Spaceman Spiff Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 First let me say this...this isn't a Campbell/Collins/Brennan/Daniel thread, so please don't treat it as such. If you want to discuss why Campbell sucks and why you now prefer Daniel over Brennan, go check out 50% of the front page. That said, I will say this...even Campbell's most ardent defenders have to admit that he does not have a firm grasp on the starting job. After his poor performance last night, his backers are clutching to some really weak arguments this morning. Even a fan from another team who knows virtually nothing about the Skins could look at this board and surmise in a matter of minutes that Campbell is in the hot seat. That cannot be disputed and brings me to my breakdown and question... So I'm 27 years old. My earliest memories are of Theisman breaking his leg and Jay Schroeder...I remember my dad didn't like him. I remember the QB controversy between him and Doug Williams...I have faint memories of 42-10. Unfortunately, Williams didn't last too much longer after that. I remember Rypien who IIRC had some inconsistencies before putting it all together for the 91 team. He was done after the 93 season in Washington after two poor seasons following the Superbowl. I remember being excited about Heath Shuler. Let's not dig that up. I remember Frerotte's F'real. Hostetler, Jeff George...whatever. I liked Brad Johnson. I thought Ramsey was gonna be the man. Brunell. And now Campbell. The juxtaposition has been interesting...while we've been completely unstable at QB since Rypien, we've had a lot of great players come through and be mainstays here. We've got pretty much unlimited resources. While we do have a salary cap and figure out ways to manipulate it that boggle the mind, there's no limit as to how much we can spend on scouting, drafting and coaching. In the meantime since Rypien, our NFC East rivals have drafted and produced franchise QB's. The Cowboys have had Aikman who has already made it to the Hall of Fame. Think about that...he was drafted in 1989, he won 3 titles, Arrington knocked him into retirement and he's been elected into Canton. In the meantime we've been routinely screwing the pooch at the QB position. Currently they have Romo sits to pee...it hasn't always been easy for him, but he's put up some big numbers. I think we would all be thrilled with a QB who has a 94.7 rating. The Eagles have McNabb who has tortured us for years. I hate the Eagles, but I can respect McNabb. He's had a great career. The Giants have Eli...he's already taken them to a Superbowl. So why the **** is it so hard for the Washington Redskins to scout, draft and develop an elite QB? How come we haven't been able to do this since 1993? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter_R Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 So why the **** is it so hard for the Washington Redskins to scout, draft and develop an elite QB? How come we haven't been able to do this since 1993? Have the Redskins ever done it? I'd argue that Jurgensen was the last "elite" qb the Skins have had, as opposed to one or two-year wonders, and they didn't even draft him. Simple answer. Elite qbs (players) don't grow on trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 Have the Redskins ever done it? I'd argue that Jurgensen was the last "elite" qb the Skins have had, as opposed to one or two-year wonders, and they didn't even draft him.Simple answer. Elite qbs (players) don't grow on trees. Theisman? You bring up a good question, have the Skins ever done it? I dunno...but I'd even be perfectly happy with getting someone young with upside, like the Saints did with Brees. Wait, we could have had him too, right? :doh: If you want to push it back to Jurgensen it seems like every franchise other than us has had one good one come through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Have the Redskins ever done it? I'd argue that Jurgensen was the last "elite" qb the Skins have had, as opposed to one or two-year wonders, and they didn't even draft him.Simple answer. Elite qbs (players) don't grow on trees. If they did I would plant one and be the richest SOB on earth, the Redskins would always get the best though, and the Cowboys, well you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 The reason that it's so hard is that the QB's performance is highly dependent on the performance of his teammates and the scheme he plays in. There aren't many talent evaluators able to separate the QB from his team and scheme. Also, there aren't many QB coaches like Jim Zorn who can give the QB much help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirClintonPortis Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Sonny came in a trade from Philly....so that leaves Slingin' Sammy as the only 'homegrown' elite QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I think a lot of teams have the same problem. Now out of those teams, I think the Skins have one of the worst front offices when it comes to this kind of stuff. There are no-brainers at other positions when drafting like a Sean Taylor. But then they are others whiff on a Carlos Rogers while skipping on Shawn Merriman (about a dozen teams made that mistake). I'm sorry. But seeing a Vinny Cerratto on Redskins Nation with Larry Michael just makes me sick to my stomach. There you have two guys who just don't get it. They don't get how to build a franchise. They don't know how to handle themselves professionally. They don't seem to understand the difference between the team run here in Washington, and the teams run New England, Pittsburgh and Indy. Teams that draft well, manage the cap well, sign blue collar free agents and make trades that fleece the other team. Even Joe Gibbs couldn't overcome the ownership/front office poison trap. If Zorn gets fired during or after this year. Vinny should have already packed up his office and been long gone. Bottom line. Its so hard to do all this because the people that are doing it.....just ARE NOT GOOD AT IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 They don't get how to build a franchise. They don't know how to handle themselves professionally. They don't seem to understand the difference between the team run here in Washington, and the teams run New England, Pittsburgh and Indy. . There seemed to be a lot of good young talent on the field wearing our colors last night. I haven't seen that lately in NE, PIT or IND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD.C RedskinsFan Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Troy Aikman and Eli Manning were both drafted first overall and Donovan McNabb was 2nd overall. Not saying 1st and 2nd overall is just magic but I'd like to see what those teams would do if that were taken away from them. Would they have been able to make magic happen in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myzhi Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 If you want to draft and develop a franchise QB, get one that's rated Top 10. After that, percentage drops big time and it's really a crap shoot. Get a good QB and you will be in playoff / SB run for a decade. W/o one, you are looking at mediocrity. That's why I saw lets keep on drafting QB every 4 years until we land one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 The QB position is one that's hard to properly evaluate beforehand. For every Peyton Manning, there's a Ryan Leaf (maybe 2). The Patriots lucked out with Brady, and I've read more than a few articles that when that as the pick was coming up, the Pats FO was debating between Brady and Tim Rattay......yeah, imagine how the Pats franchise would look right now if they had screwed up that "meaningless" 6th round pick? And sometimes, a franchise QB isn't all it's cracked up to be. We won 3 Superbowls with 3 different QB. The Dolphins never won one with Marino, and the Eagles are ringless with McNabb. Would a franchise QB be nice? Of course it would, it would certainly make our lives as fan easier. But let's be honest, how long would a franchise QB last in this town, where the most popular player is always the backup (or 3rd/4th string) QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 There seemed to be a lot of good young talent on the field wearing our colors last night. I haven't seen that lately in NE, PIT or IND. All those teams do is win playoff games and contend for Superbowls. I think maybe you're not seeing things clearly. One of those teams won like 11 games with an untested backup QB. When we start blowing out lesser teams instead of playing to their level. When we start winning big time games on a national stage. Then maybe you'll be right. I've heard the same good young talent stuff forever. Results talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 All those teams do is win playoff games and contend for Superbowls. I think maybe you're not seeing things clearly. One of those teams won like 11 games with an untested backup QB. When we start blowing out lesser teams instead of playing to their level. When we start winning big time games on a national stage. Then maybe you'll be right. I've heard the same good young talent stuff forever. Results talk. I thought you were talking about NOW, not the past. Those teams you mentioned haven't had an influx of good young talent in quite a while. If you couldn't SEE the talent on the field last night, well, that's another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 But let's be honest, how long would a franchise QB last in this town, where the most popular player is always the backup (or 3rd/4th string) QB? Well I think that epidemic stems from the fact that we've never had a franchise qb. I don't think this town would know what to do with a franchise qb because they wouldn't know what else to complain about. What good is Washington without a QB controversy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyriggins Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Gibbs2 killed us at the quarterback position, bringing in Brunell and then taking a gamble on Campbell with a 1st round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostofSparta Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Well I think that epidemic stems from the fact that we've never had a franchise qb. I don't think this town would know what to do with a franchise qb because they wouldn't know what else to complain about. What good is Washington without a QB controversy? Man would this site be boring without the 80,000 threads about QB's, eh? I'm also not sure how lnog it's going to be until we have a coach willing to take a gamble on a potential franchise QB. Gibbs was the best shot, but Gibbs has never liked rookies, so that option was out. Pretty much any coach other than Joe "3 Lombardies" Gibbs has the potential to be fired after a season or 2, so there again is the continuity problem we've had since Snyder took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD.C RedskinsFan Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Joe "3 Lombardies" Gibbs I'm sure that firing Gibbs would be the closest that the town would possibly get to trying to fire Snyder. Is that riot worthy? And it's almost like going to your job one day and saying to your boss you know what? I'm tired of your foolishness... you're fired (and then it actually happening) Edit: Not saying that they would be able to accomplish it, just that something of that magnitude might get certain people really thinking about how they could accomplish it. Regardless of who you are if you get enough people against you, "things" start to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyriggins Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I agree with most of you Ghostofsparta, Snyder is a negative in so many ways, I have to just shake my head when I actually hear someone say he is a good owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCranon21 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Because we don't have stability in our FO and scouting department. I don't understand why this is, but it seems like our front office is incompetent at the QB position. It's always been like this since I can remember. Also bringing in a coach every two years and whoever is the starting QB has to learn this coaches philosophy, play book, and terminology. You look at teams like the Titans, Colts, Pats, and Eagles, they keep the same philosophy in tact. Jeff Fisher in his 15th year as the Titans/Oilers head man, the Colts just recently replaced their head coach, but kept the philosophy the same(exit Tom Moore, but the coaching staff remains the same). But in my honest opinion, it has to do with what is retained here, instead of bringing in this guy and that guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Gibbs2 killed us at the quarterback position, bringing in Brunell and then taking a gamble on Campbell with a 1st round pick. So Gibbs killed us by bringing in a QB who took us to the playoffs and attempting to draft a franchise QB that may or may not pan out... Yet Spurrier gets a free pass on killing us at the QB position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Daniel Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyriggins Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 So Gibbs killed us by bringing in a QB who took us to the playoffs and attempting to draft a franchise QB that may or may not pan out... Yet Spurrier gets a free pass on killing us at the QB position?[/QUOTWell it is one extreme to the other, but Spurrier would pull his quarterback for poor performance and Gibbs2 would NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 He pulled Ramsey... And Brunell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwsleep Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Because the difference between college and pro at the QB level is greater and harder to track than at any other position. Do you really think we're the only team with this problem??? Come on. The Vikes just signed Favre. How's Vince Young looking? Anyone seen Ryan Leaf lately? For what it's worth, Gus Ferrotte and Sage Rosenfeld are still in the league and in all probability will get meaningful snaps this year. See also Stan Humphrey and Trent Green. We've had some decent QB talent in that time, but not always kept it. But I'll admit that at the time, letting those guys go seemed the right move: good QBs are hard to hold; lots of teams have picked up QBs we've drafted. Whatever. Maybe JC will make the leap; maybe it's on to the next savior of DC. But it shouldn't be a surprise that it's not easy to find a QB--all over the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliforniaSkin Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 So Gibbs killed us by bringing in a QB who took us to the playoffs and attempting to draft a franchise QB that may or may not pan out... Yet Spurrier gets a free pass on killing us at the QB position? I doubt that any 'skins fan is going to give Spurrier a 'free pass,' but the fact is that Gibbs had final say on all personnel decisions and he overpaid Brunel. Campbell hasn't worked out so far and may never will. We've drafted 3 QBs in the first round since Gibbs I and so far we're 0-3 (Shuler, Ramsey, Campbell) but only one of those was at the top of round - (not that top 5 picks always work out by any means, Leaf, Alex Smith, Joey Harrington, Vince Young instantly spring to mind and there are others). One of the biggest problems is that QB is such a mental position, but it doesn't require intelligence in the normal sense of the word. Wonderlic scores, which are a very good approximation of IQ, are not well correlated with on field success. Dan Marino had a terrible score. Eli Manning greatly outscored his brother and noone would claim he makes better football decisions. And all the physical skills in the world don't make a good QB - see George, Jeff. On the other hand most of the true franchise QBs are 1st rounders. I'm sure I'll forget some but when I think of franchise QBs the ones that come to mind are Brady and Manning of course, but also Favre, Brees, Rivers, McNabb, Roethlisberger, Palmer probably, maybe Rodgers, Ryan & Cutler. Other than Brady, all were first round picks except Brees and Favre who were taken in the first couple of picks of the 2nd round. The only other QB I can think of who both might be considered a franchise QB and was picked late is Matt Hasselback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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