Oh No Dey Didn't (Suppose no OL/DL in the Draft?)

[WARPATH '82]

We are still paying for past mistakes. There were mistakes made in building the roster before Joe Gibbs came back and he made the situation worse by trading too many draft picks away and filling our roster with overpaid players of average ability.

After the 2006 season (5-11), the front office has been doing fairly well, in my opinion. They are trying to get younger and stronger.

The trade for Jason Taylor bothered me, and the rumored trade for Chad Johnson was worrisome, but otherwise, I'm okay with the direction.

Some sense of direction has returned...I agree, but we are waaaayy behind and it wont be a quick fix thats for sure.

[Oldfan]

Some sense of direction has returned...I agree' date=' but we are waaaayy behind and it wont be a quick fix thats for sure.[/quote']

I keep having to remind myself that we have 32 average teams in the NFL.

We need a passing game to reach the next level. We haven't had a good one for a long time.

[ECU-ALUM]

There is no position player worth foregoing OL or DL. Not even Micheal Crabtree. If they ignore the OL or DL, I think we're looking at a 6 wins or fewer next year.

Agreed our lines need some serious help.

[pjfootballer]

Good teams can draft BPA. Average to bad teams have to draft for need.

[Oldfan]

Good teams can draft BPA. Average to bad teams have to draft for need.

Why? Will you elaborate?

[Mursilis]

I was simply stating a fact: the Skins are emphasizing BPA.

Fact is, that in 2004-2006, They were routinely trading up to fill positions of need -- compound errors in my book.

So what you meant was, they're emphasizing BPA now, but haven't in the past - correct?

So what are your thoughts on the idea by some that the 'skins will go with a QB at No.13? Good/Bad/Fills a pressing need?

[Mursilis]

Why? Will you elaborate?

I'm guessing he thinks good teams have sufficient talent to allow high-round rookies to sit and not contribute much their first few years, and thus good teams can afford to go BPA, because they have few pressing needs. I'm reminded of last year when the Colts took Anthony Gonzalez (WR) with a first rounder. A team with Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, and Reggie Wayne was picking a WR in the first round? Really?!? But then, they've been to the playoffs for 7+ straight years, so they must be doing something right.

[Oldfan]

So what you meant was, they're emphasizing BPA now, but haven't in the past - correct?

That's right.

So what are your thoughts on the idea by some that the 'skins will go with a QB at No.13? Good/Bad/Fills a pressing need?

Those speculating at positions the team might be looking to fill are on the wrong track. The recent evidence points to the Skins drafting the BPA with need secondary.

I personally hope they land an OT, but if they spot another Jay Cutler and draft him, I'd be very happy.

[Mursilis]

Those speculating at positions the team might be looking to fill are on the wrong track. The recent evidence points to the Skins drafting the BPA with need secondary.

To mixed results so far. The 2008 draft yielded one late round gem (Horton) and a whole bunch of question marks. I'm not jumping on the "Kelly/Davis/Thomas are all busts" bandwagon - it's far too early for that - but so far they're not impressive. It's wait and see on those three top picks.

I personally hope they land a an OT, but if they spot another Jay Cutler and draft him, I'd be very happy.

Of course we won't know if a QB is "another Jay Cutler" for 1-3 years, unfortunately. I'm going to be annoyed as all get-out if they draft a QB, but I reserve the right change my opinion later!

[Est.1974]

If we tried to trade out of #13 but couldn't, would that not lead us more towards taking BPA instead of need ? Clearly, there are a couple of exceptions ( QB / TE ), but the #13 pick holds too much value doesn't it ?

Would you be in favour of using the #13 pick on a 'reach' OL / DL rated in the mid-20's ( pick-wise ) as he is the best available for one of those two specific positions of need ?

The 'reach value' of that kind of move would equate to a second round pick.

I don't like the idea of reaching too far if we end up going at #13.

It might not be popular, but I see us going LB either way.

[Oldfan]

Of course we won't know if a QB is "another Jay Cutler" for 1-3 years, unfortunately.

I've been a student of QB mechanics for some time. The athleticism, combined with slick mechanics of a Jay Cutler takes about 15 minutes to spot. You never know about the mental aspects of the game, but I don't think that Jim Zorn will have any trouble evaluating QB talent in the draft.

[Oldfan]

If we tried to trade out of #13 but couldn't' date=' would that not lead us more towards taking BPA instead of need ? Clearly, there are a couple of exceptions ( QB / TE ), but the #13 pick holds too much value doesn't it ?[/quote']

Generally, the argument to take the BPA weakens with lower draft picks because the accuracy goes down.

Would you be in favour of using the #13 pick on a 'reach' OL / DL rated in the mid-20's ( pick-wise ) as he is the best available for one of those two specific positions of need ?

That's reaching too far.

[Laron Burgundy]

Valuing a QB even over one of the best safeties ever is 'falling' as a fan how?

BTW, Big Ben may have STATISTICALLY had only one great season but here he is, in his third AFC Title game and this time, without Bettis or a healthy enough running back corps and an offensive line that has really suffered from the loss of Faneca (as well as poor play.) And he's won a SB. It's not all on him, of course but there's a reason he has been the starter there since almost day one.

One can only imagine if he hadn't gotten into that motorcycle accident, though he seems "Ok" now, I guess.

I'm sure pittsburgh's dominant defense has nothing to do with big ben's success in getting to afc championship games. Don't get me wrong, he's a good qb, but he's not peyton manning or tom brady. It isn't like he single-handedly wins games week after week. He doesn't have to. He played well against the chargers, but truth be told, the chargers defense was ATROCIOUS this year.

Roethlisberger is a game manager. Thing is, he probably wouldn't be much of an improvement here. The talent around him is similar to the talent we have here, slightly better receivers, slightly worse o-line, and he threw for 4 more tds total and 4 more ypg than Campbell. He also had 15 more turnovers than Campbell.

So if the question is "would you rather have an above average game manager qb or one of the few playmaking safeties in the league?" Then I'd have to go with the latter. It's a simple choice.

[The Sisko]

Some of you have spoken derisively about the BPA strategy as though it's a one way ticket to mediocrity. In fact, drafting solely for need will get you that result much more quickly.

In the abstract, look at it this way. Say you consistently draft players with a 90 score because you have a need at X position when players with a 96 or 97 rating available. Over time, you'll end up with your needs filled but with guys that are less talented than the opposition.

But what of specific examples? Look no further than our own Skins. We took Landry even though we had the best S in the league in ST. Taylor's untimely death highlights one reason for going BPA, ie uncertainty. Player's NFL careers can literally end overnight-though it's usually due to injury, not getting murdered.

The other example is the Rogers vs Merriman pick. Rogers is a solid NFL CB. Merriman is a monster who changes games and team's gameplans. Simply put, Los is good but Merriman is elite. Multiplied over several years, exchanging several Los caliber players for Merriman level players makes you a much stronger club.

Many of you have complained that going BPA may result in a glut of players at certain positions. Well, over time I think it's highly unlikely that happens. Team needs, your draft position, the types of players available in the draft from one year to the next and the strength of the FA pool all vary so much that I think it's just not likely that you should end up with a Millen-like scenario of being "forced" to take a WR every year. :doh:

Of course it all comes back to being able to consistently and accurately grade the talent available in the draft and I just don't think Snyderatto is very good at that.

[Neophyte]

That's reaching too far.

The problem here is that no one knows what is a reach and what isn't at the time. No one thought Leaf was a reach when SD took him #2. Does not look so good now though does it?

Would Horton have been a reach last year if the Skins had taken him in the 3rd or 4th? Many would have said so on draft day but a year later he looks a first round talent.

So spare me the "reach" stuff. No one knows.

[No Excuses]

James Laurinaitis would be a great pick

[SkinsAllDay34]

I agree that best case scenerio is that we trade back. If we had to pick at 13, don't forget about Rey Maualuga, Aaron Curry, and Michael Johnson.

Trade back and add Brian Cushing, Alex Mack, ? Unger, and Eben Britton to the list.

Also dont forget about a guy named Brandon Spikes. Dude is a monster that i have mentioned before. He is a MLB but he has good speed an plays all over the place. He can probably be an OLB but he reminds me of Jerrod Mayo. He hits like a "mack truck" and has GREAT instincts and awareness. I dont know about his coverage skills but he is said to be a top 5 LB in this draft.

At 13 other than Oline:

LB: Maualuga, Spikes, Sintim (reach?), Curry(gone probably)

WR: Crabtree (gone probably), Maclin (going to probably be there)

RB: Wells (i still have ??? about him), I would take spiller in the 2nd round

DE: Everette Brown (speed rusher but he is relentless), Orakpo (might fall and is a beast), Jerry Hughes (GREAT speed rusher that can get to the passer)

Me personally, i think if we can get Haynesworth in FA and draft like Brown, Hughes, Michael Johnson, it would only signifcantly upgrade our O line.

I completely understand that we need o line depth but we might have something with Heyer and Jansen can be a backup. We can get depth in the later rounds + even a guy like Gross or Carney to fill the RT position.

If we go Hall, Haynesworth and Gross/Carney in FA + minor signings, then its wide open at 13. Rinehart will get his shot at guard most likely.

Possibley trade down to the 20s and a mid 2nd rounder (Miami ?) get Robinson and another D player in the 2nd or a guy like Hayward Bey if he falls to the mid 2nd, or CJ spiller as the home run complment to portis.

[Oldfan]

The problem here is that no one knows what is a reach and what isn't at the time. No one thought Leaf was a reach when SD took him #2? Nobody thought so on draft day but now?

Would Horton have been a reach last year if the Skins had taken him in the 3rd or 4th? Many would have said so on draft day but a year later he looks a first round talent.

So spare me the "reach" stuff. No one knows.

The poster asked whether a player at a position of need, ranked by them in the mid-twenties, would be too far a reach if taken at #13. The Redskin RANKINGS are not an unknown factor to them, so your point is not relevant. They have to draft according to their grading system; and that's reaching too far for a team drafting the BPA plan.

[Mercuryrising]

I've been a student of QB mechanics for some time. The athleticism, combined with slick mechanics of a Jay Cutler takes about 15 minutes to spot. You never know about the mental aspects of the game, but I don't think that Jim Zorn will have any trouble evaluating QB talent in the draft.

A mopey, dopey, shaggy headed goof leads his team to 8-8 and he is the new benchmark for young QB's, but JC does it and he is a bust... I love this forum some days. SO many posters; so little sense.

This just in: Cutler has not done squat in the NFL!

[[[ghost]]]

James Laurinaitis would be a great pick

He's purely a MLB/ILB though. Mauluga, who plays MLB, is actually athletic enough to play OLB. Ideally, if we wanted to spend a 1st on an OLB (which isn't that outrageous), it should be towards Aaron Curry or Clint Stintim.

Curry should be the pick ONLY if at least Oher and Monroe are gone, and trading down is out of the question. That way, we still get a VERY good player (Curry is the best LB hands down in this draft), as well as we'd be addressing a need.

Stimtim would only be wise if we traded down. He's a good OLB, but he excels in Pass Rush. VERY few, if any, 4-3 OLBs specialize in Pass Rushing. The only one I can think of is Jack Ham, and he had a legendary DL helping him out.

A mopey, dopey, shaggy headed goof leads his team to 8-8 and he is the new benchmark for young QB's, but JC does it and he is a bust... I love this forum some days. SO many posters; so little sense.

This just in: Cutler has not done squat in the NFL!

I'm a HUGE Campbell Guy myself, but if Cutler and the Denver Offense had the Redskins Defense, they'd probably be the best team in the league this season, hands down. The only reason the Broncos were awful this year was because of their horrendous Defense.

[Cpt.Chaos47]

If Knowshon Moreno falls to 13 I could definately see us taking him. I hope to God if they don't address the Lines in FA they do it in the draft. If the Ravens don't resign or franchise Jason Brown and we don't target him hard I'll be pissed.

[HailGreen28]

Ordinarily I'd want the Skins to go straight BPA, except no safeties, TEs, and RBs. But really seems like our lines have been neglected, so hope Vinny drafts somewhat for need.

Therefore I wouldn't mind seeing Vinny get a non-lineman with our first pick, but CONSIDERING WE HAVE ONLY 4 PICKS GOING IN, (THANKS VINNY!:mad:), we better get some linemen too. At least a couple, maybe?:whoknows:

[wildbill1952]

What do you call 'ignoring'.

I call not getting quality OL ignoring. UDFA's are UDFA's for a reason. They were bypassed by 32 teams for 7 rounds. And then the Skins took them. Heyer and Geisinger both showed you how good they aren't.

No OL drafted past the third round has made a Redskin team in over 10 years. Why? Because they're not any good. Drafting two 3rd round picks in 10 years is not addressing the OLine. It's letting it die by starvation.

Year after year the same stupid statement "you can find good OL talent in the 5th and 6th rounds" has been shown to be garbage. At best, they become practice squad fodder. I challenge you to find, out of the 96 players who were drafted in the 5th, 6th or 7th rounds, one OL that remains with the team that drafted him. I'm sure there is one somewhere, but at best he's far down the depth chart. That is not addressing the OL, even by Vinny's stabndard.

On the other hand, want to guess how many of the first and second round OL picks are now starters for the teams that drafted them? The word 'all' works. Maybe not in game one, but by the end of the season they're all there. That's addressing the OL.

Drafting people who can't start is not addressing the OL. Don't even pretend it is.

[No Excuses]

];6047534']He's purely a MLB/ILB though. Mauluga' date=' who plays MLB, is actually athletic enough to play OLB. Ideally, if we wanted to spend a 1st on an OLB (which isn't that outrageous), it should be towards Aaron Curry or Clint Stintim.

Curry should be the pick ONLY if at least Oher and Monroe are gone, and trading down is out of the question. That way, we still get a VERY good player (Curry is the best LB hands down in this draft), as well as we'd be addressing a need.

Stimtim would only be wise if we traded down. He's a good OLB, but he excels in Pass Rush. VERY few, if any, 4-3 OLBs specialize in Pass Rushing. The only one I can think of is Jack Ham, and he had a legendary DL helping him out.[/quote']

I understand what your saying and I agree that Laurinitis is strictly a MLB. But the guy is going to be a perennial Pro Bowl player in this league. He might not make an impact this year because of Fletch being ahead of him but hes the type of player this team needs. A face for the franchise like Sean Taylor was becoming.

I like Mauluga too. Fiery player who sets a tone with his physical style.

I'm not a fan of drafting lineman in the first round unless they are offensive tackles. If you look around the league, a lot of the good to great defensive lineman are drafted all around the draft board. It's all about developing them rather than picking them high.

[Mursilis]

I've been a student of QB mechanics for some time. The athleticism, combined with slick mechanics of a Jay Cutler takes about 15 minutes to spot. You never know about the mental aspects of the game, but I don't think that Jim Zorn will have any trouble evaluating QB talent in the draft.

You seem to suggest evaluating QB talent is easier than the bust rate of the position indicates.