays, turning a small gain into a 40+ yard play - Thomas has the size and athleticism (6'2, 215 lbs, 4.40 in the 40 and speed that Randle El calls "elite") to make those big plays for Campbell after the catch. Until he proves himself, he'll see single coverage every time so there will be ample opportunity to make big plays with YAC in our short-passing offense.

With 6 legitimate receiving threats rather than 3 in Moss, Randle El, Kelly, Thomas, Cooley and Davis (replacing Thrash and Yoder, two below-average pass-catchers), we'll be able to go to far more 4 WR sets and 2 TE sets, initially key components of the Zorn offense. We didn't have the apt personnel to be consistently effective in either of these formations last year. Our offense will reap the benefits of a year of maturation by the three 2nd round picks, even as they still have a long ways to go before reaching their full potential. They are players that will likely get better as the season progressions and personally, I am excited to watch their growth this year.

...Not to mention that Heyer has always been a better pass protector than Jansen, and Dockery adds 40 lbs and young legs that allow him to actually practice during the week (what a novel idea!). And of course, Randy Thomas is back healthy again, at least for the time being. Our offensive line should hold up better in protecting Campbell this year. It won't be a dominating line by any means, but I think every member of this board would gladly take mediocrity given the mass expectations for disaster. The line can't possibly play any worse than it did at the end of last year, and it has the potential to play better than it did at the beginning of the year - Dockery being a far better run blocker than Kendall, rejuvinating a left side of the line that we can depend upon on 3rd and short once again. And Heyer is a far better pass protector than Jansen, younger and quicker with longer arms.

All that being said, there are a number of components emerging in place that will help Campbell be more effective and productive statistically speaking. Which, again, is all that Campbell-bashers seem to care about. If we win 10 games and JC throws for 3400 yards, with 20 tds and 12 interceptions, is he worthy of franchise quarterback status? I say yes, and it would be interesting to see what the "Campbell haters" feel about that prospect.

[dckey]

It's funny how we say Campbell has not showed us anything consistently. I make this arguement time and time again Joe Flacco threw 14tds and 12 ints and led his team to the AFC championship Campbell was better than that and we dog him. Out of the 8 losses Campbell was at fault on 4 of them. The other 4 we were leading and the DEF let them come back or Zorn made some stupid decision like give the ball to Sellers instead of Portis. Please for all you Cambell haters please explain how this is his fault????

[ShepSkins]

All that being said, there are a number of components emerging in place that will help Campbell be more effective and productive statistically speaking. Which, again, is all that Campbell-bashers seem to care about. If we win 10 games and JC throws for 3400 yards, with 20 tds and 12 interceptions, is he worthy of franchise quarterback status? I say yes, and it would be interesting to see what the "Campbell haters" feel about that prospect.

When is this going to happen, leading the team to 10 wins and throwing 20 td's? How much of the team has to change or RAISE their game to JC's level before this happens?

That propect would be wonderful !! Just tell me how many more years I have to wait for it?

[dckey]

Please Shepskins explain what did Campbell do in the losses to STL, CIN, DAL, 49ers. We were winning all those games in the 4th quarter except CIN when he brought us back and Zorn decided to give the ball to Sellers. He led us and we bash him like he is the worst QB in football. He is not elite but do we need an elite QB.

[TSO]

Here we go again...

It's a shame, rocky52 had some good points.

My thoughts exactly.

Shoot, post #28. That means that this will never get read, as most will bypass it looking to briefly scan the other so very thoughtful one-line posts, mindlessly spewed so effortlessly after becoming a constant in their offseason, endless badgerings.

How about this. If you've posted in 10 other Campbell-centric threads in the last couple of weeks, just skip this thread. Move on. We've read your arguments, we've read your obscene negativity and the vast majority of us are sick of it.

Thanks Rocky52Mc, I appreciate it. It's a shame that there aren't more posters that will exceed even a 100 word limit, or even - gasp - contribute something that hasn't been expressed ad nauseam by themselves or others on this board.

This post is also on point. The OP and Post #28 used to be the norm around here.

[Toe Jam]

My thoughts exactly.

He did. Only part I have a real problem with is where he says people are jumping ship over the 1 for 7 thing.

I don't think that's true. I think a lot of people have just about had it with him because of the past couple of years and not just one game.

[Smoot Point Really]

This was worthy of a new Campbell thread? This isn't new perspective. Also, pretending people are suggesting Colt as the starter to make their arguments sound more absurd is pretty weak. I'm thinking if Campbell shows nothing in preseason AND lays an egg in NY you have to consider Collins. I believe those who want to pull Campbell now to be hasty. However, this isn't inappropriate given his performances.

[Toe Jam]

With 6 legitimate receiving threats rather than 3 in Moss, Randle El, Kelly, Thomas, Cooley and Davis (replacing Thrash and Yoder, two below-average pass-catchers), we'll be able to go to far more 4 WR sets and 2 TE sets, initially key components of the Zorn offense.

I hope you're right about this one. I still don't know how much we can really expect from Kelly, Davis, and Thomas.

Have you seen something that makes you optimistic? So far they seem about average.

[Smoot Point Really]

It's funny how we say Campbell has not showed us anything consistently. I make this arguement time and time again Joe Flacco threw 14tds and 12 ints and led his team to the AFC championship Campbell was better than that and we dog him.

Flacco was a rookie... Campbell is in his 5th year. Flacco has the potential to be a Franchise QB. Hope for Campbell is fading for some, gone for others.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Thanks for letting us know you're one of "those". Yeah, you know what I mean.

The poster who thinks he's elite and what he has to say is ultimately better than what everyone else has to say. Sure, there is plenty of noise- but it comes from both sides.

Let's not pretend. We'll cut to the chase. Had the OP, or anyone else for that matter, posted a short thread expressing praise for JC with very little in the way of content, you likely would not have taken the time to criticize it. On the other side, if a JC detractor had posted a long, thought out post with valid points, you would have dismissed it. It's not about content unless the poster is agreeing with you.

I'm glad you bring something to the table. Your posts are a thrill to read. Refreshing. But don't act like you're criticizing posters for the greater good when you're really only doing it because they have a different opinion.

I strongly agree with you that there is plenty - too much - noise coming from both sides. I've been (mostly) silently critical about the positing tendencies of many here. It's the repetitious positing of the same thing in so many threads that I feel has diluted the quality of diversity of this messageboard. There are many posters, not just on the JC issue but really, every issue, that need to have their argument read in seemingly every possible thread. They post so much that their arguments become tired, arguments that dwindle down to simple one-liners that sarcastically or snidely present some vitriolic statement for or against a player/coach/idea.

I don't dismiss ideas on this board. On this particular subject, of course I know that Jason Campbell has issues. I don't believe he'll ever be an elite quarterback, and I think we'll probably have to overpay him in the end to retain his services. I can easily name 10 quarterbacks that I feel Campbell will never surpass in production. However, it's the type of nonsense that can be evidenced by suggestions on trading Campbell for a 5th round pick, or two-line claims suggesting that Campbell has no future as an NFL that I feel exemplify a certain lack of post quality on these boards now more than ever. I chose this thread because it was convenient: I started writing my post when I saw that there hadn't been a reply yet. By the time I had finished, there had been 26 posters contribute before I replied. What can I say.

I don't think what I have to say is better than what everyone else has to say, not at all. But if every poster put in as much time and effort into explaining their thoughts/reactions/beliefs, this board would be filled with far more comprehensive discussion. I don't post in many threads because I feel like it's rare when posters will take the issues as I present them and counter with reasoned, well-thought out arguments. I hate discussing terms in absolutes - like those that simply state that Kelly will never be healthy (or, conversely, "I'll believe it when I see him do it for a full season") - what's there to counter with those too close minded to argue and see both sides of a potential issue? For example, it's impossible to argue with posters who use some statistics to verify their beliefs while completely dismissing other equally-relevant numbers. I feel like that's been an all too common theme in many of the pro/anti Campbell threads.

And you're right about me not criticizing a positive-JC thread that is short in content. But that's only because if I read the first post in a thread and it isn't a good one, I simply won't post in the thread. I'll leave the criticism of threadstarters to those that should do so - i.e. the moderators and long-time vets of the board.

[Smoot Point Really]

As for post 28... A lot of words don't make a great post. Flawless logic makes a great post. Defending Campbell by comparing his numbers to Roethlisberger is a bit fanatical. If Campbell had led this team to 2 Super Bowls, you'd hear a lot less complaining.

[Toe Jam]

I strongly agree with you that there is plenty - too much - noise coming from both sides. I've been (mostly) silently critical about the positing tendencies of many here. It's the repetitious positing of the same thing in so many threads that I feel has diluted the quality of diversity of this messageboard. There are many posters, not just on the JC issue but really, every issue, that need to have their argument read in seemingly every possible thread. They post so much that their arguments become tired, arguments that dwindle down to simple one-liners that sarcastically or snidely present some vitriolic statement for or against a player/coach/idea.

.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post that was (ironically) not very well thought out.

I think that a lot of the bashing back and forth is really starting to create serious friction amongst the fan base. What I should have taken from your post is that there is a way to present arguments and way to not present arguments.

For example (and I'm not trying to make this thread about the state of ES), there were at least a dozen Jason Campbell threads today. Out of all of them, maybe two or three were worth reading. This thread is one of them. It was nice to see a different side to the arguments.

I'm kind of stuck in the middle with my opinion on JC right now. I'm craving a championship. And I, like many others, are impatient with what seems to be mediocre quarterback play. It's not a new thing with this team. It always feels like we're sorely lacking at the QB position and maybe that's why the bar for JC has been set so high. It should be a testament to his abilities that we're all expecting great things from him whether we've seen them or not. I know what JC is capable of. I've seen it in spurts and flashes.

But I would love to see some consistency. I think if JC is more consistent then maybe the rest of the offense will fall in line. Or, perhaps, the rest of the offense is the problem. Admittedly, that's a possibility. But there's always the "politics" of it and somebody has to be a scapegoat.

Is that person Jason Campbell? Or is the criticism justified? The fact I can't make up my mind either way leads me to believe that it's going to be another year before anyone can really know.

[Smoot Point Really]

Actually, posts with less words that get right to the point are more favorable. Only use a lot of words if you have an argument to defend and want to preempt your critics.

[Toe Jam]

Actually, posts with less words that get right to the point are more favorable. Only use a lot of words if you have an argument to defend and want to preempt your critics.

Or we could just respond in all smileys.

[dckey]

ToeJam

That is the best statement I have read. I think we are looking for a scapegoat in our mediocre play. My only issue is we constantly talk about the QB but not the other issue's like I never seen a thread about how bad the Def plays when to me we lost a few games because of our Def. It was a quote by Bill Parcells that I always liked "I don't care who is the #1 ranked Def because they look at yards. The #1 Def to me is who ranks the highest in points against and in critical times during the game what Def steps up and creates that turnover or gets that stop." We as redskins fans should look at every aspect of our team and judge all equally.

[SkinsTillIDie]

I hope you're right about this one. I still don't know how much we can really expect from Kelly, Davis, and Thomas.

Have you seen something that makes you optimistic? So far they seem about average.

Oh, they've definitely been worse than average as far as production went in their first years. Some of my optimism stems from a leap of faith - that's why they call it as such. However, against Baltimore we saw just a glimpse of Kelly's potential. He made an oustanding catch on a ball lofted and overthrown by Collins, utilizing his tremendous size and hands to keep the chains moving. He made a play that no other receiver on our team could make, a play that no one's been able to make in recent memory.

I've been greatly encouraged by numerous reports from the offseason and training camp about how hard they've worked, how much better they look running routes, how much fitter and healthier they look and how much they worked with Campbell in the summer. Additionally, I feel that any player - but no moreso than a wide receiver or quarterback - will see significant growth from their first year to their second. I think that this is because the transition to the pro game as a QB and WR are the most difficult jumps, though that's not to say that any other position isn't extremely difficult as well.

I'm excited just that Kelly, Thomas and Davis will see the field. They mostly weren't even put in the position to make plays last year. Just by being on the field and being the targets of a few plays a game, I think we will begin to see their potential by exploiting their tremendous athleticism. Kelly on deep balls - I was impressed with his speed and ability to beat the Steelers defense on the first play of the game - and in the redzone. Thomas is a threat in between the 20s - we saw a glimpse of his big play potential with his end-around for a touchdown last year (as well as his long touchdown reception called back by a penalty). And Davis, too, showed his redzone potential against the Steelers, how he can create mismatches against linebackers and safeties by being single covered.

If we can get a combined 90 catches from the three of them, I think our offense will see enough growth to make a distinct progression from last year. I certainly don't think that this is unreasonable - if anything, getting 40 catches from Kelly, 40 from Thomas and 10 from Davis would set this board off into another offseason of doubt in their abilities and in their future NFL production. But I think just this minimum would be enough to make our passing offense look substantially better.

Of course, with Moss, Cooley, and Randle El in the slot, we still have our top three pass-catchers from last year, seasoned vets that have proven to be productive. We don't need Kelly or Thomas or Davis to produce as all-pros, we just need them to compliment the offense. We never had a fourth legitimate target and I believe that between the three 2nd rounders, we have the talent to give Campbell more weapons and the ability to create true mismatches on the field, either by going spread or by going to the 2-tight end set. I have faith in Kelly or Thomas against any team's 4th best cornerback, whereas James Thrash for instance didn't have a single physical attribute that he could use to his advantage last season and Todd Yoder is slower than molasses.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post that was (ironically) not very well thought out.

I think that a lot of the bashing back and forth is really starting to create serious friction amongst the fan base. What I should have taken from your post is that there is a way to present arguments and way to not present arguments.

For example (and I'm not trying to make this thread about the state of ES), there were at least a dozen Jason Campbell threads today. Out of all of them, maybe two or three were worth reading. This thread is one of them. It was nice to see a different side to the arguments.

I'm kind of stuck in the middle with my opinion on JC right now. I'm craving a championship. And I, like many others, are impatient with what seems to be mediocre quarterback play. It's not a new thing with this team. It always feels like we're sorely lacking at the QB position and maybe that's why the bar for JC has been set so high. It should be a testament to his abilities that we're all expecting great things from him whether we've seen them or not. I know what JC is capable of. I've seen it in spurts and flashes.

But I would love to see some consistency. I think if JC is more consistent then maybe the rest of the offense will fall in line. Or, perhaps, the rest of the offense is the problem. Admittedly, that's a possibility. But there's always the "politics" of it and somebody has to be a scapegoat.

Is that person Jason Campbell? Or is the criticism justified? The fact I can't make up my mind either way leads me to believe that it's going to be another year before anyone can really know.

I agree with everything you said here. Top post

This surely has to be the year where Campbell makes his definitive case for being our franchise quarterback. I hope with everything I've got that he proves it, that he fulfills his potential and leads us to the playoffs. I believe he can, because what's the fun in rooting for a team with a defeatest attitude? But then again, we've been burned by this franchise so many times in recent years that it's understandably difficult to place any high hopes or expectations on anyone.

On the one hand, everybody wants that elite quarterback, that Tom Brady or Drew Brees or even Phillip Rivers/Jay Cutler. That we were so close to acquiring one (Cutler) makes it all the more frustrating when it seems like Campbell will never reach that level. However, I'm in the belief that although JC will never be elite, I think he has everything that it takes to quarterback this team far. Backed by a top defense and surrounded with good weapons, if there's any year that Campbell can prove his worth, it's now.

[SkinsTillIDie]

As for post 28... A lot of words don't make a great post. Flawless logic makes a great post. Defending Campbell by comparing his numbers to Roethlisberger is a bit fanatical. If Campbell had led this team to 2 Super Bowls, you'd hear a lot less complaining.

It is, but the point that I was trying to make was that great passing stats don't make a great team. Tennessee, Baltimore and Pittsburgh all went extremely far last year with an elite defense and a below average passing attack. Yes, the Cardinals made the superbowl, but only after their defense set a record for turnovers earlier in the playoffs. The Saints, naturally, missed the playoffs.

I get the feeling that even if we win 10 games this year, if Campbell's stats aren't up to par with particular expectations, he'll still be lambasted by many. We may not need Campbell to be significantly more productive than he was last year to get to the playoffs and go far, if our defense is nearly as good as advertised for example. Stats don't tell the whole picture which is why everyone knows that Roethlisberger is a better quarterback than his numbers indicate.

[redskins55]

It's pathetic to see the type of words being spread across on this board. Week in and week out if it's not perfect (which it never is) a good majority of people beat a dead horse with a stick for hours on end. And it's not like these bright idea's come up on a Wednesday morning. These idea's all come to mind, on Sunday's (or in this case, Saturday).

The all out epic debate that is Campbell vs. Colt as the starter on these boards is horrendous. Common sense will tell you that Campbell gives us the best chance to win, and the homer/fanboy in you will tell you to root for Colt to eventually be somebody in this league. Gone are the days when both of these things could happen in harmony. We now live in an Extremeskins society where it's one or the other and if you're on the fence you might get criticized for that as well. There's an all out war between the starter and the young gun who both haven't proved much in either of their positions.

Just because Campbell goes 1/7 for 10 yards in a pre-season game doesn't mean his game has gone down the ****ter. We know what he's capable of doing on Sunday's. When has Campbell EVER gone 1/7 in a game and if you wanna be realistic let's multiply that by 4 quarters. So his stats would have been 4/28 40 yards. That's not Campbell and that's not EVER. So it's moot. It seems almost as though since Campbell had a bad stat line and that Colt has a bad one as well that both types of fans are immediatly pulling the trigger at one another without thinking. Seems like it's only a matter of time before people will start jumping out windows for Chase Daniel too, or wait, does common sense tell you that just because he threw 2 TD's agasint irregular playcalling and defenses that it's not going to happen if you put him behind center come September? So why isn't it the same with Colt? And why not vice versa for Campbell?

Colt Brennan's 1st pre-season game - 9/10 2TD's 0 INT's 123 YD's

Chase Daniel's 1st pre-season game - 6/8 2TD's 0 INT's 58 YD's

Nice stats for their 1st games. Let them have some fans and it's all fun and great. Colt's 1st game, same game, Campbells stats against a better 1st string defense.

Campbell in Colt's 1st game - 5/5 1TD 0 INT's 61 YD's

So you could assume either, Zorn wanted to get Campbell momentum early and often in both of their young careers and did some good open play calling for easy completion or Campbell simply excelled.

Why can't you simply knock it down as a PRE-SEASON GAME? If I had to explain pre-season I'd say ... you put your teams out there and you play the game called experiment. Oh, this game doesn't count? Why don't we try some things we wouldn't "normally" do and see if they work and just see how they go and try to go from there. Maybe one day we will try these sort of things. So you do a 50 yard pass on the first play with a star studded safety in coverage. So you run a fake punt run. So you think about going for it on 4th and goal. All of these are example of **** you do in pre-season. You start things off differently, your plays calls aren't in ANY way complex, and you put people in situations to suprise you. Hey, let's start Tryon out on the right corner position.

So why in the WORLD does Campbell's stat line of 1/7 10 YD's..make you cry BENCH? I know why, because today is one of the only days you've experienced in a while that you see Campbell show some weakness. Maybe you simply are jumping the gun at the first thing you see to express the reasons why we need a new starting QB because you as a feel don't like what you see.

When we're talking winning on Sunday's your best chance is with Campbell. I don't see how you can see it differently with any of these QB's on our roster. Campbell is far from perfect, but Colt is far from average. This offense does NOT need a QB throwing 3 TD's a game but simply a QB that can game manage and assist the run game while the defense holds on the offenses at bay. If we can put up 3 TD's a game either 2 by ground or 2 by passing then we will be fine and we are only getting closer to this step each season, now is Campbell's time to shine and we should leave it that way. Either Campbell gets his extension or he doesn't, and either way I believe ALL fans should be happy with that scenario at this point in time.

Great post!!

I'm only concerned with stats if the play on the field was bad. Campbell's bad days I can stomach but most of the QBs in the league's bad days are horrible. Campbell's bad days might be 10/20 for 150yds 0TD 0 INT.. I'll take that all day over a QB who's bad day is 20/35 300yds 1TD 3INTs

[THUNDERDOME]

Until we get a Brady Or Manning type QB, this type of thing will always happen. People will whine and complain. Just let it fly man.

Unless a player is a consistant probowler, people are always gonna want someone better.

[SkinsFTW]

Great post!!

I'm only concerned with stats if the play on the field was bad. Campbell's bad days I can stomach but most of the QBs in the league's bad days are horrible. Campbell's bad days might be 10/20 for 150yds 0TD 0 INT.. I'll take that all day over a QB who's bad day is 20/35 300yds 1TD 3INTs

Campbell bad day is any team with a pass rush in 2008.

PITT: 24-43 206 0 2

NYG: 23-38 232 0 1

Balt: 21-37 218 1 2

The thing is, his good days aren't very good.

NO 24-36 321 1 0

AZ 22-30 193 2 0

Dal 20-31 231 2 0

Det 23-28 328 1 0

Those are the best days in his career, and the passes are 90% dumpoffs and a lot of completions create 4th down.

[Mark The Homer]

Great post!!

...

Since we're going back to basics on ES...

11. Please do not use the “Quote” feature to quote huge blocks of text or pictures.

If you would like to respond to the contents of a particular post, simply quote the sentence or idea that you're commenting upon, not necessarily the entire post. It wastes space on the database and unnecessarily extends and clutters threads.