Thinking Skins Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I was just looking back at the 2008 Draft. I wanted a DL, but thought we still addressed a need by drafting WR (and TE :doh:). Now looking back, we have the following stats: Round 2 Phillip Merling (1 Sack) Trevor Laws (0 Sacks) Calais Campbell (0 Sacks) Quentin Groves (2.5 Sacks) Jason Jones (5 Sacks) Round 3 Kendall Langford (2 Sacks) Chris Ellis (0 Sacks) Pat Sims (1 Sack) Bryan Smith (0 Sacks) Andre Fluellen (0 Sacks) Marcus Harrison (2 Sacks) The guys we were spending a lot of time looking at and debating over (Laws, Merling, Campbell, Groves) didn't do much this year. Jones was a guy who had a good year, but he's playing on a line with Haynesworth. That being said, it seems that a lot of DEs seem to break out in their second or third years (similar to WRs). But at least none of the guys we passed on won defensive rookie of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HitStickTaylor21 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I'm happy we passed on those guys, but I'm even happier we didn't take Alan Branch at #6 two years ago, like some people here wanted. The guy slipped into the 2nd round and hasn't done anything with the Cardinals (who have bombed on Branch, Gabe Watson and Calais Campbell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefinonhaze Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 But wait, I thought Vinny was an idiot and the people on this board were better GM's?:doh: I'm glad we got some young Wr's which take a while to groom anyway. Doesn't look lke the D-lineman turned out to be so great after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Going back to 2007 though (when we drafted Landry), I wanted Okoye. Jamaal Anderson has 2 sacks over his career. Okoye has 6.5 sacks over his career (5.5 last year, 1 this year) Adam Carriker has 2 sacks over his career. Justin Harrell has 0 sacks over his career. Jarvis Moss has 3.5 sacks over his career (1 last year, 2.5 this year) Anthony Spencer has 4.5 sacks over his career (3 last year, 1.5 this year). And thats all the DEs and DTs that were taken in the 1st round 2 years ago. It doesn't seem like any are just blowing up the league in stats just yet. I understand stats can be overrated, but is it possible that Vinny knows what he's doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire3fighter4 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 It's a little early to really be judging..Mario Williams wasn't that great his rookie year(4.5 sacks), and look at him now..(14 last year, 12 this year) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinklein Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 But wait, I thought Vinny was an idiot and the people on this board were better GM's?:doh:I'm glad we got some young Wr's which take a while to groom anyway. Doesn't look lke the D-lineman turned out to be so great after all. Well this doesn't change Vinny's idiocy...that's about as constant as the sun by day and the moon by night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire3fighter4 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Going back to 2007 though (when we drafted Landry), I wanted Okoye. Jamaal Anderson has 2 sacks over his career. Okoye has 6.5 sacks over his career (5.5 last year, 1 this year) Adam Carriker has 2 sacks over his career. Justin Harrell has 0 sacks over his career. Jarvis Moss has 3.5 sacks over his career (1 last year, 2.5 this year) Anthony Spencer has 4.5 sacks over his career (3 last year, 1.5 this year). And thats all the DEs and DTs that were taken in the 1st round 2 years ago. It doesn't seem like any are just blowing up the league in stats just yet. I understand stats can be overrated, but is it possible that Vinny knows what he's doing? Okoye has battled injuries which has held him back...but with him just turning 21 he has a LONG way to go. Carriker went from being a nose tackle to an under tackle and hasn't really been able to be successful. Moss has just been a straight up disappointment. and no. Vinny is an idiot. He's never been that bad of a drafter when it comes to evaluating draft talent(although I don't even know if he's the lead guy on doing that..), he's just an idiot for signing over the hill vets, giving up picks, and making dumb moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squatch66 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 vinny is not an idiot. he is good at evaluating talent. he just needs to get over the whole notion that stud lineman can be picked up in the late rounds and stop giving away draft picks. and one other thing, three of those first rounders outplayed vernon gholston who barely saw the field this year. i remember that there were people last year that said if we drafted him he would solve all our line problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkekoa Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 The draft is just that ...it is a draft. Good college players don't exactly quantify into the NFL. Good coaching and good schemes that utilize players strengths make them good. One definite is you have to be good in the trenches and that is why drafting offensive linemen early makes things easier. That is one of the easier positions to truly judge out of college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. S Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 scheme matters a lot, maybe those guys aren't in the right scheme? Also, yes, you have to look back at the 2006 draft to see results. D-line has the longest learning curve. It's why I'm for drafting o-line high, followed by LB. Then draft some project d-linemen in the 3-5 rounds, maybe the 2nd if the talent is there. Osi Umenyiora and Justin Tuck both took a couple seasons to really show up. People like Julius Peppers or Mario Williams don't come around that often. Otherwise, almost every d-lineman has to be worked in, moreso during their 2nd season so they can start by their 3rd. Plus it should add fire to them to work harder after their rookie season when they know they can be more effective than some older/aging d-lineman on the decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 and no. Vinny is an idiot. He's never been that bad of a drafter when it comes to evaluating draft talent(although I don't even know if he's the lead guy on doing that..), he's just an idiot for signing over the hill vets, giving up picks, and making dumb moves. This makes no sense. He's pretty good at evaluating talent, but he's an idiot? What over the hill vets has he signed? I assume you're not talking about re-structuring our own players. The only pick Cerrato gave up I'd like to have back is the 2nd for Taylor and even that looked reasonably smart at the time. If Taylor had stayed healthy and on the field and registered, say, 7-8 sacks, the trade might look pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 vinny is not an idiot. he is good at evaluating talent. he just needs to get over the whole notion that stud lineman can be picked up in the late rounds and stop giving away draft picks.and one other thing, three of those first rounders outplayed vernon gholston who barely saw the field this year. i remember that there were people last year that said if we drafted him he would solve all our line problems. I think Cerrato's statement has been blown way out of proportion. We weren't in a position last year to draft a stud O-lineman anyway, so who knows what he'll do? Very good, longtime starting O-linemen do not have to be taken in the first round -- doesn't mean you never do it, but it's hardly necessary. If, for example, you're at #13 and looking at Michael Oher (T) or Aaron Curry (OLB) and you pick Curry -- even though the need for LB isn't quite as urgent as OL -- you probably made a wise decision. Either way, a highly defensible move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 It's a little early to really be judging..Mario Williams wasn't that great his rookie year(4.5 sacks), and look at him now..(14 last year, 12 this year) This is exactly right. It makes no more sense to judge the D-linemen picked in the first two rounds last year than it does to judge our receivers. Turns out Mario Williams, thus far, was the right pick over Reggie Bush. Before we label our second rounders busts, let's take a deep breath and think first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooley4President Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 People forget that Vinny's background is in scouting if I remember correctly and he has drafted some good players in his day. His problems include giving away picks, drafting good players at puzzling draft positions, managing contracts, and constructing a roster. It's not like we're the Lions or a team with NO talent, our talent just seems to not be built around a vision, rather haphazardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think the only thing you can say for sure is that it takes a while for most rookies to produce. It is hard to say from the numbers who will end up being pretty good and who will be busts. That goes for our rookies as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 People forget that Vinny's background is in scouting if I remember correctly and he has drafted some good players in his day. His problems include giving away picks, drafting good players at puzzling draft positions, managing contracts, and constructing a roster. It's not like we're the Lions or a team with NO talent, our talent just seems to not be built around a vision, rather haphazardly. I think our offensive roster has a vision: Joe Gibbs' vision. Big, veteran linemen. Strong-armed QB. Workhorse RB. Fast H-back w/great hands. The issue is how do we make changes to reflect Zorn's vision? Problem is: Gibbs' loved vets, but vets are expensive and are close to being old. I don't put that on Cerrato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayAction Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think our offensive roster has a vision: Joe Gibbs' vision. Big, veteran linemen. Strong-armed QB. Workhorse RB. Fast H-back w/great hands. The issue is how do we make changes to reflect Zorn's vision? Problem is: Gibbs' loved vets, but vets are expensive and are close to being old. I don't put that on Cerrato. We can debate what role Cerrato had in any of the player moves since Snyder bought the team. But, its clear that all of the personnel moves last year are his responsibility. He needs to fix the roster and make sure that resigned players aren't overpaid (regardless of Snyder's desire to negotiate the contracts). BTW - Mario Williams was a Casserly pick. The DE/DT picked in rounds 2/3 shouldn't be considered a flop if they had only 1-2 sacks. The question is whether they would be an improvement over the DE/DTs on the Skins roster. Our old 8 million DE (that cost a second round pick in this years draft) didn't do much better. The young DE would have been with the Skins for at least 4-5 years while Taylor may be one year and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooley4President Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think our offensive roster has a vision: Joe Gibbs' vision. Big, veteran linemen. Strong-armed QB. Workhorse RB. Fast H-back w/great hands. The issue is how do we make changes to reflect Zorn's vision? Problem is: Gibbs' loved vets, but vets are expensive and are close to being old. I don't put that on Cerrato. Very good point, we do have roster building to do with Zorn's vision. But I don't think Cerrato is without fault for the current state of our roster. Gibbs was given 1/3 of the personnel say and he definitely had a big hand in deciding who we could acquire to play on Sundays. I feel Cerrato should have been protecting our interests for the future by placing a value on young guys and depth, neither of which has been done. We're left with a roster of Gibbs guys who could play in 2004 when he got them but who are old now and we have no contingency plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I definitely think Gibbs had more than a third of the personnel say when he was here during Gibbs II, but I don't have any evidence to that effect. I have read and heard from a number of sources that Cerrato was against both the Archuleta and Duckett moves, but had little ammo b/c he didn't have any real decisionmaking authority. True or not, we can begin to judge Cerrato by 2008's moves. I think some of what he did -- expanding our number of draft choices and staying out of an overpriced, undertalented free agent class -- were smart, other things -- trading a 2nd rounder for Taylor -- not so helpful. I liked a bunch of his draft picks, was wary of others (as we have said, though, one season does not give us much basis for evaluation), and am curious to see what he does this off-season. The team needs to shift to one that reflects Zorn's coaching philosophy (at least on offense) and I do think the receiver choices in '08 were done for exactly that purpose. Whether they work out or not is anyone's guess, but there are no guarantees in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 One way we could really increase sacks is by blitzing more often, and to me this may be a bigger reason for our lack of sacks than the personnel we have in there on the DL. I wish I could get the stats on how many times we blitzed a 5th or 6th man this season and I guarantee it would be close to the bottom of the league. Just watchiing the games, we sent a lot of 4-man rushes all season. The teams with the highest sack totals are teams that send a lot of LB/CB/S blitzes. We have a great secondary so I don't understand why we don't try it more. Maybe it's lack of personnel? Marcus Washington and Shawn Springs were injured for most of the season and they have been some of the top blitzers on this team in the past. We have other guys too though. Landry is great at blitzing the QB, Rocky McIntosh has the size to mow through the line from a running start, Jason Taylor should be moved back to LB on more passing situations and blitzed he had a lot of success in Miami doing that. Maybe we should seriously consider drafting a great blitzing LB somewhere in the first 3 rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I still think DeSean Jackson would've been more valuable then Davis, Thomas, or Kelly. Jackson may be a bit small for the NFL, but he has a huge heart and amazing speed. I'd love to see him as our PR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooley4President Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I definitely think Gibbs had more than a third of the personnel say when he was here during Gibbs II, but I don't have any evidence to that effect. I have read and heard from a number of sources that Cerrato was against both the Archuleta and Duckett moves, but had little ammo b/c he didn't have any real decisionmaking authority. Well I was basing the 1/3 personnel say on the fact that whenever they talked about how personnel decisions were made, they would all say it was a 3 person operation with Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder. I think it's safe to say that Gibbs and Cerrato had more than Snyder, but I don't know if one had more than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooley4President Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I still think DeSean Jackson would've been more valuable then Davis, Thomas, or Kelly. Jackson may be a bit small for the NFL, but he has a huge heart and amazing speed. I'd love to see him as our PR. I think if we would have drafted Jackson there would have been a revolt. All we wanted last year were tall WRs, and Jackson is small/fast/elusive in the Moss mold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 One way we could really increase sacks is by blitzing more often, and to me this may be a bigger reason for our lack of sacks than the personnel we have in there on the DL. I wish I could get the stats on how many times we blitzed a 5th or 6th man this season and I guarantee it would be close to the bottom of the league. Just watchiing the games, we sent a lot of 4-man rushes all season. The teams with the highest sack totals are teams that send a lot of LB/CB/S blitzes. We have a great secondary so I don't understand why we don't try it more. Maybe it's lack of personnel? Marcus Washington and Shawn Springs were injured for most of the season and they have been some of the top blitzers on this team in the past. We have other guys too though. Landry is great at blitzing the QB, Rocky McIntosh has the size to mow through the line from a running start, Jason Taylor should be moved back to LB on more passing situations and blitzed he had a lot of success in Miami doing that. Maybe we should seriously consider drafting a great blitzing LB somewhere in the first 3 rounds? Actually, I think its been posted here that we were amongst the teams that blitzed the most often. But I do think we should consider looking at a blitzinf OLB (to go along with a DT to collapse the pocket). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think if we would have drafted Jackson there would have been a revolt. All we wanted last year were tall WRs, and Jackson is small/fast/elusive in the Moss mold. Exactly. I can't say I'm so much in favor of Davis and Kelly, but had we gotten another small WR, we would have all said that the team didn't need another Moss, ARE, or LLoyd. Hopefully we'll see our big WRs make an impact this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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